X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nm5-vm0.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.44.112] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.1) with SMTP id 5101197 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 12:34:59 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.44.112; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: from [98.139.44.104] by nm5.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Aug 2011 16:34:23 -0000 Received: from [98.139.44.87] by tm9.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Aug 2011 16:34:23 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1024.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Aug 2011 16:34:23 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 963874.51185.bm@omp1024.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 6166 invoked by uid 60001); 23 Aug 2011 16:34:23 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1314117263; bh=0Oi5yEhMfWhnsh9TsMbkpjd/yMq3iCbxGFbjsnWiE0k=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=AG0b2vp/AW02bCZftem5il1hr3h0UsuEyptH26VRnsTDtr/WitGs/GVc52gzK+/1J/BmtissjoYkzZ5Af8+HzV4cvPGKWGCCLlX5NfFztpmpbjWLrq6EHEYaCRkIhirInJXsjhlCz+ZdRU4skUOOWTbLO7/2KvkjdAev5b/9jhQ= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=att.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=trVJKW0sMju9N1DiTPE9lIcTsoggrMNICZN4QGW8CaeHKIrgZ0tN0f5FMIMyKb8W4ezXeNWGAMHUyJYoSNuYjpkN2XDZZ9zzjKggiCvaTn0de0myAoTtkjZMVK+bICDOy2pjAx833n4QVtqxcGnHmKxe1xWjchqG90Mqhoortfo=; X-YMail-OSG: y3UUCscVM1mlkhi_OaRV_u7dBtmGvOc1R4ovIZx1ouJ1vNY iSpNWwshnb5UGXydISU6qKBFbsnV3uJtMlByy5vQRwP_3.4af3EDHh9TzHwU o5CjI0PiesJ99Vi97lZuUCnZ.UTJyDEbXciQJ0hjqKROH0mfbXXQxoIZdjna YSOELGuMKfoX1ufe0c9gTE7kfQCiE6qRh6EW84DX6Tkg2wGqG5IrBkEbO1Bs x7YbmY49wRlFnKBzq6bJWIGEfMScf.5aB9X1mpWSxK910z0c1ECSBUvJbofE o11iIsmabPmQuwwagwDKXQ5Msko844hVk3MCHTunz3bEEyHJ_mxNPpx1oQnG kCwECQHMhj1OYhVU_.jxrE5dmOjx63S4j3ei0mcEvOM_R2upUt4gVZLZoBHs 7pi8FCJtk8ulWhymQNydW9Dh_v3XOnbUgPQSBE6PXXXkRCOTJ5wZ.NfiAu7H eTeFoEJ55WWeTWbaEU4.Q3tjgde04p3FMvsS6GjS6E5zi8OsF14GYMICKd4l Ps8REF22aHjtT7dAm6tRSXr2dqo668xOiS1J2gamgC5J2gm08Zz69.BPpUIQ z.AAQnVct4LpJGc9ruybH0N6on3pXQxxe3MDRAbP3TdPAmJNlGFD8j3ovPJu Iaa7ty7bqawPlmZfhLq5viViTBGnV4QONW6aCkpkbhjp2rlF_XWXhdyT4xrn lvg039VRKVr4nMu.I1ZVCG.zPRMd393cXWQ-- Received: from [208.114.32.15] by web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 09:34:23 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.113.313619 References: Message-ID: <1314117263.86721.YahooMailNeo@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 09:34:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Kelly Troyer Reply-To: Kelly Troyer Subject: Re: The Case for Solid state Relays (SSR) To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1127063678-1314117263=:86721" --0-1127063678-1314117263=:86721 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jarret,=0A=A0=A0=A0=A0 The "Power-IO" SSR's in my links are all for DC swit= ching...........Many different amp=0Acapabilities to choose from...........= ..=0A=0AKelly Troyer=0A"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engine= =0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A"TURBONETICS"_TO= 4E50 Turbo=0A=0AFrom: Jarrett Johnson =0ATo: Rotary = motors in aircraft =0ASent: Tuesday, August 23= , 2011 11:21 AM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: The Case for Solid state Relays = (SSR)=0A=0A=0AThanks William..=A0 I learned something new!!=A0 Now I need t= o find some of these DC ssr's for my cnc mill...=A0 the mechanical relays a= re a pain in the long run due to well.. their mechanical nature.=A0 Gonna h= ave to research this some more. Is DC SSR's a new development from recent y= ears?=A0 Every EE I've talked to about these in the last 3-4yrs has always = spoke of them as AC relays.=0A=0AThanks!=0A=0AJarrett=0A=0AOn Tue, 23 Aug 2= 011 10:10:31 -0600, William Wilson wrote:=0A=0ANot all SSR's require AC cur= rent.=A0 A DC SSR is, effectively, a giant MOSFET transistor.=A0 There is, = however, a difference between a DC and AC SSR, so you need to get the right= kind.=A0 An AC SSR will not switch DC current correctly, and a DC SSR will= pass half of an AC wave.=0A>=0A>Ed's description of the pros and cons is p= retty accurate.=A0 SSRs also tolerate vibration much better, and as long as= you manage their heat, generally fail less often.