X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nm3.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.44.130] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.1) with SMTP id 5101072 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 11:12:38 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.44.130; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: from [98.139.44.105] by nm3.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Aug 2011 15:12:01 -0000 Received: from [98.139.44.89] by tm10.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Aug 2011 15:12:01 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1026.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Aug 2011 15:12:01 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 571227.19821.bm@omp1026.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 91813 invoked by uid 60001); 23 Aug 2011 15:12:01 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1314112321; bh=aLB+im7hLL8bm8URo2jptc+DPn+j0+JycK3CwxGaPXM=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=EmnR7bftVUPP/bcjQfKL0LwVPiL7tQYcAIxEtlBPl9l4d7hW4UieEJj+RST/3vNLT6xB32uScbJ2m/oqNfZdw8d2r/SnfAvYfrwVMm6eLuOA/SU6yp1ryW77MyZkynttuEeYUcpebLt6hCnUCwnwGwvACueRpNNio7v7QXcwN2I= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=att.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=zxtPm/nzjRFNwP4tF9epCOafjAm9j2FDxMcNex45yYXUidAASf67Q2XcK27tWoVjuYWJ9TpG8vLC3jc5EdhY0+y/wic6cnHbL2AzG5LlQsrB6Gi2rqA7lHQHcz4jOqwBCIjHfP/IIMyYboAgZKK8R31IB5a6nnYsDIOAZJ/Czn0=; X-YMail-OSG: sRIyeYUVM1l7RQngO0_su.n0fD5aDGUwcOcgAbkWlQMhW_b jZFYQQogd9DK0Iukm7B_8Ts02_.rbmq_ksF_J75Wf9gnfb2wNKCD9_SM1o_b 4B.MzkEw1F5m2lxgCYCcgPyYtKK5niohY4goa.zQ8ZzMsYJNWFHS2AGtMy.4 bBx.ugH_MW3ipCa1V.4WyQJtjdxqVNFB_1W96aiSz.BHbOE.XDjoeXgiZWtv rnEuYqcWOzu1ZzCB5qQJkUixOIQ6OVLl_rHbCjBmOXJ6HE.wqVv9e0QzX5SV .d.YzxQvP1nicnKIX0MmHyOuTGaKvjq2K1ykZVgZ0pNeOBUqMFvAV10fHpsb _1bew3ARdi7h5zDtFEJ9ZnaJs.6U1Pbmh8EKds85b4nTAq2ZBFqpvhjmbJoN pxT0GN6myRi4jPJ5ldiwKLzKREJIoXRHUaRPjhd_3jo.d1h7hakv0HAiWfX8 rP.L.Y3iRXtPKr2qslWsWDfJSoMcgDgl9ZMocIHCWzxYvjnUennkVgDHDOCt earoURgD5wK7O5jK2BgK.cNVdRqvruzvR3Xv0iaqUYgm0fozUyUyOxVwXpdc 3YSp.TB2A1Z7N3Izwr10z15WjaLcmtq3_p89p0KOUuOXBvCNxrLyJLBYCpvd 2Q0NPNQGkRML7rFV.VEk1NhY- Received: from [208.114.32.15] by web83908.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 08:12:00 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.113.313619 References: Message-ID: <1314112320.82742.YahooMailNeo@web83908.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 08:12:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Kelly Troyer Reply-To: Kelly Troyer Subject: The Case for Solid state Relays (SSR) To: Rotary motors in aircraft MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1397329613-1314112320=:82742" --0-1397329613-1314112320=:82742 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0A=0AEd & Group,=0A=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 I brought=A0up the question of possi= ble use of Solid State Relays (SSR)=A0to replace the =0Aelectro-mechanical = contactors most of us use in our flying electrical systems but I need=A0=0A= to depend on the smarter=A0"EE" (Electronic Engineer) types of our group to= tell me if this=0Awould be a good idea...........To the electrically chall= enged (Me) they look good.......Light=0Aweight, small, low operating voltag= e (down to 3 volts), low current draw, low voltage drop,=0Ahigh surge amp s= urvival, etc..............They do require a heat sink to utilize their maxi= mum=0Aamp capibility............They do cost considerably more than the con= tactors but do not wear=0Aor degrade and if used within their limits will p= robably last longer than me...........=0A=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 I have included= a link to the company that made the SSR that I have purchased on=0Ablind f= aith that it would serve as my master relay........It is a=A0"Power-IO"=A0m= odel HDD-06V75=0Awhich has been upgraded since my purchase by the HDD-06V75= E which will operate at=0Aa lower voltage,lower drop and lower current draw= ............Both versions will stay=A0operated =0Aat down to 1 volt........= ..Looking forward for a critique of this idea pro or con...............<:)= =0A=0A=0Ahttp://www.power-io.com/products/hdd.htm=0A=0Ahttp://www.power-io.