X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nm8-vm0.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.91.194] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.1) with SMTP id 5101383 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 15:09:24 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.91.194; envelope-from=roundrocktom@yahoo.com Received: from [98.139.91.62] by nm8.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Aug 2011 19:08:49 -0000 Received: from [98.139.91.56] by tm2.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Aug 2011 19:08:49 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1056.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Aug 2011 19:08:49 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 34994.74743.bm@omp1056.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 27904 invoked by uid 60001); 23 Aug 2011 19:08:48 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1314126528; bh=7ttt4ozPXONzNrW9yNxoXoaibI7gbDa60ybh4fLE61M=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=xO6Dlg+R0Co2wmm8MY7hairSHrF5+sk9r2GSLEstvOtC1af7K+O0JJF6ch6GLhW65uKCuK8grYrP1WjzWF984Gb8sSrCa64K0QnnAcz/kjxbqXrZY0Nz3X8WlfWYzRgGlSsFiKqmpCPO2GI3ekn+soO04Ofq1VWnxuqGkW2z7TY= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=466EtVuVcGTclvoakXe7nww4oyQKB4Y7b/K7Rq1PqaQOMA35s9tS6i4lHpkj98Cxb7qC6Kq5AJ7YVrd3LqkUHKknJ9828YSaN0pGjI1weK6YGEENspP3jD6nv+BNzY34rlP3YviiB5fMaLetvicjDwMHgdCb4+6KqbAmpuDZopI=; X-YMail-OSG: JzGyTT8VM1nbEIiFUnT3Idse_6ETfk.46tyTWXDYq1RLqdF UnPIhyofXcDm7.almW.hN3kB.Vib83oV2HweShTdgyCDJ9MmIWg5Ibw.Lf0o 56AeOkVKyabQ9WUb9d2xLpXBqPEPfT4GeWL.dS8UGsoK6UMaBe2iBtl4bQ7y 5d_cNQG5.pSDy09Dvs6G9lWMs6S19Qdx0om0F.fzfuUVRm64FlRK5fB4K5CX qfUTfM6US8h2rZzmwotD.s7Dth5U9sUIzxxAsEb46o3qmG2Rkkv08CdQY_n8 a2QpVc7K9N5OGkQvcMn0YPi82Hzsc2cTEF6SBkX3vOEp16QTsL098B2fiEFK v5UfpPJbAKXZxk7uTDazUQyRDMTm2xv6mkgAdrVOLuO7lGkZ1LW9OQBitatg QtLk9fz1EIcNjjAlY2brMWkDsa0.Cn4Yld.4yN7HXPwUtDt6yNmFIr0lNStt 9zjDyaI3AiEEmsnuLgnh0QxNqpJeEUOE5yVprQKh.NY0sht.iO2npZw3cmEn _JubLjX6Rf2FAaEXxGEfCJuWZhXfWEWG02pvoxfmTGj_GwJodpUOJ._UWgtA xn_4XkWShps4c_b_37YgRa0YGJBTt8xNPbnBC3uhYPr82SuitNMMrVPaz2ql GJ58X6kicdt9qE_cCcmj9mjx6IFjp0KN0iTX9vxaLKzmPq4Eoulp6elLPf9X Q7KFWUvb.jlR.KQuYq5rSKr7Bl4Krk89ih8qh..Hgf2AZ3sfNa19MgvV5ikA FzkmWzOlMndxWy6BCkDsKIQki_b4QLg-- Received: from [216.52.185.73] by web111510.mail.gq1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 12:08:48 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.113.315625 References: Message-ID: <1314126528.16049.YahooMailNeo@web111510.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 12:08:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Walter Reply-To: Tom Walter Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: The Case for Solid state Relays (SSR) To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="1986338686-1420254200-1314126528=:16049" --1986338686-1420254200-1314126528=:16049 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jarrett,=0A=0AThere are a whole bunch of little things to look for for when= replacing relays with SSR.=A0 =0A=0A=0AWith a Milling machine I'd still re= commend keeping RELAYS for EMERGENCY OFF.=A0 They are not=0Ahot switching, = should last a long time, but when you want those motors to shut off, you wa= nt=0Ait off NOW!=A0=A0 =0A=0A=0ADC SSR's have been around for some years.= =A0 They have gotten better, but as already mentioned=0Athe AC style only s= witched at zero crossing, and would have confused a good number of EE's.=A0= =0A=0AJust noted the price of the HDD-06V75E is $86.=0A=0AResistance at 40C= is rated at 0.020 Ohms.=A0 With a 50Amp load, that is a=A0 1V drop (very h= igh!).=0AMax is rated at 1.5V at 40C.=A0 We really need to the de-rating cu= rves to evaluate it from -40C to +85C.=0AWith the 50Amp at 1V, that is 50W = of heat disappated.=A0 Think of a 60W light bulb. I'd mount that on a good= =0Aheat sink.=A0=A0 =0A=0A=0AThe mechanical relay is 1Amp to keep the relay= closed.=A0 12V holding voltage, so 12W of heat is consumed.=0A=0ASo the go= od news is the SSR will remain closed until the battery level drops way low= er, but requires 4x the=0Aenergy to keep closed.=A0=A0 No free lunch! :(=0A= =0ATom=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AF= rom: Jarrett Johnson =0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraf= t =0ASent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 11:21 AM= =0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: The Case for Solid state Relays (SSR)=0A=0A=0AT= hanks William..=A0 I learned something new!!=A0 Now I need to find some=0Ao= f these DC ssr's for my cnc mill...=A0 the mechanical relays are a pain in= =0Athe long run due to well.. their mechanical nature.=A0 Gonna have to res= earch=0Athis some more. Is DC SSR's a new development from recent years?=A0= Every EE=0AI've talked to about these in the last 3-4yrs has always spoke = of them as AC=0Arelays.=0A=0AThanks!=0A=0AJarrett=0A=0AOn Tue, 23 Aug 2011 = 10:10:31 -0600,=0AWilliam Wilson wrote:=0A=0ANot all SSR's require AC curre= nt.=A0 A DC SSR is,=0Aeffectively, a giant MOSFET transistor.=A0 There is, = however, a difference=0Abetween a DC and AC SSR, so you need to get the rig= ht kind.=A0 An AC SSR will=0Anot switch DC current correctly, and a DC SSR = will pass half of an AC=0Awave.=0A>=0A>Ed's description of the pros and con= s is pretty accurate.=A0=0ASSRs also tolerate vibration much better, and as= long as you manage their heat,=0Agenerally fail less often.=A0 The heat si= tuation is different, as it depends=0Aon the current flowing, vs. a convent= ional relay which pretty much generates the=0Asame heat whenever it's close= d based on how much current you activate it=0Awith.