X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.123] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.1) with ESMTP id 5107624 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 18:12:16 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.123; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Return-Path: X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=UwuCiQyt7jHkjdoYW2VQEWtfJyhst2+aqhtsuVXDAZo= c=1 sm=0 a=gk6NwYfRVdgA:10 a=SC71y0a/4S6V9vjVxUojGA==:17 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=UKPAHat8AAAA:8 a=u2DQBsO_AAAA:8 a=N8B9JuSIAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=W-0XVR4try3X6BM7AFsA:9 a=Gj9__I-yYgCq0EYFcQsA:7 a=pILNOxqGKmIA:10 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=7god_763jbgA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=gzuFOevYRjekiaJI:21 a=LqrVunm1Ir25n-ft:21 a=28ZUu9Wc1W-LdCRC9x4A:9 a=BPS2ytwt5sBw5vmOyH0A:7 a=tXsnliwV7b4A:10 a=RNBde1CvG63RwvPa:21 a=SC71y0a/4S6V9vjVxUojGA==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 174.110.175.135 Received: from [174.110.175.135] ([174.110.175.135:52288] helo=EdPC) by cdptpa-oedge04.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id E5/F0-15749-B9E0C5E4; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 22:11:39 +0000 Message-ID: <20C24F8855CE425A90E0F272DD755BBE@EdPC> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: How to tune with ADI? Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 18:09:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0060_01CC6676.CDDE8C30" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0060_01CC6676.CDDE8C30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks, Mark, Interesting, I was wondering about that. I was told (way back when) = that the lead in gasoline would also kill the narrow band sensor after a = few seconds. It does apparently render it useless for it emission = control purposes in an auto due to in increase in the hysteresis of its = response curve. However, for just providing a voltage indicative of O2 = content of the exhaust - it still works fine. I have flown with 100LL 99% of the time since 1997 and have only needed = to replace the narrow band O2 once. So that puts another nail in the = EFISM WBO2 project. Ed From: Mark Steitle=20 Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 4:29 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: How to tune with ADI? David, =20 My wideband O2 sensor started acting up soon after I switched to 100LL. = I called the company rep to talk about a warranty replacement and he = said that leaded gas will kill the sensor (and offered to sell me = another sensor). I mentioned that there was nothing on their web site = that said not to use with leaded fuel and he (basically) said, "so = what". So, save your money if you're running 100LL.=20 Mark S.=20 On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 3:19 PM, David Leonard = wrote: Thanks Bobby, What number are you looking for for mixture? On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 7:24 AM, Bobby J. Hughes = wrote: David, Where are you injecting the water?=20 I am injecting into the plenum just before the throttle body and after = the intercooler. =20 Here are the few facts I think I know about water injections. 1.. Water is better for detonation prevention than an alcohol mix. = 2.. Alcohol mixture allows timing advance and more HP. Those are contradictory points. For, what is it that allows more = timing advance other than prevention of detonation. I think you mean = that water is better at cooling, but alcohols make up for it by = providing an apparent increase in fuel octane as well as cooling.=20 1.. Injection in the intake some distance before the engine block = =3D more cooling.=20 2.. Injection at the block =3D better detonation margin. what is the purpose of cooling other than improving detonation Margin? 1.. Windshield wiper fluid is a good alternative to dealing with = methanol. Usually about 40% alcohol. Not in Southern California. They sell blue stuff but I cant find any = rated below 20deg F (7%methanol). I even found one, a deep blue color, = going for $4/gal no less, that proudly proclaimed in big letters: = "Protects from freezing down to 32 degrees!"=20 Also a good wideband is very useful. = http://www.jdmpartswholesale.com/product/plx-dm-5-wideband-o2-52mm-displa= y-sm-afr-combo-black It=92s my most used instrument.=20 I Guess I should break down and get a WBO2 like the one you linked. = But that is an expensive sensor that I will probably burn out with = 100LL. Have you had any problems with 100LL? --=20 David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of David Leonard Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 10:24 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] How to tune with ADI?=20 Ok, So I have the new ADI system installed and working.... I think? Some of you smart racing guys probably have experience with ADI. Most of the instructions that come with tuning it are directed toward = car guys that have computers and knock sensors. All they do is turn the = system on and the computer allows more advance because I is not sensing = any knock. The only real advise I have so for for me is that I should = be running just less than the amount of ADI that it takes to bog down = the engine. My system is a fixed flow so I don't have much choice but = it seems to be about right. If I use straight water (which I did for = initial testing), the engine bogs after about 10-15 seconds of ruining = the ADI system. But when I uses a 50/50 mix of water and denatured = alcohol (too hard to find methanol around here, but close enough) the = engine does not bog. So assuming my amount of ADI injected is about right, now I am = supposed to be able to lean to better power and advance the timing a = little. But how much? For the last testing flight I was using EGT for = lack of a better guide. When the ADI comes on, my EGT drops by about 30 = deg C, and there is a hint of roughness to the engine. I can then lean = a little and the roughness clears up. For my test flight I leaned until = my EFT came back up to where I normally limit it (890 deg C). But if I = then add 5 more inches of MAP, there is still a hint of roughness even = at 890 deg and I get the sense that it wants to be leaned a little more. = But I am afraid to do that... We are talking 45" MAP and 7300 RPM here = (185 KTS indicated (Vne) and climbing at 500 fpm). =20 So here are my questions: Is EGT a useful tool here, and does leaning to get the EGT back to 890 = make any sense? Since Methanol will do such a good job at preventing detonation, is it = safe to lean further toward best power (peak EGT)? (note, that will be = hard on the turbo... I need to remember to bring the spare one to Reno) How much advance do you think i can add? I was previously ruining 5 = deg ahead of Tracy's recommended initial set up. Can't give a number = because the EC2 retards the timing with higher MAP's. How much, I have = not heard. I can easily add one deg at a time using Ed's EFI monitor. = But without a knock sensor am really in the blind. Thoughts? =20 --=20 David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net --=20 David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net ------=_NextPart_000_0060_01CC6676.CDDE8C30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks, Mark,
 
Interesting, I was wondering about that.  I = was told=20 (way back when) that the lead in gasoline would also kill the = narrow band=20 sensor after a few seconds.  It does apparently render it useless = for it=20 emission control purposes in an auto due to in increase in the = hysteresis of its=20 response curve.   However, for just providing a voltage = indicative=20 of O2 content of the exhaust - it still works = fine.
 