=A0 The heat situation is= different, as it depends on the current flowing, vs. a conventional relay = which pretty much generates the same heat whenever it's closed based on how= much current you activate it with.=0A>=0A>Although we tend to think of sol= id state electronics as being more delicate, SSRs can be made as big and to= ugh as you need.=A0 They are used in power substations and industrial motor= controllers, among other things.=A0 The only real reason to use a mechanic= al relay is for cost, or possibly heat reasons.=0A>=0A>=0A>On Tue, Aug 23, = 2011 at 9:25 AM, Jarrett Johnson wrote:=0A>=0A>Kell= y... first things.. I'm no=A0 'EE'...=A0 just have used these before.=A0 Bo= ttom line is they are only good for switching AC current. To turn on or off= they need a zero crossing voltage [when the AC sinoidal wave goes from + t= o - or VS=A0] since DC doesn't=A0have that same waveform=A0[or at least not= a zero crossing wave] they don't work with DC. You are pretty much stuck w= / a smaller 'ice cube' type mechanical relay for anything DC.=A0=A0=A0=A0 T= he other issue with these SSR's [if you should have a used for them in the = AC side of things] is they can and often do,=A0fail 'closed' such that you = cannot turn off what ever it is that your switching.=A0 I've had this happe= n a couple times [I used these on my cnc mill]=A0 and it can be....=A0 a bi= t scary.=A0=A0=0A>>=0A>>Fwiw=0A>>=0A>>Jarrett=0A>>=0A>>ps- I think my summe= r flying schedule is starting to wind down to the place where I could actua= lly get some laser scanning done... I've been home a grand total of less th= an 1/2 the weekends since the start of spring due to flying. I'm not compla= ining but it doesn't make my other projects run too smoothly!=A0 Currently = have my mill all torn appart while I upgrade some electronic's and servo dr= ives/motors on it.=A0 If I was ever to look like the mad scientist, now wou= ld be the time.=A0 Complete w/ hair sticking out every which way, wires spa= rking and the odd release of the 'magic' smoke.. :D=A0 [ok.. sparking and s= moke hasn't happened yet but... ya just never know when it might!!] =0A>>= =0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>On Tue, 23 Aug 2011 08:12:00 -0700 (PDT), Kelly Troyer = wrote:=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>>=0A>>>Ed & Group,=0A>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 I brought= =A0up the question of possible use of Solid State Relays (SSR)=A0to replace= the =0A>>>electro-mechanical contactors most of us use in our flying elect= rical systems but I need=A0=0A>>>to depend on the smarter=A0"EE" (Electroni= c Engineer) types of our group to tell me if this=0A>>>would be a good idea= ...........To the electrically challenged (Me) they look good.......Light= =0A>>>weight, small, low operating voltage (down to 3 volts), low current d= raw, low voltage drop,=0A>>>high surge amp survival, etc..............They = do require a heat sink to utilize their maximum=0A>>>amp capibility........= ....They do cost considerably more than the contactors but do not wear=0A>>= >or degrade and if used within their limits will probably last longer than = me...........=0A>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 I have included a link to the company= that made the SSR that I have purchased on=0A>>>blind faith that it would = serve as my master relay........It is a=A0"Power-IO"=A0model HDD-06V75=0A>>= >which has been upgraded since my purchase by the HDD-06V75E which will ope= rate at=0A>>>a lower voltage,lower drop and lower current draw............B= oth versions will stay=A0operated =0A>>>at down to 1 volt..........Looking = forward for a critique of this idea pro or con...............<:)=0A>>>=0A>>= >=0A>>>http://www.power-io.com/products/hdd.htm=0A>>>=0A>>>http://www.power= -io.com/library/databulletin/hdd-family.pdf=0A>>>=0A>>>http://www.power-io.