Mailing List flyrotary@lancaironline.net Message #56454
From: Bobby J. Hughes <bhughes@qnsi.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: How to tune with ADI?
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 17:12:15 -0600
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>

 

Dave,

 

I make best power in the 13’s and I’m usually in the 11’s under boost for take-off. Once in stable climb I lean into the 12’s. I typically don’t run above 32” in cruise so I lean until I’m comfortable with intake temps or my targeted GPH. I only run water injection for take-off and initial climb.

 

Those are contradictory points.  For, what is it that allows more timing advance other than prevention of detonation.  I think you mean that water is better at cooling, but alcohols make up for it by providing an apparent increase in fuel octane as well as cooling.   – Yes that’s a better explanation. More time advance without alcohol is limited in producing extra HP?

what is the purpose of cooling other than improving detonation Margin?  -  Experiments during WWII with nozzle placement” supposedly” showed that pure water injected directly at the engine block was better for controlling detonation than injecting further upstream. But I have no idea where I read it. Somewhere while researching my system. Could be BS or have something to do with where the liquid state change occurs. In the cylinder or in the intake manifold. But it’s probably not relevant to our systems anyway.

 

Not in Southern California.  They sell blue stuff but I cant find any rated below 20deg F (7%methanol).  I even found one, a deep blue color, going for $4/gal no less, that proudly proclaimed in big letters: "Protects from freezing down to 32 degrees!"   Move to Texas! The taxes are lower and our blue stuff is still 80 proof.

 

 

 But that is an expensive sensor that I will probably burn out with 100LL.  Have you had any problems with 100LL? – I don’t burn a lot of 100LL so can’t say how long it will last. Mark S. purchased a different system and his failed very fast. Too fast in my opinion. My understanding is the sensors take a long time to fail but the signal response time becomes too slow for closed looped engine controllers to use. A slow response time in our systems should not cause problems as long as the controller didn’t flag it as an out of parameter condition and shutdown the gauge. We need to test Mark’s to see if the sensor is actually putting out the correct voltages or if the controller is just unhappy with the response time. You might check with Ross at http://www.sdsefi.com/. This is from his site.

 Bosch technical information states the useful service life of the sensor is 100,000 miles or 10 years. Leaded fuel is not recommended with any O2 sensor and will severely shorten the life of the sensor, lead content of .6 g/l drops life to around 10,000 miles. In real world use, it appears that sensor life is more in the range of 50,000 miles with unleaded fuel.  

For a chemical lead scavenger to extend the life of O2 sensors when using leaded fuels:
Website: www.decalinchemicals.com

So a minimum life span of 500-600 gallons of 100LL? I would also call the manufacture and verify how they handle a degraded signal in their software before purchasing any system. Let them know you will be running leaded fuel.

 

Bobby  

 

 


From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of David Leonard
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 2:20 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: How to tune with ADI?

 

Thanks Bobby,

What number are you looking for for mixture?

On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 7:24 AM, Bobby J. Hughes <bhughes@qnsi.net> wrote:

David,

 

Where are you injecting the water?


I am injecting into the plenum just before the throttle body and after the intercooler.
 

Here are the few facts I think I know about water injections.

  1. Water is better for detonation prevention than an alcohol mix.
  2. Alcohol mixture allows timing advance and more HP.

Those are contradictory points.  For, what is it that allows more timing advance other than prevention of detonation.  I think you mean that water is better at cooling, but alcohols make up for it by providing an apparent increase in fuel octane as well as cooling.

  1. Injection in the intake some distance before the engine block = more cooling.
  2. Injection at the block = better detonation margin.

what is the purpose of cooling other than improving detonation Margin?

  1. Windshield wiper fluid is a good alternative to dealing with methanol. Usually about 40% alcohol.

Not in Southern California.  They sell blue stuff but I cant find any rated below 20deg F (7%methanol).  I even found one, a deep blue color, going for $4/gal no less, that proudly proclaimed in big letters: "Protects from freezing down to 32 degrees!"

 

 

Also a good wideband is very useful. http://www.jdmpartswholesale.com/product/plx-dm-5-wideband-o2-52mm-display-sm-afr-combo-black It’s my most used instrument.

 

I Guess I should break down and get a WBO2 like the one you linked.  But that is an expensive sensor that I will probably burn out with 100LL.  Have you had any problems with 100LL?

 

--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net

 

 

 

 

 


From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of David Leonard
Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 10:24 PM


To: Rotary motors in aircraft

Subject: [FlyRotary] How to tune with ADI?

 

Ok,  So I have the new ADI system installed and working....  I think?

 

Some of you smart racing guys probably have experience with ADI.

 

Most of the instructions that come with tuning it are directed toward car guys that have computers and knock sensors.  All they do is turn the system on and the computer allows more advance because I is not sensing any knock.  The only real advise I have so for for me is that I should be running just less than the amount of ADI that it takes to bog down the engine.  My system is a fixed flow so I don't have much choice but it seems to be about right.  If I use straight water (which I did for initial testing), the engine bogs after about 10-15 seconds of ruining the ADI system.  But when I uses a 50/50 mix of water and denatured alcohol (too hard to find methanol around here, but close enough) the engine does not bog.

 

So assuming my amount of ADI injected is about right, now I am supposed to be able to lean to better power and advance the timing a little.  But how much?  For the last testing flight I was using EGT for lack of a better guide.  When the ADI comes on, my EGT drops by about 30 deg C, and there is a hint of roughness to the engine.  I can then lean a little and the roughness clears up.  For my test flight I leaned until my EFT came back up to where I normally limit it (890 deg C).  But if I then add 5 more inches of MAP, there is still a hint of roughness even at 890 deg and I get the sense that it wants to be leaned a little more. But I am afraid to do that...  We are talking 45" MAP and 7300 RPM here (185 KTS indicated (Vne) and climbing at 500 fpm). 

 

So here are my questions:

Is EGT a useful tool here, and does leaning to get the EGT back to 890 make any sense?

Since Methanol will do such a good job at preventing detonation, is it safe to lean further toward best power (peak EGT)? (note, that will be hard on the turbo...  I need to remember to bring the spare one to Reno)

How much advance do you think i can add?  I was previously ruining 5 deg ahead of Tracy's recommended initial set up.  Can't give a number because the EC2 retards the timing with higher MAP's.  How much, I have not heard.  I can easily add one deg at a time using Ed's EFI monitor.  But without a knock sensor am really in the blind.

 

Thoughts? 

--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net




--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net

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