X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-fx0-f52.google.com ([209.85.161.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.1) with ESMTPS id 5107529 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 16:30:07 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.161.52; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by fxd18 with SMTP id 18so4544361fxd.25 for ; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 13:29:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=EO8+NVIktiWKlr3phdfojJEyExpBYkOArRMudHx2JVg=; b=t/iDojyE+9tvEh54kq5jR+jDD6tM+v5aWKqTc0Mguo6+9EPQYrXicNNKt8FcN0DkRF rjGeAmKm4yYtK0YsGPdnpMJCvcpediV0tKf+3tTFItfta7/uU9jo262hNOYSNnsY1Y0Z 1CxcvfJc/wsAqm5Rr7PCKzGJLfGHKZmQqQ7n8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.99.91 with SMTP id t27mr7705778fan.56.1314649770350; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 13:29:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.74.129 with HTTP; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 13:29:30 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 15:29:30 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: How to tune with ADI? From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd1d73690d7ba04abaac023 --000e0cd1d73690d7ba04abaac023 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable David, My wideband O2 sensor started acting up soon after I switched to 100LL. I called the company rep to talk about a warranty replacement and he said tha= t leaded gas will kill the sensor (and offered to sell me another sensor). I mentioned that there was nothing on their web site that said not to use wit= h leaded fuel and he (basically) said, "so what". So, save your money if you're running 100LL. Mark S. On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 3:19 PM, David Leonard wrote: > Thanks Bobby, > > What number are you looking for for mixture? > > On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 7:24 AM, Bobby J. Hughes wrote= : > >> ** ** ** >> >> David,**** >> >> ** ** >> >> Where are you injecting the water? >> > > I am injecting into the plenum just before the throttle body and after th= e > intercooler. > > >> Here are the few facts *I think* I know about water injections.**** >> >> 1. Water is better for detonation prevention than an alcohol mix.**** >> 2. Alcohol mixture allows timing advance and more HP. >> >> Those are contradictory points. For, what is it that allows more timing > advance other than prevention of detonation. I think you mean that water= is > better at cooling, but alcohols make up for it by providing an apparent > increase in fuel octane as well as cooling. > > >> 1. Injection in the intake some distance before the engine block =3D >> more cooling.**** >> 2. Injection at the block =3D better detonation margin. >> >> what is the purpose of cooling other than improving detonation Margin? > > > 1. Windshield wiper fluid is a good alternative to dealing with > methanol. Usually about 40% alcohol. > > Not in Southern California. They sell blue stuff but I cant find any rat= ed > below 20deg F (7%methanol). I even found one, a deep blue color, going f= or > $4/gal no less, that proudly proclaimed in big letters: "Protects from > freezing down to 32 degrees!" > > > > > > Also a good wideband is very useful. > http://www.jdmpartswholesale.com/product/plx-dm-5-wideband-o2-52mm-displa= y-sm-afr-combo-blackIt=92s my most used instrument. > > > I Guess I should break down and get a WBO2 like the one you linked. But > that is an expensive sensor that I will probably burn out with 100LL. Ha= ve > you had any problems with 100LL? > > > -- > David Leonard > > Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY > http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net > http://RotaryRoster.net > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *David Leonard > *Sent:* Sunday, August 28, 2011 10:24 PM > > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] How to tune with ADI? > > > > Ok, So I have the new ADI system installed and working.... I think? > > > > Some of you smart racing guys probably have experience with ADI. > > > > Most of the instructions that come with tuning it are directed toward car > guys that have computers and knock sensors. All they do is turn the syst= em > on and the computer allows more advance because I is not sensing any knoc= k. > The only real advise I have so for for me is that I should be running jus= t > less than the amount of ADI that it takes to bog down the engine. My sys= tem > is a fixed flow so I don't have much choice but it seems to be about righ= t. > If I use straight water (which I did for initial testing), the engine bog= s > after about 10-15 seconds of ruining the ADI system. But when I uses a > 50/50 mix of water and denatured alcohol (too hard to find methanol aroun= d > here, but close enough) the engine does not bog. > > > > So assuming my amount of ADI injected is about right, now I am supposed t= o > be able to lean to better power and advance the timing a little. But how > much? For the last testing flight I was using EGT for lack of a better > guide. When the ADI comes on, my EGT drops by about 30 deg C, and there = is > a hint of roughness to the engine. I can then lean a little and the > roughness clears up. For my test flight I leaned until my EFT came back = up > to where I normally limit it (890 deg C). But if I then add 5 more inche= s > of MAP, there is still a hint of roughness even at 890 deg and I get the > sense that it wants to be leaned a little more. But I am afraid to do > that... We are talking 45" MAP and 7300 RPM here (185 KTS indicated > (Vne) and climbing at 500 fpm). > > > > So here are my questions: > > Is EGT a useful tool here, and does leaning to get the EGT back to 890 ma= ke > any sense? > > Since Methanol will do such a good job at preventing detonation, is it sa= fe > to lean further toward best power (peak EGT)? (note, that will be hard on > the turbo... I need to remember to bring the spare one to Reno) > > How much advance do you think i can add? I was previously ruining 5 deg > ahead of Tracy's recommended initial set up. Can't give a number because > the EC2 retards the timing with higher MAP's. How much, I have not heard= . > I can easily add one deg at a time using Ed's EFI monitor. But without a > knock sensor am really in the blind. > > > > Thoughts? > > -- > David Leonard > > Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY > http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net > http://RotaryRoster.net > >> > > > -- > David Leonard > > Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY > http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net > http://RotaryRoster.net > --000e0cd1d73690d7ba04abaac023 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable David,=A0