=0A>=0A>Although we tend= to think of solid state electronics as being more=0Adelicate, SSRs can be = made as big and tough as you need.=A0 They are used in=0Apower substations = and industrial motor controllers, among other things.=A0=0AThe only real re= ason to use a mechanical relay is for cost, or possibly heat=0Areasons.=0A>= =0A>=0A>On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 9:25 AM, Jarrett Johnson wrote:=0A>=0A>Kelly... first things.. I'm=0Ano=A0 'EE'...=A0 just hav= e used these before.=A0 Bottom line is they=0Aare only good for switching A= C current. To turn on or off they need a zero=0Acrossing voltage [when the = AC sinoidal wave goes from + to - or VS=A0] since=0ADC doesn't=A0have that = same waveform=A0[or at least not a zero crossing=0Awave] they don't work wi= th DC. You are pretty much stuck w/ a smaller 'ice cube'=0Atype mechanical = relay for anything DC.=A0=A0=A0=A0 The other issue=0Awith these SSR's [if y= ou should have a used for them in the AC side of things]=0Ais they can and = often do,=A0fail 'closed' such that you cannot turn off what=0Aever it is t= hat your switching.=A0 I've had this happen a couple times [I=0Aused these = on my cnc mill]=A0 and it can be....=A0 a bit=0Ascary.=A0=A0=0A>>=0A>>Fwiw= =0A>>=0A>>Jarrett=0A>>=0A>>ps- I think my summer=0Aflying schedule is start= ing to wind down to the place where I could actually get=0Asome laser scann= ing done... I've been home a grand total of less than 1/2 the=0Aweekends si= nce the start of spring due to flying. I'm not complaining but it=0Adoesn't= make my other projects run too smoothly!=A0 Currently have my mill=0Aall t= orn appart while I upgrade some electronic's and servo drives/motors on=0Ai= t.=A0 If I was ever to look like the mad scientist, now would be the=0Atime= .=A0 Complete w/ hair sticking out every which way, wires sparking and=0Ath= e odd release of the 'magic' smoke.. :D=A0 [ok.. sparking and smoke hasn't= =0Ahappened yet but... ya just never know when it might!!] =0A>>=0A>>=0A>>= =0A>>=0A>>On Tue, 23 Aug 2011 08:12:00 -0700 (PDT), Kelly=0ATroyer wrote:= =0A>>=0A>>=0A>>>=0A>>>Ed & Group,=0A>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 I brought=A0up th= e question of=0Apossible use of Solid State Relays (SSR)=A0to replace the = =0A>>>electro-mechanical contactors most of us use in=0Aour flying electric= al systems but I need=A0=0A>>>to depend on the smarter=A0"EE" (Electronic E= ngineer) types=0Aof our group to tell me if this=0A>>>would be a good idea.= ..........To the electrically challenged (Me) they=0Alook good.......Light= =0A>>>weight, small, low operating voltage (down to 3 volts), low current d= raw,=0Alow voltage drop,=0A>>>high surge amp survival, etc..............The= y do require a heat sink to=0Autilize their maximum=0A>>>amp capibility....= ........They do cost considerably more than=0Athe contactors but do not wea= r=0A>>>or degrade and if used within their limits will probably last longer= than=0Ame...........=0A>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 I have included a link to the= company=0Athat made the SSR that I have purchased on=0A>>>blind faith that= it would serve as my master relay........It is=0Aa=A0"Power-IO"=A0model HD= D-06V75=0A>>>which has been upgraded since my purchase by the HDD-06V75E=0A= which will operate at=0A>>>a lower voltage,lower drop and lower current dra= w............Both versions=0Awill stay=A0operated =0A>>>at down to 1 volt..= ........Looking forward for a critique of this idea pro=0Aor con...........= ....<:)=0A>>>=A0=0A>>>=A0=0A>>>http://www.power-io.com/products/hdd.htm=0A>= >>=A0=0A>>>http://www.power-io.com/library/databulletin/hdd-family.pdf=0A>>= >=A0=0A>>>http://www.power-io.com/library/databulletin/hdd-e-family.pdf=0A>= >>=A0=A0=0A>>>Kelly Troyer=0A>>>"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A>>>"13B ROT= ARY"_=0AEngine=0A>>>"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A>>>"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil=0AManif= old=0A>>>"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>From: Ed Anderson =0A>>>To: Rotary=0Amotors in aircraft =0A>>>Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 8:37 PM=0A>>>Subject: [F= lyRotary] Re: One Battery=0A- Two Battery was [FlyRotary] Re: Batteries=0A>= >>=0A>>>=0A>>>Yes, Kelly, back a few years ago, I did look into them. The m= odels=0AI looked at had some strange characteristics that I didn't fully un= derstand (and=0Adidn't take the time to), so I passed.=A0 Besides in my cas= e 3 volts would=0Ataken me a bit closer to the airport before the relay let= loose, but would have=0Adone nothing to provide a solution for my problem = - head up and locked=0A{:>).=0A>>>=A0=0A>>>I'm still waiting for the 16X be= fore I start anything major new on=0Amy aircraft=A0 - hope won't have to wa= it too much longer.=0A>>>=A0=0A>>>Ed=0A>>>=A0=0A>>>=A0=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>Fro= m: Kelly=0ATroyer =0A>>>Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 8:48 PM=0A>>>To: Rota= ry motors in=0Aaircraft =0A>>>Subject: [FlyRotary] One Battery - Two Batter= y was [FlyRotary] Re:=0ABatteries=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>Ed,=0A>>>=A0 Have you ev= er considered "Solid State Relays" for=A0 contactors..........The DC versio= ns will operate =0A>>>at down to 3 volts and draw a lot less=A0amperage tha= n the electro mechanical=0Aversions...........