= com/library/databulletin/hdd-e-family.pdf=0A>>>=A0=A0=0A>>>Kelly Troyer=0A>= >>"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A>>>"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A>>>"RWS"_RD1C/E= C2/EM2=0A>>>"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A>>>"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turb= o=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>From: Ed Anderson =0A>>>To: R= otary motors in aircraft =0A>>>Sent: Monday, A= ugust 22, 2011 8:37 PM=0A>>>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One Battery - Two Batt= ery was [FlyRotary] Re: Batteries=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>Yes, Kelly, back a few y= ears ago, I did look into them. The models I looked at had some strange cha= racteristics that I didn't fully understand (and didn't take the time to), = so I passed.=A0 Besides in my case 3 volts would taken me a bit closer to t= he airport before the relay let loose, but would have done nothing to provi= de a solution for my problem - head up and locked {:>).=0A>>>=A0=0A>>>I'm s= till waiting for the 16X before I start anything major new on my aircraft= =A0 - hope won't have to wait too much longer.=0A>>>=A0=0A>>>Ed=0A>>>=A0=0A= >>>=A0=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>From: Kelly Troyer =0A>>>Sent: Monday, August 22, 2= 011 8:48 PM=0A>>>To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>>>Subject: [FlyRotary] O= ne Battery - Two Battery was [FlyRotary] Re: Batteries=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>Ed,= =0A>>>=A0 Have you ever considered "Solid State Relays" for=A0 contactors..= ........The DC versions will operate =0A>>>at down to 3 volts and draw a lo= t less=A0amperage than the electro mechanical versions...........=A0=0A>>>= =0A>>>Kelly Troyer=0A>>>"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A>>>"13B ROTARY"_ En= gine=0A>>>"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A>>>"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A>>>"TU= RBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>From: Ed Anderson =0A>>>To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>>>Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 4:12 PM=0A>>>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = One Battery - Two Battery was [FlyRotary] Re: Batteries=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>Ye= s, I have also found my GPS can get confused - especially in the inner city= (where you need it the most).=A0 So can my brain when tired and/or under= =A0 pressure - the old brain can do some not so funny things.=0A>>>=A0=0A>>= >I left out one important fact about why the switch in the wrong position c= aused the engine out landing.=A0 =0A>>>=A0=0A>>>When I had designed that sw= itch in to disengage the battery from the alternator (in case of an over vo= ltage condition), the switch not only removed the battery from the alternat= or line - but also all my critical systems (fuel, ignition) which were "sma= rtly" tied to my battery bus.=A0 So even though the alternator was putting = out plenty of power - even if the battery had been stone, cold dead, it cou= ld have powered all of=A0those power hungry devices.=A0 But having all of t= hat on the battery bus and the battery bus disconnected from alternator - t= hat pulled that battery down even quicker.=A0=0A>>>=A0=0A>>>So the fact tha= t it last 45 minutes including cranking drain for engine start says a lot a= bout the Odyssey PC 680.=0A>>>=A0=0A>>>=A0=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>From: Tom Walte= r =0A>>>Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 2:44 PM=0A>>>To: Rotary motors in air= craft =0A>>>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One Battery - Two Battery was [FlyRota= ry] Re: Batteries=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>Ed,=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>Thanks.=A0 I rememb= ered you discussing it, but now it makes sense why you didn't see the low v= oltage warning from the battery.=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>I know that 'fixation' is= sue, all to well.=A0=A0 On business I'm always running between meetings in = new cities, and got to the point where I really loved (& blindly trusted) m= y Garmin GPS.=A0 Well in Phoenix there was an "W.Shangri-LaRd" vs "E.=A0 Sh= angri-La Rd". Van full of hungry people wanting dinner, and I kept followin= g the GPS... despite a passenger in the back telling me I was taking the wr= ong route.=A0 I just figured the GPS was smarter as it rcd traffic informat= ion, and would get us there faster!=A0 Had I thought to look at a map, or l= istened the my passenger, but with a load of people, 5pm traffic, and overl= oad after a day in the sun.... my brain wasn't working.