X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from imr-ma06.mx.aol.com ([64.12.78.142] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.1) with ESMTP id 5101781 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 23:40:27 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.78.142; envelope-from=shipchief@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-da05.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-da05.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.51.141]) by imr-ma06.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id p7O3dhov009696 for ; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 23:39:43 -0400 Received: from core-ddd004a.r1000.mail.aol.com (core-ddd004.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.29.52.205]) by mtaomg-da05.r1000.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id 1943BE0000A7 for ; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 23:39:43 -0400 (EDT) References: To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Pressure Survey (was oil premix data) In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: shipchief@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CE302698625C5C_1D34_25D09_webmail-m137.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 34047-STANDARD Received: from 98.247.174.242 by webmail-m137.sysops.aol.com (149.174.9.25) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Tue, 23 Aug 2011 23:39:42 -0400 Message-Id: <8CE30269851B2C3-1D34-C595@webmail-m137.sysops.aol.com> X-Originating-IP: [98.247.174.242] Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 23:39:42 -0400 (EDT) x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:450634336:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d338d4e54727f7d84 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ----------MB_8CE302698625C5C_1D34_25D09_webmail-m137.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I use Russell -8 Proflex hose (stainless outer braid) from the oil pump, to= the cooler, then to a firewall mounted Ford pattern oil filter mount with = a NAPA gold 1068 fliter. Then to the 13BT block. At the top of the block wh= ere the stock filter went, I made a manifold block from a chunk of aluminum= . this is where I tap oil pressure and temp. I used NAPA premium 10W-30 oil for initial break in. Hot oil pressure was s= omewhat low, at about 65 PSI at 3500 RPM and below 35 PSI at 2500 IIRC.I co= mmented on low pressure, and read advise from Tracy and others on this foru= m, At 4 hours I change L.O. & Filter, using Mobil 1 20W-50 V-twin motorcyc= le oil 'for engine, primary and transmission', At $10.49 per quart!! Oil pressure is now 75 PSI @ 4000 RPM @ 180 F. 35 PSI was now lower, about = 2000 RPM. I lose some oil pressure to the Turbo, although it has a restrict= ion at the inlet. I also have eccentric shaft oil jets (weber carb jets) and oil flow improve= d main bearings. So my enigne has a lot of internal oil leaks for supposed = High RPM service. I think I will try Mobil 1 15W-50 next time, which is $2 a quart cheaper. -----Original Message----- From: Ed Anderson To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:44 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Pressure Survey (was oil premix data) Kelly, =20 I use An-10 SS Braided for all the oil lines. =20 Ed From: Kelly Troyer=20 Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 10:59 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Oil Pressure Survey (was oil premix data) Ed, What is your hose size ?...........I might add for those that respond to i= nclude=20 hose size plus if pressure measurement is taken before or after oil filter = and cooler............. =20 Thanks, =20 Kelly Troyer "DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually) "13B ROTARY"_ Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo From: Ed Anderson To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 9:41 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fwd: oil premix data; info request I have a 13B block with eccentric shaft jets and remote oil filter. Above= 5000 rpm my pressure is 70 psi at propeller end after oil cooler and filte= r =20 Idle pressure is around 30-35 psi and climbs to 50 psi above 3500 rpm =20 Ed =20 Edward L. Anderson Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC 305 Reefton Road Weddington, NC 28104 http://www.andersonee.com http://www.eicommander.com From: Kelly Troyer=20 Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 10:25 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fwd: oil premix data; info request Might be interesting to hear from those flying what rpm it takes to see max= oil=20 pressure.............We have a multitude of oil system variations in the gr= oup and where you take your pressure measurement will have a direct bearing on the rpm needed for full pressure but if you take it from the far (propeller) en= d of the engine like Tracy we should be somewhat on the same page as far as the RPM needed for full pressure...............Everyone is lubing a redrive (RD1x f= or most) and some have the added lube requirements of eccentric shaft jets and/or a Turbocharger............... =20 =20 Kelly Troyer "DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually) "13B ROTARY"_ Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo From: Tracy To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 7:22 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fwd: