X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.121] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.1) with ESMTP id 5106988 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 08:36:03 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.121; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Return-Path: X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=clOQl2Kon9ihL0vqe5S6shCOWnQ8eDPHG/StQ1omz74= c=1 sm=0 a=gk6NwYfRVdgA:10 a=SC71y0a/4S6V9vjVxUojGA==:17 a=OBoQRNBVAAAA:8 a=N8B9JuSIAAAA:8 a=AcOyJL-wvp8DvK32bn0A:9 a=fmB8qyLN-uBgYjQ7wVoA:7 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=pYEayob8caUA:10 a=EDW42x7qJy3ToSZs:21 a=hEUkIjD8zjj0PeBx:21 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=d82Ysw1NUueFirwem3MA:9 a=ChjsQlJYYhTAtCMpfHYA:7 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=SC71y0a/4S6V9vjVxUojGA==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 174.110.175.135 Received: from [174.110.175.135] ([174.110.175.135:50812] helo=EdPC) by cdptpa-oedge01.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id 64/37-15370-F878B5E4; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 12:35:28 +0000 Message-ID: <35824F56774447C2B51663AD6CB8C042@EdPC> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: How to tune with ADI? Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 08:33:21 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0027_01CC6626.4FB31AB0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01CC6626.4FB31AB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The problem with Knock sensors is that they need to be able to identify = the "knock" sound characteristic of the engine you have it on. The = circuit is basically simple - the challenge is design the parameters of = a signal filter that permits the circuit to properly identify (filter) = the "Knock" charactertistic of your particular engine. =20 So I would suggest that a knock system for a rotary might have different = characteristics than for a piston engine. So what might work fine for a = piston engine might not work so well on a rotary. But, on the other = hand it might work fine. Ed From: stevei@carey.asn.au=20 Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 3:45 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: How to tune with ADI? Hi Dave=20 If you are chasing a circuit for knock sensing try: http://siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_108910/article.html Cheers Steve Izett Perth WA On 29/08/2011, at 12:24 PM, David Leonard wrote: Ok, So I have the new ADI system installed and working.... I think? Some of you smart racing guys probably have experience with ADI. Most of the instructions that come with tuning it are directed toward = car guys that have computers and knock sensors. All they do is turn the = system on and the computer allows more advance because I is not sensing = any knock. The only real advise I have so for for me is that I should = be running just less than the amount of ADI that it takes to bog down = the engine. My system is a fixed flow so I don't have much choice but = it seems to be about right. If I use straight water (which I did for = initial testing), the engine bogs after about 10-15 seconds of ruining = the ADI system. But when I uses a 50/50 mix of water and denatured = alcohol (too hard to find methanol around here, but close enough) the = engine does not bog. So assuming my amount of ADI injected is about right, now I am = supposed to be able to lean to better power and advance the timing a = little. But how much? For the last testing flight I was using EGT for = lack of a better guide. When the ADI comes on, my EGT drops by about 30 = deg C, and there is a hint of roughness to the engine. I can then lean = a little and the roughness clears up. For my test flight I leaned until = my EFT came back up to where I normally limit it (890 deg C). But if I = then add 5 more inches of MAP, there is still a hint of roughness even = at 890 deg and I get the sense that it wants to be leaned a little more. = But I am afraid to do that... We are talking 45" MAP and 7300 RPM here = (185 KTS indicated (Vne) and climbing at 500 fpm). =20 So here are my questions: Is EGT a useful tool here, and does leaning to get the EGT back to 890 = make any sense? Since Methanol will do such a good job at preventing detonation, is it = safe to lean further toward best power (peak EGT)? (note, that will be = hard on the turbo... I need to remember to bring the spare one to Reno) How much advance do you think i can add? I was previously ruining 5 = deg ahead of Tracy's recommended initial set up. Can't give a number = because the EC2 retards the timing with higher MAP's. How much, I have = not heard. I can easily add one deg at a time using Ed's EFI monitor. = But without a knock sensor am really in the blind. Thoughts? =20 --=20 David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- The contents of this email are confidential and intended only for the = named recipients of this e-mail. If you have received this e-mail in = error, you are hereby notified that any use, reproduction, disclosure or = distribution or the information contained in this e-mail is prohibited. = Please notify the sender immediately and then delete/destroy the e-mail = and any printed copies. All liability for viruses is excluded to the = fullest extent of the law. ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01CC6626.4FB31AB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The problem with Knock sensors is that they need = to be=20 able to identify  the "knock" sound characteristic of the engine = you have=20 it on.  The circuit is basically simple - the challenge is design = the=20 parameters of a signal filter that permits the circuit to properly = identify=20 (filter) the "Knock" charactertistic of your particular = engine. =20
 