=A0 Live and learn!= =A0=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>Tom=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>From: Ed Anderson =0A>>>To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>>>Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 12:27 PM=0A>>>Subject: [FlyRotary] On= e Battery - Two Battery was [FlyRotary] Re: Batteries=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>Actu= ally, Tom, =A0in that particular incident - a second battery would have onl= y=A0enabled me to fly too far away from the only safe airport to make a ret= urn and dead stick into.=A0 IF I had realized the root cause (a switch acci= dently put in the wrong position) then one battery would have worked just a= s well as two {:>).=A0 =0A>>>=A0=0A>>>Having said that, I certainly would n= ot try to get anyone to change their mind about using two batteries.=A0.=A0= Some folks would not feel comfortable even with two batteries - but, would = add a second alternator, etc.=A0 So,=A0you have to think through your scena= rios, the risk involved and your personal risk tolerance.=A0 Yes, Bob now h= as several good electrical designs - for just about any kind of power syste= m you could come up with.=A0 Back in 1992, I had never heard of Aeroelectri= c or Bob.=0A>>>=A0=0A>>>=A0=0A>>>=A0=0A>>>But, since my previous engine out= almost 5 years previous had been fuel related and the engine was sputterin= g in a similar manner - my diagnostic side of the brain got locked in to=A0= searching =A0for a fuel problem (again) - but even switching tanks did no g= ood - because, this time the "fuel problem" was a decreasing electrical pow= er.=A0 This incident clearly pointed out the need for an emergency check li= st that involved checking both fuel AND electrical systems.=A0 Coming up wi= th one in your head with the engine sputtering is not recommended {:>)=0A>>= >=A0=0A>>>Contributing factors were two early design decisions that on hind= sight revealed shortcomings.=A0=A0=0A>>>=A0=0A>>>One was an electrical syst= em design that permitted my voltmeter to keep showing me the 13.8 volts bei= ng generated by the alternator while the battery voltage was steadly decrea= sing.=A0 Yes, I had a low-voltage light right in front of my eyes - but, it= was wired into the alternator powered circuit - so never showed low voltag= e because the alternator voltage was fine - up to the point the relay relea= sed.=0A>>>=A0=0A>>>=A0=A0 Now,=A0=A0had=A0 it occurred to me I might have a= n electrical problem - and switched the volt meter to the battery (instead = of alternator) AND had thought to observe it, I would have seen the battery= voltage decreasing and that MIGHT have got me looking for an electrical pr= oblem rather than a fuel problem.=A0 But, when you get your head locked int= o one focus - and you truly have mental blinders on, NOT GOOD!=0A>>>=A0=0A>= >>The second design deficiency was that =A0the relay holding the alternator= On-Line was provided current solely =A0by the battery - so guess what happ= ened when the battery juice got too low to hold the alternator on-line?=A0 = Right "CLACK!!!!!"=A0 followed immediately by all lights, radios, LEDS, pan= el going dark.=A0 It gets even lonelier when the lights go out.=A0 Had I tw= o batteries - all of this would have happened further from my emergency air= port in Salem, Al.=0A>>>=A0=0A>>>No, I have not added the second battery ba= ck in after the incident =A0- because in my particular case, the incident h= ad nothing to do with one battery vs two battery=A0 - it was a case of a mi= s-positioned switch which the pilot never recognized was the cause - until = later on the ground, cleaning off the seat cushion.=A0 The corrective actio= n was to put a switch guard over that particular switch so it could NOT be = accidently toggled incorrectly=A0AND rewire my relay so that a dead battery= would no longer prevent my system from using the power of a perfectly good= alternator.=0A>>>=A0=0A>>>But, this is just my perspective - provided for = anyone to glean what they wish from it - if that is two batteries, two alte= rnators or what have you, then as always in this hobby, that is up to indiv= idual choice.