=A0=0A>>>=A0=0A>>>Kelly Troye= r=0A>>>"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A>>>"13B ROTARY"_=0AEngine=0A>>>"RWS"= _RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A>>>"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil=0AManifold=0A>>>"TURBONETICS"_TO= 4E50 Turbo=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>From: Ed Anderson = =0A>>>To: Rotary=0Amotors in aircraft =0A>>>Se= nt: Monday, August 22, 2011 4:12 PM=0A>>>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One Batte= ry=0A- Two Battery was [FlyRotary] Re: Batteries=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>Yes, I ha= ve also found my GPS can get confused -=0Aespecially in the inner city (whe= re you need it the most).=A0 So can my brain=0Awhen tired and/or under=A0 p= ressure - the old brain can do some not so funny=0Athings.=0A>>>=A0=0A>>>I = left out one important fact about why the switch in the wrong=0Aposition ca= used the engine out landing.=A0 =0A>>>=A0=0A>>>When I had designed that swi= tch in to disengage the battery from=0Athe alternator (in case of an over v= oltage condition), the switch not only=0Aremoved the battery from the alter= nator line - but also all my critical systems=0A(fuel, ignition) which were= "smartly" tied to my battery bus.=A0 So even=0Athough the alternator was p= utting out plenty of power - even if the battery had=0Abeen stone, cold dea= d, it could have powered all of=A0those power hungry=0Adevices.=A0 But havi= ng all of that on the battery bus and the battery bus=0Adisconnected from a= lternator - that pulled that battery down even=0Aquicker.=A0=0A>>>=A0=0A>>>= So the fact that it last 45 minutes including cranking drain for=0Aengine s= tart says a lot about the Odyssey PC 680.=0A>>>=A0=0A>>>=A0=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>= >>From: Tom=0AWalter =0A>>>Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 2:44 PM=0A>>>To: R= otary motors in=0Aaircraft =0A>>>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One Battery - Two= Battery was [FlyRotary]=0ARe: Batteries=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>Ed,=0A>>>=0A>>>= =0A>>>Thanks.=A0 I remembered you discussing it, but now it makes=0Asense w= hy you didn't see the low voltage warning from the=0Abattery.=0A>>>=0A>>>= =0A>>>I know that 'fixation' issue, all to well.=A0=A0 On business=0AI'm al= ways running between meetings in new cities, and got to the point where I= =0Areally loved (& blindly trusted) my Garmin GPS.=A0 Well in Phoenix there= was an=0A"W.Shangri-LaRd"=0Avs "E.=A0 Shangri-La Rd". Van full of hungry p= eople=0Awanting dinner, and I kept following the GPS... despite a passenger= =0Ain the back telling me I was taking the wrong route.=A0 I just figured t= he GPS was smarter as it rcd traffic information, and=0Awould get us there = faster!=A0 Had I thought to look at a map, or listened the=0Amy passenger, = but with a load of people, 5pm traffic, and overload after a day=0Ain the s= un.... my brain wasn't working.=A0 Live and learn!=A0=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>Tom= =0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>From: Ed Anderson =0A>>>To: Ro= tary=0Amotors in aircraft =0A>>>Sent: Monday, = August 22, 2011 12:27 PM=0A>>>Subject: [FlyRotary] One Battery -=0ATwo Batt= ery was [FlyRotary] Re: Batteries=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>Actually, Tom, =A0in tha= t particular incident - a second battery=0Awould have only=A0enabled me to = fly too far away from the only safe airport=0Ato make a return and dead sti= ck into.=A0 IF I had realized the root=0Acause (a switch accidently put in = the wrong position) then one=0Abattery would have worked just as well as tw= o {:>).=A0 =0A>>>=A0=0A>>>Having said that, I certainly would not try to ge= t anyone to change=0Atheir mind about using two batteries.=A0.=A0Some folks= would not feel=0Acomfortable even with two batteries - but, would add a se= cond alternator,=0Aetc.=A0 So,=A0you have to think through your scenarios, = the risk involved=0Aand your personal risk tolerance.=A0 Yes, Bob now has s= everal good electrical=0Adesigns - for just about any kind of power system = you could come up with.=A0=0ABack in 1992, I had never heard of Aeroelectri= c or=0ABob.=0A>>>=A0=0A>>>=A0=0A>>>=A0=0A>>>But, since my previous engine o= ut almost 5 years previous had been=0Afuel related and the engine was sputt= ering in a similar manner - my diagnostic=0Aside of the brain got locked in= to=A0searching =A0for a fuel problem=0A(again) - but even switching tanks = did no good - because, this time the "fuel=0Aproblem" was a decreasing elec= trical power.=A0 This incident clearly pointed=0Aout the need for an emerge= ncy check list that involved checking both fuel AND=0Aelectrical systems.= =A0 Coming up with one in your head with the engine=0Asputtering is not rec= ommended {:>)=0A>>>=A0=0A>>>Contributing factors were two early design deci= sions that on=0Ahindsight revealed shortcomings.=A0=A0=0A>>>=A0=0A>>>One wa= s an electrical system design that permitted my voltmeter to=0Akeep showing= me the 13.8 volts being generated by the alternator while the=0Abattery vo= ltage was steadly decreasing.=A0 Yes, I had a=0Alow-voltage light right in = front of my eyes - but, it was wired into the=0Aalternator powered circuit = - so never showed low voltage because the alternator=0Avoltage was fine - u= p to the point the relay released.=0A>>>=A0=0A>>>=A0=A0 Now,=A0=A0had=A0 it= occurred to me I might=0Ahave an electrical problem - and switched the vol= t meter to the battery (instead=0Aof alternator) AND had thought to observe= it, I would have seen the battery=0Avoltage decreasing and that MIGHT have= got me looking for an electrical problem=0Arather than a fuel problem.=A0 = But, when you get your head locked into one=0Afocus - and you truly have me= ntal blinders on, NOT GOOD!