X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-fx0-f52.google.com ([209.85.161.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.1) with ESMTPS id 5107518 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 16:20:22 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.161.52; envelope-from=wdleonard@gmail.com Received: by fxd18 with SMTP id 18so4536749fxd.25 for ; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 13:19:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=VNaT/8OBOtkKdlgQj/H34FMYsMndxRkiuELyRv4fZN4=; b=w1NFLzKRdtWzIu5+Bizqay+z4XXd4Pgi+B6I4fAvFI7ERfung7P/OccFU85GIpPt+L XjHldfoUgOQSPQekaptFUif0gQPIDWmt85pZYhX9KwOi5jhb8HPTx7eSaznQKFkX3D6J MVeNz7aZ9hKnnAk69fXshx93Fl1lL5YAShGMg= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.24.21 with SMTP id t21mr7650237fab.24.1314649174994; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 13:19:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.74.202 with HTTP; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 13:19:34 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 13:19:34 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: How to tune with ADI? From: David Leonard To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174023a8146e8004abaa9d27 --0015174023a8146e8004abaa9d27 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Bobby, What number are you looking for for mixture? On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 7:24 AM, Bobby J. Hughes wrote: > ** ** ** > > David,**** > > ** ** > > Where are you injecting the water? > I am injecting into the plenum just before the throttle body and after the intercooler. > Here are the few facts *I think* I know about water injections.**** > > 1. Water is better for detonation prevention than an alcohol mix.**** > 2. Alcohol mixture allows timing advance and more HP. > > Those are contradictory points. For, what is it that allows more timing advance other than prevention of detonation. I think you mean that water i= s better at cooling, but alcohols make up for it by providing an apparent increase in fuel octane as well as cooling. > 1. Injection in the intake some distance before the engine block =3D m= ore > cooling.**** > 2. Injection at the block =3D better detonation margin. > > what is the purpose of cooling other than improving detonation Margin? 1. Windshield wiper fluid is a good alternative to dealing with methanol= . Usually about 40% alcohol. Not in Southern California. They sell blue stuff but I cant find any rated below 20deg F (7%methanol). I even found one, a deep blue color, going for $4/gal no less, that proudly proclaimed in big letters: "Protects from freezing down to 32 degrees!" Also a good wideband is very useful. http://www.jdmpartswholesale.com/product/plx-dm-5-wideband-o2-52mm-display-= sm-afr-combo-blackIt=92s my most used instrument. I Guess I should break down and get a WBO2 like the one you linked. But that is an expensive sensor that I will probably burn out with 100LL. Have you had any problems with 100LL? --=20 David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net ------------------------------ *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *On Behalf Of *David Leonard *Sent:* Sunday, August 28, 2011 10:24 PM *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft *Subject:* [FlyRotary] How to tune with ADI? Ok, So I have the new ADI system installed and working.... I think? Some of you smart racing guys probably have experience with ADI. Most of the instructions that come with tuning it are directed toward car guys that have computers and knock sensors. All they do is turn the system on and the computer allows more advance because I is not sensing any knock. The only real advise I have so for for me is that I should be running just less than the amount of ADI that it takes to bog down the engine. My syste= m is a fixed flow so I don't have much choice but it seems to be about right. If I use straight water (which I did for initial testing), the engine bogs after about 10-15 seconds of ruining the ADI system. But when I uses a 50/50 mix of water and denatured alcohol (too hard to find methanol around here, but close enough) the engine does not bog. So assuming my amount of ADI injected is about right, now I am supposed to be able to lean to better power and advance the timing a little. But how much? For the last testing flight I was using EGT for lack of a better guide. When the ADI comes on, my EGT drops by about 30 deg C, and there is a hint of roughness to the engine. I can then lean a little and the roughness clears up. For my test flight I leaned until my EFT came back up to where I normally limit it (890 deg C). But if I then add 5 more inches of MAP, there is still a hint of roughness even at 890 deg and I get the sense that it wants to be leaned a little more. But I am afraid to do that... We are talking 45" MAP and 7300 RPM here (185 KTS indicated (Vne) and climbing at 500 fpm). So here are my questions: Is EGT a useful tool here, and does leaning to get the EGT back to 890 make any sense? Since Methanol will do such a good job at preventing detonation, is it safe to lean further toward best power (peak EGT)? (note, that will be hard on the turbo... I need to remember to bring the spare one to Reno) How much advance do you think i can add? I was previously ruining 5 deg ahead of Tracy's recommended initial set up. Can't give a number because the EC2 retards the timing with higher MAP's. How much, I have not heard. I can easily add one deg at a time using Ed's EFI monitor. But without a knock sensor am really in the blind. Thoughts? --=20 David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net > --=20 David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net --0015174023a8146e8004abaa9d27 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Bobby,

What number are you looking for for mixture?