oil premix data; info request To give an actual example of what Lynn described, the 20B installation in m= y RV-8 is plumbed with -8 oil lines. The oil requirements of the 20B is o= f course 50% more than the 13B and I still see full oil pressure at anythin= g over 3800 rpm and I'm measuring it at the far end of the oil galley in th= e engine. The only measure I took to improve oil flow was to clean up the= passages in the front housing oil passages near the oil pump. I did some measurements of pressure drops through the system and did see th= at the lines and fittings were dropping a significant amount of pressure so= I am pushing the lower limit of hose size and anything less would be a mis= take. I had some space and routing issues that made -10 lines problematic= , otherwise that's what I would have used. Tracy Sent from my iPad On Aug 21, 2011, at 1:37 AM, Lehanover@aol.com wrote: The oil pump produces a fixed volume tied to RPM. The output is a function = of the total resistance to flow of the system which is just about fixed, pl= us the pop setting of the relief valve, also fixed.=20 =20 So, if we do not include such things a viscosity changes, foaming, temperat= ure changes, suction side losses and all of the things that cloud the issue= , and just look at the flow, we see that unless there has been a very small h= ose or gallery size selected, the hose or gallery diameter and volume has n= o affect at all on pump output, total resistance, or temperature. So the bi= gger the hoses, in effect the closer you get to a static system where press= ure is uniform everywhere. The one effect of larger hoses we want is the lo= wer velocity of the oil. Drag increases at the square of velocity, so a sma= ll increase in diameter reduces the velocity and drag and also the amount o= f heat the pump puts into the oil.=20 =20 We are also adding some length of hose in excess of the stock system, with = more remote filtering and ideal cooler locations and similar, so the larger= hose diameter is of some benefit there.=20 =20 Suppose we have a 200 foot long oil hose in 12" diameter, and another in 1/= 8" diameter. Both are pressurized with the same size pump turning the same = RPM. We have pressure gages at the opposite end next to the relief valve wi= th the pop pressure set at 80 PSI. We also have pressure gages at the pump = end. Assume both volumes remain as at rest, what happens when we fire the p= umps together? =20 The large diameter version, the pump builds to just above 80 PSI and the re= lieve valve pops at the far end about a second later holding the full 80 PS= I in the tube, and dumping excess oil with gusto. =20 In the small diameter version, the pump builds up 150 PSI, and 3 seconds la= ter the relief valve pops at 80 PSI, but just dribbles oil.=20 =20 The larger system is a nearly static situation, while the smaller system is= a very dynamic situation.=20 =20 Lynn E. Hanover =20 No, I am not recommending 12" diameter oil hoses. =20 =20 =20 In a message dated 8/20/2011 1:25:20 P.M. Paraguay Standard Time, dale.rog@= gmail.com writes: Kelly, I know you asked Lynn, but ... Things to think about: the original oil system for the 13B was designed to = support two 10mm (~3/8") oil paths - one to the main bearings and one to th= e pressure regulator in the rear (flywheel end) iron. Any volume of oil tha= t exceeds the capacities of those paths will result in excessive oil pressu= re. Going to an external pressure regulator will solve that problem, but t= o what purpose? For any given pressure, going from a 3/8" line to 1/2" add= s 77% to the volume being pumped; going to a -10 (5/8") nearly triples the = oil flow; -12 (3/4") more than quadruples it - you end up pumping a lot of = oil - thereby adding heat to it - then cooling it and returning it directly= to the sump.=20 So, how much oil flow do you need for your turbo and re-drive? As much as = the engine itself? I rather suspect that having larger than -10 up to the = point where the oil supply splits to service the various components won't b= uy you any advantage except lower oil temps, and that is actually doubtful= . Dale_R COZY MkIV #0497 ----------MB_8CE302698625C5C_1D34_25D09_webmail-m137.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
I use Russell -8 Proflex hose (stainless outer braid) from the oil pum= p, to the cooler, then to a firewall mounted Ford pattern oil filter mount = with a NAPA gold 1068 fliter. Then to the 13BT block. At the top of the blo= ck where the stock filter went, I made a manifold block from a chunk of alu= minum. this is where I tap oil pressure and temp.
I used NAPA premium 10W-30 oil for initial break in. Hot oil pressure = was somewhat low, at about 65 PSI at 3500 RPM and below 35 PSI at 2500= IIRC.I commented on low pressure, and read advise from Tracy and othe= rs on this forum,  At 4 hours I change L.O. & Filter, using Mobil = 1 20W-50 V-twin motorcycle oil 'for engine, primary and transmission', At $= 10.49 per quart!!
Oil pressure is now 75 PSI @ 4000 RPM @ 180 F. 35 PSI was no= w lower, about 2000 RPM. I lose some oil pressure to the Turbo, although it= has a restriction at the inlet.
I also have eccentric shaft oil jets (weber carb jets) and oil flow im= proved main bearings. So my enigne has a lot of internal oil leaks for supp= osed High RPM service.
 I think I will try Mobil 1 15W-50 next ti= me, which is $2 a quart cheaper.