=A0=0A>>>=A0=0A>>>=A0Just don't make the same dumb mistakes I = made, we know how those turned out=A0- advance the state of the art and mak= e NEW mistakes {:>)=0A>>>=A0=0A>>>Oh, yes, the switch I accidently activate= d (I think I probably hit it with my foot getting out of the aircraft at th= e previous refueling stop) was one that enabled me to detach my battery fro= m the alternator.=A0 The thought at design time was that if my alternator r= an-away with high voltage, I could isolate the battery from the alternator = thereby preventing the battery from overheating/boiling and get to an emerg= ency landing on battery power alone.=A0 Seemed like a good idea at the time= .=0A>>>=A0=0A>>>Ed=0A>>>=A0=0A>>>Edward L. Anderson=0A>>>Anderson Electroni= c Enterprises LLC=0A>>>305 Reefton Road=0A>>>Weddington, NC 28104=0A>>>http= ://www.andersonee.com=0A>>>http://www.eicommander.com=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>= >>From: Tom Walter =0A>>>Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 12:35 PM=0A>>>To: Ro= tary motors in aircraft =0A>>>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Batteries=0A>>>=0A>>= >=0A>>>Joe,=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>Which Bob Knuckles system?=A0 Z19?=0A>>>=0A>>>= =0A>>>I realize Ed is happy with one battery, but I like two batteries.=A0 = TheTHUNK of relays all popping open and the realization of "I turned off th= e alternator,and voltage dropped way too low.... followed with LAND NOW!" w= ould have convinced Ed tohave put the second battery back in! It sure got m= y attention on why two batteries is a good thing!(Great Story, but I'll let= Ed tell it!)=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>So two batteries, and a BIG RED LIGHT = with "low voltage" will go on my panel.=0A>>>=0A>>>I did the spread sheet w= ith 17AH batteries and flying time. Add in Night, and noplace to easily lan= d.... two batties seem like a good trade off.=A0 My biggest shockwas the FO= RD style contactor needed 1Amp draw to remain closed.=A0 Shutting down none= ssential, but leaving contactors, PDF, ECU and coils....=A0=A0 System draw = is around 15 Amps. 17AHimplies you'd have an hour, but at 15Amp draw... mor= e like 30-40 minutes, hence two batteriesas 1 hour flying time makes findin= g a landing strip a little easier.=A0 =0A>>>=0A>>>Tom=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>= >>From: Ed Anderson =0A>>>To: Rotary motors in a= ircraft =0A>>>Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 11= :20 AM=0A>>>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Batteries=0A>>>=0A>>>Joe, I started ou= t using two Concord 25AH RGB each weighing 22 lbs for a total of over 44 lb= s of battery (some joked I could get home by using the start to crank the p= rop {:>)) !=A0 I then transition to two Odyssey PC-680 17AH batteries each = weighing 14 lbs for a total of 28 lbs.=A0 Then after 6 years of flying with= two batteries and never using the second one - except to help crank on a c= old morning, I removed one of them.=A0 Have now been flying for over 4-5 ye= ars with one Odyssey 14lbs.=A0 I swap it out every two years.=0A>>>=0A>>>Ed= =0A>>>=0A>>>--------------------------------------------------=0A>>>From: <= jskmberki@windstream.net>=0A>>>Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 11:59 AM=0A>>>= To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" =0A>>>Subject:= [FlyRotary] Batteries=0A>>>=0A>>>> What size an type of batteries are requ= ired for the rotary?=A0 I am leaning toward using 2 batteries and use Bob N= uckols system.=A0 Thanks for any help.=0A>>>> =0A>>>> Joe Berki=0A>>>> Limo= EZ=0A>>>> =0A>>>> --=0A>>>> Homepage:=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/=0A>>>> = Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.ht= ml =0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>--=0A>>>Homepage:=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/=0A>>>Ar= chive and UnSub:=A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.h= tml=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A= >>www.innovention-tech.com=0A>>=0A>>=0A>=0A=0A=0A=0Awww.innovention-tech.co= m --0-1127063678-1314117263=:86721 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jarret,
   &n= bsp; The "Power-IO" SSR's in my links are all for DC switching...........Many = different amp
capabilities to choo= se from.............
 