=0A>>>=A0=0A>>>The second design deficiency was = that =A0the relay holding the=0Aalternator On-Line was provided current sol= ely =A0by the battery - so guess=0Awhat happened when the battery juice got= too low to hold the alternator=0Aon-line?=A0 Right "CLACK!!!!!"=A0 followe= d immediately by all lights,=0Aradios, LEDS, panel going dark.=A0 It gets e= ven lonelier when=0Athe lights go out.=A0 Had I two batteries - all of this= would have happened=0Afurther from my emergency airport in Salem, Al.=0A>>= >=A0=0A>>>No, I have not added the second battery back in after the inciden= t=0A=A0- because in my particular case, the incident had nothing to do with= one=0Abattery vs two battery=A0 - it was a case of a mis-positioned=0Aswit= ch which the pilot never recognized was the cause - until later on the=0Agr= ound, cleaning off the seat cushion.=A0 The corrective action was to put a= =0Aswitch guard over that particular switch so it could NOT be accidently t= oggled incorrectly=A0AND rewire my relay so that a=0Adead battery would no = longer prevent my system from using the power of a=0Aperfectly good alterna= tor.=0A>>>=A0=0A>>>But, this is just my perspective - provided for anyone t= o glean=0Awhat they wish from it - if that is two batteries, two alternator= s or what have=0Ayou, then as always in this hobby, that is up to individua= l=0Achoice.=A0=0A>>>=A0=0A>>>=A0Just don't make the same dumb mistakes I ma= de, we know how=0Athose turned out=A0- advance the state of the art and mak= e NEW mistakes=0A{:>)=0A>>>=A0=0A>>>Oh, yes, the switch I accidently activa= ted (I think I=0Aprobably hit it with my foot getting out of the aircraft a= t the previous=0Arefueling stop) was one that enabled me to detach my batte= ry from the=0Aalternator.=A0 The thought at design time was that if my alte= rnator ran-away=0Awith high voltage, I could isolate the battery from the a= lternator thereby=0Apreventing the battery from overheating/boiling and get= to an emergency landing=0Aon battery power alone.=A0 Seemed like a good id= ea at the time.=0A>>>=A0=0A>>>Ed=0A>>>=A0=0A>>>Edward L. Anderson=0A>>>Ande= rson Electronic Enterprises LLC=0A>>>305 Reefton Road=0A>>>Weddington, NC= =0A28104=0A>>>http://www.andersonee.com=0A>>>http://www.eicommander.com=0A>= >>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>From: Tom Walter =0A>>>Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 12= :35 PM=0A>>>To: Rotary motors in=0Aaircraft =0A>>>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Batteries=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>Joe,=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>Which Bob Knuckles system?= =A0 Z19?=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>I realize Ed is happy with one battery, but I lik= e two=0Abatteries.=A0 TheTHUNK of relays all popping open and the=0Arealiza= tion of "I turned off the alternator,and voltage dropped=0Away too low.... = followed with LAND NOW!" would have convinced Ed tohave put the second batt= ery back in! It sure got my attention on why two=0Abatteries is a good thin= g!(Great Story, but I'll let Ed tell=0Ait!)=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>So two b= atteries, and a BIG RED LIGHT with "low voltage" will go on=0Amy panel.=0A>= >>=0A>>>I did the spread sheet with 17AH batteries and=0Aflying time. Add i= n Night, and noplace to easily land.... two batties seem like a good trade = off.=A0 My biggest=0Ashockwas the FORD style contactor needed 1Amp draw to= =0Aremain closed.=A0 Shutting down nonessential, but leaving contactors, PD= F, ECU and coils....=A0=A0 System=0Adraw is around 15 Amps. 17AHimplies you= 'd have an hour, but at=0A15Amp draw... more like 30-40 minutes, hence two = batteriesas 1=0Ahour flying time makes finding a landing strip a little eas= ier.=A0 =0A>>>=0A>>>Tom=0A>>> =0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>From: Ed Anderson =0A>>>To: Rotary=0Amotors in aircraft =0A>>>Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 11:20 AM=0A>>>Subject: [FlyRo= tary] Re:=0ABatteries=0A>>>=0A>>>Joe, I started out using two Concord 25AH = RGB each weighing 22 lbs for a total of over 44 lbs of battery=0A(some joke= d I could get home by using the start to crank the prop {:>))=0A!=A0 I then= transition to two Odyssey PC-680 17AH batteries each weighing 14=0Albs for= a total of 28 lbs.=A0 Then after 6 years of flying with two batteries=0Aan= d never using the second one - except to help crank on a cold morning, I=0A= removed one of them.=A0 Have now been flying for over 4-5 years with one=0A= Odyssey 14lbs.=A0 I swap it out every two=0Ayears.=0A>>>=0A>>>Ed=0A>>>=0A>>= >--------------------------------------------------=0A>>>From:=0A=0A>>>Sent:=0AMonday, August 22, 2011 11:59 AM=0A>>>To: "Ro= tary motors in aircraft" =0A>>>Subject:=0A[Fly= Rotary] Batteries=0A>>>=0A>>>> What size an type of batteries are required= =0Afor the rotary?=A0 I am leaning toward using 2 batteries and use Bob Nuc= kols system.=A0 Thanks for any help.=0A>>>> =0A>>>> Joe Berki=0A>>>> Limo E= Z=0A>>>> =0A>>>> --=0A>>>>=0AHomepage:=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/=0A>>>>= =0AArchive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List= .html =0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>--=0A>>>Homepage:=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/=0A>>= >Archive=0Aand UnSub:=A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/L= ist.html=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A= >>=0A>>www.innovention-tech.com=0A>>=0A>>=0A>=0A=0A=0A=0Awww.innovention-te= ch.com --1986338686-1420254200-1314126528=:16049 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jarrett,