= -----Original Message-----
From: Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:44 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Pressure Survey (was oil premix data)

Kelly,
 
I use An-10 SS Braided  for all the oil lines.=
 
Ed

Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 10:59 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Oil Pressure Survey (was oil premix data)<= /div>

Ed,
 What is your h= ose size ?...........I might add for those that respond to include <= /div>
hose size plus if pr= essure measurement is taken before or after oil filter and
cooler.............<= /SPAN>
 
Thanks,
 
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

From: Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com> To: Rotary motors in aircra= ft <flyrotary@lancaironli= ne.net>
Sent: Sunday, August 21, 20= 11 9:41 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw= d: oil premix data; info request

 I have a 13B block with eccentric shaft jets = and remote oil filter.  Above 5000 rpm my pressure is 70 psi at propel= ler end after oil cooler and filter
 
Idle pressure is around 30-35 psi and climbs to 50 = psi above 3500 rpm
 
Ed
 
Edward L. Anderson
Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC
305 Reefton Road
Weddington, NC 28104
http:= //www.andersonee.com
http= ://www.eicommander.com

Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 10:25 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fwd: oil premix data; info request

Might be interesting to hear from those flying what rpm it takes= to see max oil
pressure.............We have a multitude of oil system variation= s in the group and
where you take your pressure measurement will have a direct bear= ing  on the
rpm needed for full pressure but if you take it from the far (pr= opeller) end of the
engine like Tracy we should be somewhat on the same page as far = as the RPM
needed for full pressure...............Everyone is lubing a redr= ive (RD1x for most)
and some have the added lube requirements of eccentric shaft jet= s and/or a
Turbocharger...............=
 
 
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

From: Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircra= ft <flyrotary@lancaironli= ne.net>
Sent: Sunday, August 21, 20= 11 7:22 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw= d: oil premix data; info request

To give an actual example of what Lynn described, the 20B installation= in my RV-8 is plumbed with -8 oil lines.   The oil requirements of th= e 20B is of course 50% more than the 13B and I still see full oil pressure = at anything over 3800 rpm and I'm measuring it at the far end of the oil ga= lley in the engine.   The only measure I took to improve oil flow was = to clean up the passages in the front housing oil passages near the oil pum= p.

I did some measurements of pressure drops through the system and did s= ee that the lines and fittings were dropping a significant amount of pressu= re so I am pushing the lower limit of hose size and anything less would be = a mistake.   I had some space and routing issues that made -10 lines p= roblematic, otherwise that's what I would have used.

Tracy


Sent from my iPad

On Aug 21, 2011, at 1:37 AM, Lehanover@aol.com wrote:

The oil pump produces a fixed volume tied to RPM. The output is a func= tion of the total resistance to flow of the system which is just about fixe= d, plus the pop setting of the relief valve, also fixed.
 
So, if we do not include such things a viscosity changes, foaming, tem= perature changes, suction side losses and all of the things that cloud the = issue,
and just look at the flow, we see that unless there has been a very sm= all hose or gallery size selected, the hose or gallery diameter and volume = has no affect at all on pump output, total resistance, or temperature. So t= he bigger the hoses, in effect the closer you get to a static system where = pressure is uniform everywhere. The one effect of larger hoses we want is t= he lower velocity of the oil. Drag increases at the square of velocity, so = a small increase in diameter reduces the velocity and drag and also the amo= unt of heat the pump puts into the oil.
 
We are also adding some length of hose in excess of the stock sys= tem, with more remote filtering and ideal cooler locations and similar= , so the larger hose diameter is of some benefit there.
 
Suppose we have a 200 foot long oil hose in 12" diameter, and another = in 1/8" diameter. Both are pressurized with the same size pump turning the = same RPM. We have pressure gages at the opposite end next to the relief val= ve with the pop pressure set at 80 PSI. We also have pressure gages at the = pump end. Assume both volumes remain as at rest, what happens when we fire = the pumps together?
 
The large diameter version, the pump builds to just above 80 PSI and t= he relieve valve pops at the far end about a second later holding the full = 80 PSI in the tube, and dumping excess oil with gusto.
 
In the small diameter version, the pump builds up 150 PSI, and 3 secon= ds later the relief valve pops at 80 PSI, but just dribbles oil.
 
The larger system is a nearly static situation, while the smaller syst= em is a very dynamic situation.
 
Lynn E. Hanover
 
No, I am not recommending 12" diameter oil hoses.
 
 
 
In a message dated 8/20/2011 1:25:20 P.M. Paraguay Standard Time, dale.rog@gmail.com wri= tes:
Kelly,

   I know you asked Lynn, but ...

Things to think about: the original oil system for the 13B was designed to = support two 10mm (~3/8") oil paths - one to the main bearings and one to th= e pressure regulator in the rear (flywheel end) iron. Any volume of oil tha= t exceeds the capacities of those paths will result in excessive oil pressu= re.  Going to an external pressure regulator will solve that problem, = but to what purpose?  For any given pressure, going from a 3/8" line t= o 1/2" adds 77% to the volume being pumped; going to a -10 (5/8") nearly tr= iples the oil flow; -12 (3/4") more than quadruples it - you end up pumping= a lot of oil - thereby adding heat to it - then cooling it and returning i= t directly to the sump.

So, how much oil flow do you need for your turbo and re-drive?  As muc= h as the engine itself?  I rather suspect that having larger than -10 = up to the point where the oil supply splits to service the various componen= ts won't buy you any advantage except lower oil temps, and  that is ac= tually doubtful.

Dale_R
COZY MkIV #0497





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