X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-gw0-f52.google.com ([74.125.83.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.1) with ESMTPS id 5107041 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 09:25:57 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=74.125.83.52; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by gwj15 with SMTP id 15so11315295gwj.25 for ; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 06:25:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=subject:references:from:content-type:x-mailer:in-reply-to :message-id:date:to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=voknVS/dPXEZ1SVvvJ6VbSz5qw2OTn9mHoyLAeAiKd8=; b=S/FurCm6vTHEBxAzk2OHLtm9UDTK6t+0ZY4sXaFHYPm17CWGpH/AqJMEXDpu8RO67O bebfOJhXyiHFyNWbL6S1tjzCyLmv+0a/3gNTtGKKkNKrbX3qKwlTUZifhVkSF12f480V MHh5HVFjJsFWjDbu7225VhLaSvz8dUnPplO0Q= Received: by 10.150.2.16 with SMTP id 16mr5114814ybb.333.1314624321447; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 06:25:21 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from [10.0.1.2] (99-197-145-127.cust.wildblue.net [99.197.145.127]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id u31sm1794365ybu.9.2011.08.29.06.25.08 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 29 Aug 2011 06:25:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: How to tune with ADI? References: From: Tracy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-70--837821912 X-Mailer: iPad Mail (8F191) In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <43D24892-CC16-4B4B-95E5-4F1C3398B0D6@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 09:24:56 -0400 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPad Mail 8F191) --Apple-Mail-70--837821912 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii What Ed said. There is a knock sensor input on the EC3 but after finding t= he same facts as Ed mentioned, it takes a lot more R&D to implement it so th= at's why it's currently unused. Tracy Sent from my iPad On Aug 29, 2011, at 8:33 AM, "Ed Anderson" wrote= : > The problem with Knock sensors is that they need to be able to identify t= he "knock" sound characteristic of the engine you have it on. The circuit i= s basically simple - the challenge is design the parameters of a signal filt= er that permits the circuit to properly identify (filter) the "Knock" charac= tertistic of your particular engine.=20 > =20 > So I would suggest that a knock system for a rotary might have different c= haracteristics than for a piston engine. So what might work fine for a pist= on engine might not work so well on a rotary. But, on the other hand it mig= ht work fine. > =20 > Ed >=20 > From: stevei@carey.asn.au > Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 3:45 AM > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: How to tune with ADI? >=20 > Hi Dave > If you are chasing a circuit for knock sensing try: > http://siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_108910/article.html >=20 > Cheers >=20 > Steve Izett > Perth WA > On 29/08/2011, at 12:24 PM, David Leonard wrote: >=20 >> Ok, So I have the new ADI system installed and working.... I think? >> =20 >> Some of you smart racing guys probably have experience with ADI. >> =20 >> Most of the instructions that come with tuning it are directed toward car= guys that have computers and knock sensors. All they do is turn the system= on and the computer allows more advance because I is not sensing any knock.= The only real advise I have so for for me is that I should be running just= less than the amount of ADI that it takes to bog down the engine. My syste= m is a fixed flow so I don't have much choice but it seems to be about right= . If I use straight water (which I did for initial testing), the engine bog= s after about 10-15 seconds of ruining the ADI system. But when I uses a 50= /50 mix of water and denatured alcohol (too hard to find methanol around her= e, but close enough) the engine does not bog. >> =20 >> So assuming my amount of ADI injected is about right, now I am supposed t= o be able to lean to better power and advance the timing a little. But how m= uch? For the last testing flight I was using EGT for lack of a better guide= . When the ADI comes on, my EGT drops by about 30 deg C, and there is a hin= t of roughness to the engine. I can then lean a little and the roughness cl= ears up. For my test flight I leaned until my EFT came back up to where I n= ormally limit it (890 deg C). But if I then add 5 more inches of MAP, there= is still a hint of roughness even at 890 deg and I get the sense that it wa= nts to be leaned a little more. But I am afraid to do that... We are talkin= g 45" MAP and 7300 RPM here (185 KTS indicated (Vne) and climbing at 500 fpm= ).=20 >> =20 >> So here are my questions: >> Is EGT a useful tool here, and does leaning to get the EGT back to 890 ma= ke any sense? >> Since Methanol will do such a good job at preventing detonation, is it sa= fe to lean further toward best power (peak EGT)? (note, that will be hard on= the turbo... I need to remember to bring the spare one to Reno) >> How much advance do you think i can add? I was previously ruining 5 deg a= head of Tracy's recommended initial set up. Can't give a number because the= EC2 retards the timing with higher MAP's. How much, I have not heard. I c= an easily add one deg at a time using Ed's EFI monitor. But without a knock= sensor am really in the blind. >> =20 >> Thoughts? =20 >>=20 >> --=20 >> David Leonard >>=20 >> Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY >> http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net >> http://RotaryRoster.net >=20 >=20 > The contents of this email are confidential and intended only for the name= d recipients of this e-mail. If you have received this e-mail in error, you a= re hereby notified that any use, reproduction, disclosure or distribution or= the information contained in this e-mail is prohibited. Please notify the s= ender immediately and then delete/destroy the e-mail and any printed copies.= All liability for viruses is excluded to the fullest extent of the law. --Apple-Mail-70--837821912 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
What Ed said.   There is a knock sensor input on the EC3 but after finding the same facts as Ed mentioned, it takes a lot more R&D to implement it so that's why it's currently unused.