There are a wh= ole bunch of little things to look for for when replacing relays with SSR.&= nbsp;

With a Millin= g machine I'd still recommend keeping RELAYS for EMERGENCY OFF.  They = are not
hot switching, should last a long time, but = when you want those motors to shut off, you want
it = off NOW!  

DC SSR's have been around for some years.  They have gotten better, = but as already mentioned
the AC style only switched = at zero crossing, and would have confused a good number of EE's. 

Just noted the price of the=20 HDD-06V75E is $86.

Resistance at 40C= is rated at 0.020 Ohms.  With a 50Amp load, that is a  1V drop (= very high!).
Max is rated at 1.5V at 40C.  We really need to= the de-rating curves to evaluate it from -40C to +85C.
With the = 50Amp at 1V, that is 50W of heat disappated.  Think of a 60W light bul= b. I'd mount that on a good
heat sink.  

The mechanical relay is 1Amp to keep the relay closed. = ; 12V holding voltage, so 12W of heat is consumed.

So the good news is the SSR will remain closed until the battery level dro= ps way lower, but requires 4x the
energy to keep closed. &nb= sp; No free lunch! :(

Tom








=
From: Jarrett Johnso= n <hjjohnson@sasktel.net>
To= : Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net><= br>Sent: Tuesday, August 2= 3, 2011 11:21 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The Case for Solid state Relays (SSR)

Thanks William..  I learned something new!!  = Now I need to find some=0Aof these DC ssr's for my cnc mill...  the mechanical rela= ys are a pain in=0Athe long run due to well.. their mechanical nature. = ; Gonna have to research=0Athis some more. Is DC SSR's a new development fr= om recent years?  Every EE=0AI've talked to about these in the last 3-= 4yrs has always spoke of them as AC=0Arelays.

Thanks!

Jarrett=

On Tue, 23 Aug 2011 10:10:31 -0600,=0AWilliam Wilson wrote:
=0A<= blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:rgb(0,0,0) 2px solid;PADDING-LEFT:5px;PADDI= NG-RIGHT:0px;MARGIN-LEFT:5px;MARGIN-RIGHT:0px;" dir=3D"ltr">=0A
Not all SSR's require AC current.  A DC SSR is= ,=0Aeffectively, a giant MOSFET transistor.  There is, however, a diff= erence=0Abetween a DC and AC SSR, so you need to get the right kind.  = An AC SSR will=0Anot switch DC current correctly, and a DC SSR will pass ha= lf of an AC=0Awave.