My wideband O2 sensor started acting up soon a= fter I switched to 100LL. =A0I called the company rep to talk about a warra= nty replacement and he said that leaded gas will kill the sensor (and offer= ed to sell me another sensor). =A0I mentioned that there was nothing on the= ir web site that said not to use with leaded fuel and he (basically) said, = "so what". =A0So, save your money if you're running 100LL.=A0=

Mark S.=A0

On Mon, Au= g 29, 2011 at 3:19 PM, David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks Bobby,

What number are you looking for for mixture?

On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 7:24 AM, Bobby J. Hughes <= span dir=3D"ltr"><= bhughes@qnsi.net> wrote:

David,

=A0<= /span>

Where are you inje= cting the water?


I am i= njecting into the plenum just before the throttle body and after the interc= ooler.
=A0

Here are the few facts I think I = know about water injections.

  1. Water is better for detonation prevention than an alcohol mix.=
  2. Alcoho= l mixture allows timing advance and more HP.
Those are contradictory points.=A0 For, what is i= t that allows more timing advance other than prevention of detonation.=A0 I= think you mean that water is better at cooling, but alcohols make up for i= t by providing an apparent increase in fuel octane as well as cooling.

  1. Injecti= on in the intake some distance before the engine block =3D more cooling.<= u>
  2. Inject= ion at the block =3D better detonation margin.
what is the purpose of cooling other than improvi= ng detonation Margin?

  1. Windshiel= d wiper fluid is a good alternative to dealing with methanol. Usually ab= out 40% alcohol.
Not in Southern California.=A0 The= y sell blue stuff but I cant find any rated below 20deg F (7%methanol).=A0 = I even found one, a deep blue color, going for $4/gal no less, that proudly= proclaimed in big letters: "Protects from freezing down to 32 degrees= !"

=A0<= /p>

=A0<= /p>

Also a good wideband= is very useful. http://ww= w.jdmpartswholesale.com/product/plx-dm-5-wideband-o2-52mm-display-sm-afr-co= mbo-black It=92s my most used instrument.


I Guess I should br= eak down and get a WBO2 like the one you linked.=A0 But that is an expensiv= e sensor that I will probably burn out with 100LL.=A0 Have you had any prob= lems with 100LL?


<= span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">

--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY=
http://N4VY.Rota= ryRoster.net
h= ttp://RotaryRoster.net

=A0

=A0<= /p>

=A0<= /p>

=A0<= /p>

=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:fl= yrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of David Leonard
Sent: Sunday, August 28, 201= 1 10:24 PM


To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] How to tune with ADI?

=A0

Ok,=A0 So I have the new ADI system installed and wo= rking....=A0 I think?

=A0

Some of you smart racing guys probably have experien= ce with ADI.

=A0

Most of the instructions that come with tuning it ar= e directed toward car guys that have computers and knock sensors.=A0 All they do is turn the system on and the computer allows more advance because I is not sensing any knock.=A0 The only real advise I have so for for me is that I should be running just less than the amount of ADI that it takes to bog down the engine.=A0 My system is a fixed flow so I don't have much choice but it seems to be about right.=A0 If I use straight water (which I did for initia= l testing), the engine bogs after about 10-15 seconds of ruining the ADI system.=A0 But when I uses a 50/50 mix of water and denatured alcohol (too hard to find methanol around here, but close enough) the engine does not bo= g.

=A0

So assuming my amount of ADI injected is about right= , now I am supposed to be able to lean to better power and advance the timing a little.=A0 But how much?=A0 For the last testing flight I was using EGT for lack of a better guide.=A0 When the ADI comes on, my EGT drops by about 30 deg C, and there is a hint of roughness to the engine.=A0 I can then lean a little and the roughness clears up.=A0 For my test flight I leaned until my EFT came back up to where I normally limit it (890 deg C).=A0 But if I then add 5 more inches of MAP, there is still a hint of roughness even at 890 deg and = I get the sense that it wants to be leaned a little more. But I am afraid to = do that...=A0 We are talking 45" MAP and 7300 RPM here (185 KTS indicated (Vne)=A0and climbing at 500 fpm).=A0

=A0

So here are my questions:

Is EGT a useful tool here, and does leaning to get t= he EGT back to 890 make any sense?

Since Methanol will do such a good job at preventing= detonation, is it safe to lean further toward best power (peak EGT)? (note, that will be hard= on the turbo...=A0 I need to remember to=A0bring the spare one to Reno)=

How much advance do you think i can add?=A0 I=A0was previously=A0ruining 5 deg ahead of Tracy's recommended initial set up.=A0 Can't give a number=A0because the EC2 retards the timing with higher MAP's.=A0 How much, I have not heard.=A0= I can easily add one deg at a time using Ed's EFI monitor.=A0 But without= a knock sensor am really in the blind.

=A0

Thoughts?=A0

--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.Rota= ryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.n= et




-- David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net<= br>

--000e0cd1d73690d7ba04abaac023--