So I would suggest that a knock system for a = rotary might=20 have different characteristics than for a piston engine.  So what = might=20 work fine for a piston engine might not work so well on a rotary.  = But, on=20 the other hand it might work fine.
 
Ed

Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 3:45 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: How to tune with = ADI?

Hi Dave=20
If you are chasing a circuit for knock sensing try:
http://silic= onchip.com.au/cms/A_108910/article.html

Cheers

Steve Izett
Perth WA
On 29/08/2011, at 12:24 PM, David Leonard wrote:
Ok,  So I have the new ADI system installed and = working....  I=20 think?
 
Some of you smart racing guys probably have experience with = ADI.
 
Most of the instructions that come with tuning it are directed = toward car=20 guys that have computers and knock sensors.  All they do is turn = the=20 system on and the computer allows more advance because I is not = sensing any=20 knock.  The only real advise I have so for for me is that I = should be=20 running just less than the amount of ADI that it takes to bog down the = engine.  My system is a fixed flow so I don't have much choice = but it=20 seems to be about right.  If I use straight water (which I did = for=20 initial testing), the engine bogs after about 10-15 seconds of ruining = the ADI=20 system.  But when I uses a 50/50 mix of water and denatured = alcohol (too=20 hard to find methanol around here, but close enough) the engine does = not=20 bog.
 
So assuming my amount of ADI injected is about right, now I am = supposed=20 to be able to lean to better power and advance the timing a = little.  But=20 how much?  For the last testing flight I was using EGT for lack = of a=20 better guide.  When the ADI comes on, my EGT drops by about 30 = deg C, and=20 there is a hint of roughness to the engine.  I can then lean a = little and=20 the roughness clears up.  For my test flight I leaned until my = EFT came=20 back up to where I normally limit it (890 deg C).  But if I then = add 5=20 more inches of MAP, there is still a hint of roughness even at 890 deg = and I=20 get the sense that it wants to be leaned a little more. But I am = afraid to do=20 that...  We are talking 45" MAP and 7300 RPM here (185 KTS = indicated=20 (Vne) and climbing at 500 fpm). 
 
So here are my questions:
Is EGT a useful tool here, and does leaning to get the EGT back = to 890=20 make any sense?
Since Methanol will do such a good job at preventing detonation, = is it=20 safe to lean further toward best power (peak EGT)? (note, that will be = hard on=20 the turbo...  I need to remember to bring the spare one to=20 Reno)
How much advance do you think i can add?  I was=20 previously ruining 5 deg ahead of Tracy's recommended initial set = up.  Can't give a number because the EC2 retards the timing = with=20 higher MAP's.  How much, I have not heard.  I can easily add = one deg=20 at a time using Ed's EFI monitor.  But without a knock sensor am = really=20 in the blind.
 
Thoughts? 

--
David = Leonard

Turbo=20 Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.nethttp://RotaryRoster.net


The contents of this email are = confidential=20 and intended only for the named recipients of this e-mail. If you have = received=20 this e-mail in error, you are hereby notified that any use, = reproduction,=20 disclosure or distribution or the information contained in this e-mail = is=20 prohibited. Please notify the sender immediately and then delete/destroy = the=20 e-mail and any printed copies. All liability for viruses is excluded to = the=20 fullest extent of the law.
 ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01CC6626.4FB31AB0--