Ed's description of the pros and cons is pretty = accurate. =0ASSRs also tolerate vibration much better, and as long as = you manage their heat,=0Agenerally fail less often.  The heat situatio= n is different, as it depends=0Aon the current flowing, vs. a conventional = relay which pretty much generates the=0Asame heat whenever it's closed base= d on how much current you activate it=0Awith.

Although we tend to th= ink of solid state electronics as being more=0Adelicate, SSRs can be made a= s big and tough as you need.  They are used in=0Apower substations and= industrial motor controllers, among other things. =0AThe only real re= ason to use a mechanical relay is for cost, or possibly heat=0Areasons.
=
=0A
On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 9:25 A= M, Jarrett Johnson <hjjohnson@sasktel.net&= gt;=0Awrote:
=0A
Kelly... first things.. I'm=0Ano  'EE'...  just have used these = before.  Bottom line is they=0Aare only good for switching AC current.= To turn on or off they need a zero=0Acrossing voltage [when the AC sinoida= l wave goes from + to - or VS ] since=0ADC doesn't have that same= waveform [or at least not a zero crossing=0Awave] they don't work wit= h DC. You are pretty much stuck w/ a smaller 'ice cube'=0Atype mechanical r= elay for anything DC.     The other issue=0Awith these = SSR's [if you should have a used for them in the AC side of things]=0Ais th= ey can and often do, fail 'closed' such that you cannot turn off what= =0Aever it is that your switching.  I've had this happen a couple time= s [I=0Aused these on my cnc mill]  and it can be....  a bit=0Asca= ry.  

Fwiw

Jarrett

ps- I think my summer=0Af= lying schedule is starting to wind down to the place where I could actually= get=0Asome laser scanning done... I've been home a grand total of less tha= n 1/2 the=0Aweekends since the start of spring due to flying. I'm not compl= aining but it=0Adoesn't make my other projects run too smoothly!  Curr= ently have my mill=0Aall torn appart while I upgrade some electronic's and = servo drives/motors on=0Ait.  If I was ever to look like the mad scien= tist, now would be the=0Atime.  Complete w/ hair sticking out every wh= ich way, wires sparking and=0Athe odd release of the 'magic' smoke.. :D&nbs= p; [ok.. sparking and smoke hasn't=0Ahappened yet but... ya just never know= when it might!!]=0A
=0A
=0A

=


On Tue, 23 Aug 2011 08:12:00 -0700 (PDT), Kelly=0ATroyer wrote:
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A

=0A
=0A
Ed & Group,
=0A
   = ;    I brought up the question of=0Apossible use of Sol= id State Relays (SSR) to replace the
=0A
= electro-mechanical contactors most of us use in=0Aour f= lying electrical systems but I need 
=0A
to depend on the sma= rter "EE" (Electronic Engineer) types=0Aof our group to t= ell me if this
=0A
would be a good idea...........To the electrica= lly challenged (Me) they=0Alook good.......Light
=0A
weight, small= , low operating voltage (down to 3 volts), low current draw,=0Alow voltage = drop,
=0A
high surge amp survival, etc..............They do requir= e a heat sink to=0Autilize their maximum
=0A
amp = capibility............They do cost considerably more than=0Athe contactors but do not wear
=0A
or degrade and if used wit= hin their limits will probably last longer than=0Ame...........
=0A       I have included a link to the compan= y=0Athat made the SSR that I have purchased on
=0A
bl= ind faith that it would serve as my master relay........It is=0Aa "Pow= er-IO" model HDD-06V75
=0A
which has been upgrad= ed since my purchase by the HDD-06V75E=0Awhich will operate at=
=0A
a lower voltage,lower drop and lower current draw............= Both versions=0Awill stay operated
=0A
at down to 1 volt....= ......Looking forward for a critique of this idea pro=0Aor con.............= ..<:)
=0A
 
=0A
 
=0A=0A
 
=0Ahttp://www.power-io.com/library/databull= etin/hdd-family.pdf
=0A
 
=0A=0A
  
=0A
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)
=0A
"13B ROTARY"_=0A= Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil=0AManifold
=0A
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A

=0A
=0A
=0A
From: Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.= rr.com>
To: Rotar= y=0Amotors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>= ;
Sent:=0AMonday, August= 22, 2011 8:37 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One Battery=0A- Two Battery was [FlyRotary] Re: Batterie= s

=0A
=0A
Yes, Kel= ly, back a few years ago, I did look into them. The models=0AI looked at ha= d some strange characteristics that I didn't fully understand (and=0Adidn't= take the time to), so I passed.  Besides in my case 3 volts would=0At= aken me a bit closer to the airport before the relay let loose, but would h= ave=0Adone nothing to provide a solution for my problem - head up and locke= d=0A{:>).
=0A
=  
=0A
I'm still waiting fo= r the 16X before I start anything major new on=0Amy aircraft  - hope w= on't have to wait too much longer.
=0A
 
=0A
Ed
=0A
 =0A
 
=0A
=0A

=0A
=0A
From: Kelly=0ATroyer <= /div>=0A
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 8:48 PM
=0A=0A
Subject: [FlyRotary] One Battery - Two= Battery was [FlyRotary] Re:=0ABatteries
=0A