On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 7:24 AM, Bobby J. Hughes <= span dir=3D"ltr"><bhughes@qnsi.net> wrote:

David,

=A0<= /span>

Where are you inje= cting the water?


I am i= njecting into the plenum just before the throttle body and after the interc= ooler.
=A0

Here are the few facts I think I = know about water injections.

  1. Water is better for detonation prevention than an alcohol mix.=
  2. Alcoho= l mixture allows timing advance and more HP.
Those are contradictory points.=A0 For, what is i= t that allows more timing advance other than prevention of detonation.=A0 I= think you mean that water is better at cooling, but alcohols make up for i= t by providing an apparent increase in fuel octane as well as cooling.

  1. Injecti= on in the intake some distance before the engine block =3D more cooling.<= u>
  2. Inject= ion at the block =3D better detonation margin.
what is the purpose of cooling other than improvi= ng detonation Margin?

  1. Win= dshield wiper fluid is a good alternative to dealing with methanol. Usually ab= out 40% alcohol.
Not in Southern California.=A0 The= y sell blue stuff but I cant find any rated below 20deg F (7%methanol).=A0 = I even found one, a deep blue color, going for $4/gal no less, that proudly= proclaimed in big letters: "Protects from freezing down to 32 degrees= !"

=A0<= /p>

=A0<= /p>

Also a good wi= deband is very useful. htt= p://www.jdmpartswholesale.com/product/plx-dm-5-wideband-o2-52mm-display-sm-= afr-combo-black It=92s my most used instrument.


I Guess I sho= uld break down and get a WBO2 like the one you linked.=A0 But that is an ex= pensive sensor that I will probably burn out with 100LL.=A0 Have you had an= y problems with 100LL?


<= span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">

--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-= 6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.nethttp://RotaryRoster.net

=A0

=A0<= /p>

=A0<= /p>

=A0<= /p>

=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:fl= yrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of David Leonard
Sent: Sunday, August 28, 201= 1 10:24 PM


To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] How to tune with ADI?

=A0

Ok,=A0 So I have the new ADI system installed and wo= rking....=A0 I think?

=A0

Some of you smart racing guys probably have experien= ce with ADI.

=A0

Most of the instructions that come with tuning it ar= e directed toward car guys that have computers and knock sensors.=A0 All they do is turn the system on and the computer allows more advance because I is not sensing any knock.=A0 The only real advise I have so for for me is that I should be running just less than the amount of ADI that it takes to bog down the engine.=A0 My system is a fixed flow so I don't have much choice but it seems to be about right.=A0 If I use straight water (which I did for initia= l testing), the engine bogs after about 10-15 seconds of ruining the ADI system.=A0 But when I uses a 50/50 mix of water and denatured alcohol (too hard to find methanol around here, but close enough) the engine does not bo= g.

=A0

So assuming my amount of ADI injected is about right= , now I am supposed to be able to lean to better power and advance the timing a little.=A0 But how much?=A0 For the last testing flight I was using EGT for lack of a better guide.=A0 When the ADI comes on, my EGT drops by about 30 deg C, and there is a hint of roughness to the engine.=A0 I can then lean a little and the roughness clears up.=A0 For my test flight I leaned until my EFT came back up to where I normally limit it (890 deg C).=A0 But if I then add 5 more inches of MAP, there is still a hint of roughness even at 890 deg and = I get the sense that it wants to be leaned a little more. But I am afraid to = do that...=A0 We are talking 45" MAP and 7300 RPM here (185 KTS indicated (Vne)=A0and climbing at 500 fpm).=A0

=A0

So here are my questions:

Is EGT a useful tool here, and does leaning to get t= he EGT back to 890 make any sense?

Since Methanol will do such a good job at preventing= detonation, is it safe to lean further toward best power (peak EGT)? (note, that will be hard= on the turbo...=A0 I need to remember to=A0bring the spare one to Reno)=

How much advance do you think i can add?=A0 I=A0was previously=A0ruining 5 deg ahead of Tracy's recommended initial set up.=A0 Can't give a number=A0because the EC2 retards the timing with higher MAP's.=A0 How much, I have not heard.=A0= I can easily add one deg at a time using Ed's EFI monitor.=A0 But without= a knock sensor am really in the blind.

=A0

Thoughts?=A0

--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.Rota= ryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.n= et




--
David Leonard

Tu= rbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4V= Y.RotaryRoster.net
http://Rotary= Roster.net
--0015174023a8146e8004abaa9d27--