Kelly Troyer
"= DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS= "_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

From:= Jarrett Johnson <hjjohnson@sasktel.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrota= ry@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 11:21 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The Case for Solid state Relays (= SSR)

Thanks William..  I learned something new!!&nb= sp; Now I need to find some of these DC = ssr's for my cnc mill...&n= bsp; the mechanical relays are a pain in the long run due to well.. their m= echanical nature.  Gonna have to research this some more. Is DC SSR's a new development from recent ye= ars?  Every EE I've talked = to about these in the last 3-4yrs has always spoke of them as AC relays.
Thanks!

Jarrett

On Tue, 23 Aug 2011 10:10:31 -0600, Will= iam Wilson wrote:
Not all SSR's require AC current.  A DC SSR is, effectively, a giant MOSFET transistor.  There is, however, a difference bet= ween a DC and AC SSR, so you nee= d to get the right kind.  An AC SS= R will not switch DC current correctly, and a DC SSR will pass half of an AC wave.

Ed's descr= iption of the pros and cons is pretty accurate.  SSRs also tolerate vibration much better, and as long= as you manage their heat, generally fail less often.  The heat situat= ion is different, as it depends on the current flowing, vs. a conventional = relay which pretty much generates the same heat whenever it's closed based = on how much current you activate it with.

Although we tend to think of solid state electron= ics as being more delicate, SSRs= can be made as big and tough as you need.  They are used in power sub= stations and industrial motor controllers, among other things.  The on= ly real reason to use a mechanical relay is for cost, or possibly heat reas= ons.

On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 9:25 AM, Jarr= ett Johnson <hjjohnson@sasktel.net> wr= ote:
Kelly... first things= .. I'm no  'EE'...  ju= st have used these before.  Bottom line is they are only good for swit= ching AC current. To turn on or off they need a zero crossing voltage [when= the AC sinoidal wave goes from = + to - or VS ] since DC doesn't have that same waveform [or = at least not a zero crossing wave] they don't work with DC. You are pretty = much stuck w/ a smaller 'ice cube' type mechanical relay for anything DC.&n= bsp;    The other issue with these SSR's [if you should have a used for them in the AC side = of things] is they can and often do, fail 'closed' such that you canno= t turn off what ever it is that your switching.  I've had this happen = a couple times [I used these on my cnc m= ill]  and it can be....  a bit scary.  

Fwiw

Jarrett

ps- I think my summer flying schedule is star= ting to wind down to the place where I could actually get some laser scanni= ng done... I've been home a grand total of less than 1/2 the weekends since= the start of spring due to flying. I'm not complaining but it doesn't make= my other projects run too smoothly!  Currently have my mill all torn = appart while I upgrade some electronic's and servo drives/motors= on it.  If I was ever to look like the mad scientist, now would be th= e time.  Complete w/ hair sticking out every which way, wires sparking= and the odd release of the 'magic' smoke.. :D  [ok.. sparking and smoke hasn't happened yet but... ya = just never know when it might!!]=20




On Tue, 23 Aug 2011 08:12:00 -= 0700 (PDT), Kelly Troyer = wrote:

Ed & Group,
       I brought up the question of= possible use of Solid State Relays (SSR) to replace the
electro-mechan= ical contactors mos= t of us use in our flying electrical systems but I need 
to depend on the smarter "EE" (Electronic Engineer) types of our group to tell me if= this
would be a good idea...........To the electrically challenged (Me) the= y look good.......Light
weight, small, low operating voltage (down to 3 volts), low current dr= aw, low voltage drop,
high surge amp survival, etc..............They do require a heat sink = to utilize their maximum
amp capibility= ............They do cost considerably more than the contactors but do not wear
or degrade and if used within their limits will probably last longer t= han me...........
       I have included a link to the com= pany that made the SSR that I have purchased on
blind faith that it would serve as my master relay........It is a = ;"Power-IO" model HDD= -06V75
which has been upgraded since my purchase by the HDD-06V75E which will operate at
a lower voltage,lower drop and lower current draw............Both vers= ions will stay operated
at down to 1 volt..........Looking forward for a critique of this idea= pro or con...............<:)
 
 
 
 
  
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS= "_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_= TO4E50 Turbo

From: Ed Anderson <eanderson@carol= ina.rr.com>
To: R= otary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net><= BR>Sent: Monday, August 22,= 2011 8:37 PM
Subject: [= FlyRotary] Re: One Battery - Two Battery was [FlyRotary] Re: Batteries
<= /SPAN>
Yes, Kelly, back a few years ago, I= did look into them. The models I looked at had some strange characteristic= s that I didn't fully understand (and didn't take the time to), so I passed= .  Besides in my case 3 volts would taken me a bit closer to the airpo= rt before the relay let loose, but would have done nothing to provide a sol= ution for my problem - head up and locked {:>).
 
I'm still waiting for the 16X befor= e I start anything major new on my aircraft  - hope won't have to wait= too much longer.
 
Ed
 
 

Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 8:48 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] One Battery - Two Battery was [FlyRotary] = Re: Batteries

Ed,
  Have you ever considered "Solid State Relays" for  <= SPAN>contactors..........= The DC versions will operate
at down to 3 volts and draw a lot less amperage than the electro mechanical ve= rsions........... 
 