=0A
=0A
Ed,
=0A
  Have you ever considered "Solid State Relays" for =0Ac= ontactors..........The DC versions will operate
=0Aat down to 3 volts and draw a lot less amperage than the=0Aelectro mechanical=0Aversions........... =0A
=0A
 
=0A
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)
=0A
"13B ROTARY"_=0A= Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil=0AManifold
=0A
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A

=0A
=0A
=0A
From: Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.= rr.com>
To: Rotar= y=0Amotors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>= ;
Sent:=0AMonday, August= 22, 2011 4:12 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One Battery=0A- Two Battery was [FlyRotary] Re: Batterie= s

=0A
=0A
Yes, I h= ave also found my GPS can get confused -=0Aespecially in the i= nner city (where you need it the most).  So can my brain=0Awhen tired = and/or under  pressure - the old brain can do some not so funny=0Athin= gs.
=0A
 =0A
I left out one important fact= about why the switch in the wrong=0Aposition caused the engine out landing= . 
=0A
&nbs= p;
=0A
When I had designed that= switch in to disengage the battery from=0Athe alternator (in case of an ov= er voltage condition), the switch not only=0Aremoved the battery from the a= lternator line - but also all my critical systems=0A(fuel, ignition) which = were "smartly" tied to my battery bus.  So even=0Athough the alternato= r was putting out plenty of power - even if the battery had=0Abeen stone, c= old dead, it could have powered all of those power hungry=0Adevices.&n= bsp; But having all of that on the battery bus and the battery bus=0Adiscon= nected from alternator - that pulled that battery down even=0Aquicker. = ;
=0A
 =0A
So the fact that it last 45 min= utes including cranking drain for=0Aengine start says a lot about the Odyss= ey PC 680.
=0A
&n= bsp;
=0A
 
=0A=
=0A

=0A
=0A=0A
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 2:44 = PM
=0A=0A
Subject: [FlyRotar= y] Re: One Battery - Two Battery was [FlyRotary]=0ARe: Batteries
=0A

=0A
=0A
Ed,=0A

=0A
Thanks.  I rememb= ered you discussing it, but now it makes=0Asense why you didn't see the low= voltage warning from the=0Abattery.
=0A

=0A
I know that 'fixation' issue, all to well.   On busine= ss=0AI'm always running between meetings in new cities, and got to the poin= t where I=0Areally loved (& blindly trusted) my Garmin=0A<= span>GPS.  Well in Phoenix there was an=0A"W.Shangri-La <= /span>Rd"=0Avs "E.  Shangri-La Rd". V= an full of hungry people=0Awanting dinner, and I kept following the G= PS... despite a passenger=0Ain the back telling me I was taking the = wrong route.  I just figured the=0AGPS was smarter as it = rcd traffic information, and=0Awould get us there faster! = ; Had I thought to look at a map, or listened the=0Amy passenger, but with = a load of people, 5pm traffic, and overload after a day=0Ain the sun.... my= brain wasn't working.  Live and learn! 
=0A

=
=0A
Tom

=0A
=0A
=0A
From:= Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
To: Rotary=0Amotors in aircraft <= flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent:=0AMonday, August 22, 2011 12:27 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] One Battery= -=0ATwo Battery was [FlyRotary] Re: Batteries

=0A
=0AActually, Tom,  in that particula= r incident - a second battery=0Awould have only enabled me to fly too = far away from the only safe airport=0Ato make a return and dead stick into.=   IF I had realized the root=0Acause (a switch accidently= put in the wrong position) then one=0Abattery would have worked jus= t as well as two {:>). 
=0A
 
=0A
= Having said that, I certainly would not try to get anyone to change=0Atheir= mind about using two batteries. . Some folks would not feel=0Aco= mfortable even with two batteries - but, would add a second alternator,=0Ae= tc.  So, you have to think through your scenarios, the risk invol= ved=0Aand your personal risk tolerance.  Yes, Bob now has several good= electrical=0Adesigns - for just about any kind of power system you could c= ome up with. =0ABack in 1992, I had never heard of Aeroelectric<= /span> or=0ABob.
=0A
 
=0A
 =0A
 
=0A
But, since my previous engine out almost 5= years previous had been=0Afuel related and the engine was sputtering in a = similar manner - my diagnostic=0Aside of the brain got locked in to se= arching  for a fuel problem=0A(again) - but even switching tanks did n= o good - because, this time the "fuel=0Aproblem" was a decreasing electrica= l power.  This incident clearly pointed=0Aout the need for an emergenc= y check list that involved checking both fuel AND=0Aelectrical systems.&nbs= p; Coming up with one in your head with the engine=0Asputtering is not reco= mmended {:>)
=0A
 
=0A
Contributing fact= ors were two early design decisions that on=0Ahindsight revealed shortcomin= gs.  
=0A
 
=0A
One was an electr= ical system design that permitted my voltmeter to=0Akeep showing me the 13.= 8 volts being generated by the alternator while the=0Abattery voltage was <= span>steadly decreasing.  Yes, I had a=0Alow-voltage light righ= t in front of my eyes - but, it was wired into the=0Aalternator powered cir= cuit - so never showed low voltage because the alternator=0Avoltage was fin= e - up to the point the relay released.
=0A
 