 I have flown with 100LL 99% of the time = since 1997=20 and have only needed to replace the narrow band O2 once.  So that = puts=20 another nail in the EFISM WBO2 project.
 
Ed

Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 4:29 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: How to tune with = ADI?

David, =20

My wideband O2 sensor started acting up soon after I switched to = 100LL.=20  I called the company rep to talk about a warranty replacement and = he said=20 that leaded gas will kill the sensor (and offered to sell me another = sensor).=20  I mentioned that there was nothing on their web site that said not = to use=20 with leaded fuel and he (basically) said, "so what".  So, save your = money=20 if you're running 100LL. 

Mark S. 

On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 3:19 PM, David Leonard = <wdleonard@gmail.com> = wrote:
Thanks Bobby,

What number are you looking for = for=20 mixture?

On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 7:24 AM, Bobby J. = Hughes <bhughes@qnsi.net> wrote:

David,

 

Where are = you=20 injecting the water?


I am injecting into the plenum just before the throttle body = and=20 after the intercooler.
 

Here are = the few=20 facts I think I know = about=20 water injections.

  1. Water is=20 better for detonation prevention than an alcohol=20 mix.=20
  2. Alcohol=20 mixture allows timing advance and more=20 HP.
Those are contradictory points.  For, what is it that allows = more=20 timing advance other than prevention of detonation.  I think you = mean=20 that water is better at cooling, but alcohols make up for it by = providing an=20 apparent increase in fuel octane as well as cooling.

  1. Injection in=20 the intake some distance before the engine block =3D more=20 cooling.=20
  2. Injection at=20 the block =3D better detonation=20 margin.
what is the purpose of cooling other than improving detonation=20 Margin?

  1. Windshield=20 wiper fluid is a good alternative to dealing with methanol. Usually = about=20 40% alcohol.
Not in Southern = California.  They=20 sell blue stuff but I cant find any rated below 20deg F = (7%methanol).  I=20 even found one, a deep blue color, going for $4/gal no less, that = proudly=20 proclaimed in big letters: "Protects from freezing down to 32 = degrees!"

 

 

Also a good = wideband=20 is very useful. http://www.jdmpartswholesale.com/product/plx-dm-5-wideban= d-o2-52mm-display-sm-afr-combo-black=20 It=92s my most used instrument.


I=20 Guess I should break down and get a WBO2 like the one you = linked.  But=20 that is an expensive sensor that I will probably burn out with = 100LL. =20 Have you had any problems with 100LL?


--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 = N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net

 

 

 

 

 

From: Rotary=20 motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of David = Leonard
Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 = 10:24=20 PM


To: Rotary motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] How to = tune with=20 ADI?

 

Ok,  So I have the new ADI system = installed and=20 working....  I think?

 

Some of you smart racing guys probably have = experience=20 with ADI.

 

Most of the instructions that come with = tuning it are=20 directed toward car guys that have computers and knock sensors.  = All they=20 do is turn the system on and the computer allows more advance because = I is not=20 sensing any knock.  The only real advise I have so for for me is = that I=20 should be running just less than the amount of ADI that it takes to = bog down=20 the engine.  My system is a fixed flow so I don't have much = choice but it=20 seems to be about right.  If I use straight water (which I did = for=20 initial testing), the engine bogs after about 10-15 seconds of ruining = the ADI=20 system.  But when I uses a 50/50 mix of water and denatured = alcohol (too=20 hard to find methanol around here, but close enough) the engine does = not=20 bog.

 

So assuming my amount of ADI injected is = about right,=20 now I am supposed to be able to lean to better power and advance the = timing a=20 little.  But how much?  For the last testing flight I was = using EGT=20 for lack of a better guide.  When the ADI comes on, my EGT drops = by about=20 30 deg C, and there is a hint of roughness to the engine.  I can = then=20 lean a little and the roughness clears up.  For my test flight I = leaned=20 until my EFT came back up to where I normally limit it (890 deg = C).  But=20 if I then add 5 more inches of MAP, there is still a hint of roughness = even at=20 890 deg and I get the sense that it wants to be leaned a little more. = But I am=20 afraid to do that...  We are talking 45" MAP and 7300 RPM here = (185 KTS=20 indicated (Vne) and climbing at 500 fpm).  =

 

So here are my = questions:

Is EGT a useful tool here, and does leaning = to get the=20 EGT back to 890 make any sense?

Since Methanol will do such a good job at = preventing=20 detonation, is it safe to lean further toward best power (peak EGT)? = (note,=20 that will be hard on the turbo...  I need to remember = to bring the=20 spare one to Reno)

How much advance do you think i can = add? =20 I was previously ruining 5 deg ahead of Tracy's recommended = initial=20 set up.  Can't give a number because the EC2 retards the = timing with=20 higher MAP's.  How much, I have not heard.  I can easily add = one deg=20 at a time using Ed's EFI monitor.  But without a knock sensor am = really=20 in the blind.

 

Thoughts? 

-- =
David=20 Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net

=



--
David Leonard

Turbo = Rotary RV-6=20 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net
=
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