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS= "_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_= TO4E50 Turbo

From: Ed Anderson <eanderson@carol= ina.rr.com>
To: R= otary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net><= BR>Sent: Monday, August 22,= 2011 4:12 PM
Subject: [= FlyRotary] Re: One Battery - Two Battery was [FlyRotary] Re: Batteries
<= /SPAN>
Yes, I have also found my GPS can get confused - espec= ially in the inner city (where you need it the most).  So can my brain= when tired and/or under  pressure - the old brain can do some not so = funny things.
 
I left out one important fact about= why the switch in the wrong position caused the engine out landing.  =
 
When I had designed that switch in = to disengage the battery from the alternator (in case of an over voltage co= ndition), the switch not only removed the battery from the alternator line = - but also all my critical systems (fuel, ignition) which were "smartly" ti= ed to my battery bus.  So even though the alternator was putting out p= lenty of power - even if the battery had been stone, cold dead, it could ha= ve powered all of those power hungry devices.  But having all of = that on the battery bus and the battery bus disconnected from alternator - = that pulled that battery down even quicker. 
 
So the fact that it last 45 minutes= including cranking drain for engine start says a lot about the Odyssey PC = 680.
 
 

From: Tom Walter
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 2:44 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One Battery - Two Battery was [FlyRota= ry] Re: Batteries

Ed,

Thanks.  I remembered y= ou discussing it, but now it makes sense why you didn't see the low voltage= warning from the battery.

I know that 'fixation' issue, all = to well.   On business I'm always running between meetings in new= cities, and got to the point where I really loved (& blindly trusted) = my Garmin GPS.  Well in Phoenix t= here was an "W.Shangri-La = Rd" vs "E.  Sh= angri-La Rd". Van full of hungry people wanting = dinner, and I kept following the = GPS... despite a passenger in the back telling me I was takin= g the wrong route.  I just figured the GPS was smarter as it rcd traffic information, and would get us there= faster!  Had I thought to look at a map, or listened the my passenger= , but with a load of people, 5pm traffic, and overload after a day in the s= un.... my brain wasn't working.  Live and learn! 

Tom

From: Ed Anderson <eanderson@carol= ina.rr.com>
To: R= otary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net><= BR>Sent: Monday, August 22,= 2011 12:27 PM
Subject: = [FlyRotary] One Battery - Two Battery was [FlyRotary] Re: Batteries

Actually, Tom,  in that partic= ular incident - a second battery would have only enabled me to fly too= far away from the only safe airport to make a return and dead stick into.&= nbsp; IF I had realized the root cause (a switch accidently put in the wrong position) = then one battery would have worked just as well as two {:>). 
 
Having said that, I certainly would= not try to get anyone to change their mind about using two batteries. = ;. Some folks would not feel comfortable even with two batteries - but= , would add a second alternator, etc.  So, you have to think thro= ugh your scenarios, the risk involved and your personal risk tolerance.&nbs= p; Yes, Bob now has several good electrical designs - for just about any ki= nd of power system you could come up with.  Back in 1992, I had never = heard of Aeroelectric or Bob.
 
 
 
But, since my previous engine out a= lmost 5 years previous had been fuel related and the engine was sputtering = in a similar manner - my diagnostic side of the brain got locked in to = ;searching  for a fuel problem (again) - but even switching tanks did = no good - because, this time the "fuel problem" was a decreasing electrical= power.  This incident clearly pointed out the need for an emergency c= heck list that involved checking both fuel AND electrical systems.  Co= ming up with one in your head with the engine sputtering is not recommended= {:>)
 
Contributing factors were two early= design decisions that on hindsight revealed shortcomings.  
 
One was an electrical system design= that permitted my voltmeter to keep showing me the 13.8 volts being genera= ted by the alternator while the battery voltage was steadly decreasing.  Yes, I had a low= -voltage light right in front of my eyes - but, it was wired into the alter= nator powered circuit - so never showed low voltage because the alternator = voltage was fine - up to the point the relay released.
 
   Now,  had&nb= sp; it occurred to me I might have an electrical problem - and switched the= volt meter to the battery (instead of alternator) AND had thought to obser= ve it, I would have seen the battery voltage decreasing and that MIGHT have= got me looking for an electrical problem rather than a fuel problem. = But, when you get your head locked into one focus - and you truly have men= tal blinders on, NOT GOOD!
 