Tracy

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 29, 2011, at 8:33 AM, "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com> wrote:

The problem with Knock sensors is that they need to be able to identify  the "knock" sound characteristic of the engine you have it on.  The circuit is basically simple - the challenge is design the parameters of a signal filter that permits the circuit to properly identify (filter) the "Knock" charactertistic of your particular engine. 
 
So I would suggest that a knock system for a rotary might have different characteristics than for a piston engine.  So what might work fine for a piston engine might not work so well on a rotary.  But, on the other hand it might work fine.
 
Ed

Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 3:45 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: How to tune with ADI?

Hi Dave
If you are chasing a circuit for knock sensing try:

Cheers

Steve Izett
Perth WA
On 29/08/2011, at 12:24 PM, David Leonard wrote:

Ok,  So I have the new ADI system installed and working....  I think?
 
Some of you smart racing guys probably have experience with ADI.
 
Most of the instructions that come with tuning it are directed toward car guys that have computers and knock sensors.  All they do is turn the system on and the computer allows more advance because I is not sensing any knock.  The only real advise I have so for for me is that I should be running just less than the amount of ADI that it takes to bog down the engine.  My system is a fixed flow so I don't have much choice but it seems to be about right.  If I use straight water (which I did for initial testing), the engine bogs after about 10-15 seconds of ruining the ADI system.  But when I uses a 50/50 mix of water and denatured alcohol (too hard to find methanol around here, but close enough) the engine does not bog.
 
So assuming my amount of ADI injected is about right, now I am supposed to be able to lean to better power and advance the timing a little.  But how much?  For the last testing flight I was using EGT for lack of a better guide.  When the ADI comes on, my EGT drops by about 30 deg C, and there is a hint of roughness to the engine.  I can then lean a little and the roughness clears up.  For my test flight I leaned until my EFT came back up to where I normally limit it (890 deg C).  But if I then add 5 more inches of MAP, there is still a hint of roughness even at 890 deg and I get the sense that it wants to be leaned a little more. But I am afraid to do that...  We are talking 45" MAP and 7300 RPM here (185 KTS indicated (Vne) and climbing at 500 fpm). 
 
So here are my questions:
Is EGT a useful tool here, and does leaning to get the EGT back to 890 make any sense?
Since Methanol will do such a good job at preventing detonation, is it safe to lean further toward best power (peak EGT)? (note, that will be hard on the turbo...  I need to remember to bring the spare one to Reno)
How much advance do you think i can add?  I was previously ruining 5 deg ahead of Tracy's recommended initial set up.  Can't give a number because the EC2 retards the timing with higher MAP's.  How much, I have not heard.  I can easily add one deg at a time using Ed's EFI monitor.  But without a knock sensor am really in the blind.
 
Thoughts? 

--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net


The contents of this email are confidential and intended only for the named recipients of this e-mail. If you have received this e-mail in error, you are hereby notified that any use, reproduction, disclosure or distribution or the information contained in this e-mail is prohibited. Please notify the sender immediately and then delete/destroy the e-mail and any printed copies. All liability for viruses is excluded to the fullest extent of the law.
--Apple-Mail-70--837821912--