=0A
   Now,  had  it occurred to me I might=0Ah= ave an electrical problem - and switched the volt meter to the battery (ins= tead=0Aof alternator) AND had thought to observe it, I would have seen the = battery=0Avoltage decreasing and that MIGHT have got me looking for an elec= trical problem=0Arather than a fuel problem.  But, when you get your h= ead locked into one=0Afocus - and you truly have mental blinders on, NOT GO= OD!
=0A
 =0A
The second design deficiency = was that  the relay holding the=0Aalternator On-Line was provided curr= ent solely  by the battery - so guess=0Awhat happened when the battery= juice got too low to hold the alternator=0Aon-line?  Right "CLACK!!!!= !"  followed immediately by all lights,=0Aradios, LEDS, p= anel going dark.  It gets even lonelier when=0Athe lights go out. = ; Had I two batteries - all of this would have happened=0Afurther from my e= mergency airport in Salem, Al.
=0A
 
=0A
No= , I have not added the second battery back in after the incident=0A - = because in my particular case, the incident had nothing to do with one=0Aba= ttery vs two battery  - it was a case of a mis-positioned= =0Aswitch which the pilot never recognized was the cause - until later on t= he=0Aground, cleaning off the seat cushion.  The corrective action was= to put a=0Aswitch guard over that particular switch so it could NOT be=0A<= span>accidently toggled incorrectly AND rewire my relay so that= a=0Adead battery would no longer prevent my system from using the power of= a=0Aperfectly good alternator.
=0A
 
=0A
B= ut, this is just my perspective - provided for anyone to glean=0Awhat they = wish from it - if that is two batteries, two alternators or what have=0Ayou= , then as always in this hobby, that is up to individual=0Achoice. 
=0A
 
=0A=
 Just don't make the same d= umb mistakes I made, we know how=0Athose turned out - advance the stat= e of the art and make NEW mistakes=0A{:>)
=0A
 
=0A
Oh, yes, the switch I accidently activ= ated (I think I=0Aprobably hit it with my foot getting out of the aircraft = at the previous=0Arefueling stop) was one that enabled me to detach my batt= ery from the=0Aalternator.  The thought at design time was that if my = alternator ran-away=0Awith high voltage, I could isolate the battery from t= he alternator thereby=0Apreventing the battery from overheating/boiling and= get to an emergency landing=0Aon battery power alone.  Seemed like a = good idea at the time.
=0A
 
=0A
Ed<= /div>=0A
 
=0A
= Edward L. Anderson
Anderson Electroni= c Enterprises=0ALLC
305 Reefton Road
= Weddington, NC=0A28104
http://www.andersonee.com
http://www= .eicommander.com
=0A
= =0A

=0A
=0A
From: Tom Walter
=0A
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 12:35 PM
=0A=0A
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Batteries
=0A

=0A
=0A
Joe,
=0A

=0A
Which Bob Knuckles system?  Z19?
=0A

=0A
I realize Ed is happy with one battery, but I like tw= o=0Abatteries.  The THUNK of relays all popping open and = the=0Arealization of "I turned off the alternator, and voltage= dropped=0Away too low.... followed with LAND NOW!" would have convinced Ed= to=0Ahave put the second battery back in! It sure got my atte= ntion on why two=0Abatteries is a good thing!(Great Story, but= I'll let Ed tell=0Ait!)
=0A

=0A=
So two batteries, and a BIG RED LIGHT with "low voltage" will go= on=0Amy panel.
=0A

I did the = spread sheet with 17AH batteries and=0Aflying time. Add in Night, and no place to easily land.... two=0Abatties seem like a = good trade off.  My biggest=0Ashock was the FORD style contactor needed 1Amp draw to=0Aremain closed.  Shutting do= wn non essential, but leaving=0Acontactors, PDF, ECU and coils....   System=0Adraw is around 15 Amps.= 17AH implies you'd have an hour, but at=0A15Amp draw... more = like 30-40 minutes, hence two batteries as 1=0Ahour flying tim= e makes finding a landing strip a little easier. =0A

Tom
=0A

=0A
=0A
=0A
= From: Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
To: Rotary=0Amotors in aircraft <flyrotar= y@lancaironline.net>
Sent:=0AMonday, August 22, 2011 11:20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re:=0ABatteries

Joe= , I started out using two Concord 25AH=0ARGB each weighing 22 = lbs for a total of over 44 lbs of battery=0A(some joked I could get home by= using the start to crank the prop {:>))=0A!  I then transition to = two Odyssey PC-680 17AH batteries each weighing 14=0Albs for a total of 28 = lbs.  Then after 6 years of flying with two batteries=0Aand never usin= g the second one - except to help crank on a cold morning, I=0Aremoved one = of them.  Have now been flying for over 4-5 years with one=0AOdyssey 1= 4lbs.  I swap it out every two=0Ayears.

Ed

-------------= -------------------------------------
From:=0A<jskmberki@w= indstream.net>
Sent:=0AMonday, August 22, 2011 11:59 AM
To: "R= otary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net= >
Subject:=0A[FlyRotary] Batteries

> What size an type of b= atteries are required=0Afor the rotary?  I am leaning toward using 2 b= atteries and use Bob=0ANuckols system.  Thanks for any he= lp.
>
> Joe=0ABerki
> Limo EZ<= br>>
> --
>=0AHomepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/>=0AArchive and UnSub: ht= tp://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html=0A


= --
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive=0Aand Un= Sub:  http://mail.lancaironline= .net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html









=0A



=0A

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