The second design deficiency was th= at  the relay holding the alternator On-Line was provided current sole= ly  by the battery - so guess what happened when the battery juice got= too low to hold the alternator on-line?  Right "CLACK!!!!!"  fol= lowed immediately by all lights, radios, LEDS, panel going dark.  It gets even lonelier w= hen the lights go out.  Had I two batteries - all of this would have h= appened further from my emergency airport in Salem, Al.
 
No, I have not added the second bat= tery back in after the incident  - because in my particular case, the = incident had nothing to do with one battery vs two battery  - it was a= case of a mis-posi= tioned switch which the pilot never recognized was the cause - until later = on the ground, cleaning off the seat cushion.  The corrective action w= as to put a switch guard over that particular switch so it could NOT be accidently toggled inc= orrectly AND rewire my relay so that a dead battery would no longer pr= event my system from using the power of a perfectly good alternator.=
 
But, this is just my perspective - = provided for anyone to glean what they wish from it - if that is two batter= ies, two alternators or what have you, then as always in this hobby, that i= s up to individual choice. 
 
 Just don't make the same d= umb mistakes I made, we know how those turned out - advance the state = of the art and make NEW mistakes {:>)
 
Oh, yes, the switch I accidently activated (I think I = probably hit it with my foot getting out of the aircraft at the previous re= fueling stop) was one that enabled me to detach my battery from the alterna= tor.  The thought at design time was that if my alternator ran-away wi= th high voltage, I could isolate the battery from the alternator thereby pr= eventing the battery from overheating/boiling and get to an emergency landi= ng on battery power alone.  Seemed like a good idea at the time.
 
Ed
 
Edward L. Anderson
Anderson Elec= tronic Enterprises LLC
305 Reefton = Road
Weddington,= NC 28104
http://www.andersonee.com
http://www.eicommander.com

From: Tom Walter
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 12:35 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Batteries

Joe,

Which Bob Knuckles system?  Z19?

I realize Ed is happy with one battery, but I like two batteries= .  The THUNK of relays all popping open and the realizati= on of "I turned off the alternator, and voltage dropped way to= o low.... followed with LAND NOW!" would have convinced Ed to = have put the second battery back in! It sure got my attention on why two ba= tteries is a good thing!(Great Story, but I'll let Ed tell it!= )

So two batteries, and a BIG RED LIGHT with "low voltage" will go= on my panel.

I did the spread sheet with 17AH batterie= s and flying time. Add in Night, and no place to easily land..= .. two batties seem= like a good trade off.  My biggest shock was the FORD st= yle contactor neede= d 1Amp draw to remain closed.  Shutting down non essentia= l, but leaving contactors<= /SPAN>, PDF, ECU an= d coils....   System draw is around 15 Amps. 17AH im= plies you'd have an hour, but at 15Amp draw... more like 30-40 minutes, hen= ce two batteries as 1 hour flying time makes finding a landing= strip a little easier. 

Tom

From: Ed Anderson <eanderson@carol= ina.rr.com>
To: R= otary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net><= BR>Sent: Monday, August 22,= 2011 11:20 AM
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re: Batteries

Joe, I started out using two Concor= d 25AH RGB each wei= ghing 22 lbs for a total of over 44 lbs of battery (some joked I could get home by using the = start to crank the prop {:>)) !  I then transition to two Odyssey P= C-680 17AH batteries each weighing 14 lbs for a total of 28 lbs.  Then= after 6 years of flying with two batteries and never using the second one = - except to help crank on a cold morning, I removed one of them.  Have= now been flying for over 4-5 years with one Odyssey 14lbs.  I swap it= out every two years.

Ed

------------------------------------= --------------
From: <jskmberki@windstream.net>
Sent= : Monday, August 22, 2011 11:59 AM
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <<= A href=3D"http://mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net" rel=3Dnofollow target= =3D_blank>flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Batte= ries

> What size an type of batteries are required for the rotary?  I am leaning toward using 2 batteries and use Bob Nuckols system.  Thanks = for any help.
>
> Joe Berki
> Limo EZ
>
> --
> Homepage:  http://www.flyrota= ry.com/
> Archive and U= nSub: http://mail.lancaironline.n= et:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html


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