= com/library/databulletin/hdd-family.pdf=0A=0Ahttp://www.power-io.com/librar= y/databulletin/hdd-e-family.pdf=0A=A0=A0=0AKelly Troyer=0A"DYKE DELTA JD2" = (Eventually)=0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A"MISTRAL"_Backpl= ate/Oil Manifold=0A"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A=0AFrom: Ed Anderson =0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft =0ASent: Monday, August 22, 2011 8:37 PM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re:= One Battery - Two Battery was [FlyRotary] Re: Batteries=0A=0A=0AYes, Kelly= , back a few years ago, I did look into them. The models I looked at had so= me strange characteristics that I didn't fully understand (and didn't take = the time to), so I passed.=A0 Besides in my case 3 volts would taken me a b= it closer to the airport before the relay let loose, but would have done no= thing to provide a solution for my problem - head up and locked {:>).=0A=A0= =0AI'm still waiting for the 16X before I start anything major new on my ai= rcraft=A0 - hope won't have to wait too much longer.=0A=A0=0AEd=0A=A0=0A=A0= =0A=0A=0AFrom: Kelly Troyer =0ASent: Monday, August 22, 2011 8:48 PM=0ATo: = Rotary motors in aircraft =0ASubject: [FlyRotary] One Battery - Two Battery= was [FlyRotary] Re: Batteries=0A=0AEd,=0A=A0 Have you ever considered "Sol= id State Relays" for=A0 contactors..........The DC versions will operate = =0Aat down to 3 volts and draw a lot less=A0amperage than the electro mecha= nical versions...........=A0=0A=0AKelly Troyer=0A"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventual= ly)=0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil M= anifold=0A"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A=0AFrom: Ed Anderson =0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft = =0ASent: Monday, August 22, 2011 4:12 PM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: One Bat= tery - Two Battery was [FlyRotary] Re: Batteries=0A=0A=0AYes, I have also f= ound my GPS can get confused - especially in the inner city (where you need= it the most).=A0 So can my brain when tired and/or under=A0 pressure - the= old brain can do some not so funny things.=0A=A0=0AI left out one importan= t fact about why the switch in the wrong position caused the engine out lan= ding.=A0 =0A=A0=0AWhen I had designed that switch in to disengage the batte= ry from the alternator (in case of an over voltage condition), the switch n= ot only removed the battery from the alternator line - but also all my crit= ical systems (fuel, ignition) which were "smartly" tied to my battery bus.= =A0 So even though the alternator was putting out plenty of power - even if= the battery had been stone, cold dead, it could have powered all of=A0thos= e power hungry devices.=A0 But having all of that on the battery bus and th= e battery bus disconnected from alternator - that pulled that battery down = even quicker.=A0=0A=A0=0ASo the fact that it last 45 minutes including cran= king drain for engine start says a lot about the Odyssey PC 680.=0A=A0=0A= =A0=0A=0A=0AFrom: Tom Walter =0ASent: Monday, August 22, 2011 2:44 PM=0ATo:= Rotary motors in aircraft =0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: One Battery - Two Ba= ttery was [FlyRotary] Re: Batteries=0A=0AEd,=0A=0AThanks.=A0 I remembered y= ou discussing it, but now it makes sense why you didn't see the low voltage= warning from the battery.=0A=0AI know that 'fixation' issue, all to well.= =A0=A0 On business I'm always running between meetings in new cities, and g= ot to the point where I really loved (& blindly trusted) my Garmin GPS.=A0 = Well in Phoenix there was an "W.Shangri-LaRd" vs "E.=A0 Shangri-La Rd". Van= full of hungry people wanting dinner, and I kept following the GPS... desp= ite a passenger in the back telling me I was taking the wrong route.=A0 I j= ust figured the GPS was smarter as it rcd traffic information, and would ge= t us there faster!=A0 Had I thought to look at a map, or listened the my pa= ssenger, but with a load of people, 5pm traffic, and overload after a day i= n the sun.... my brain wasn't working.=A0 Live and learn!=A0=0A=0ATom=0A=0A= =0AFrom: Ed Anderson =0ATo: Rotary motors in air= craft =0ASent: Monday, August 22, 2011 12:27 P= M=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] One Battery - Two Battery was [FlyRotary] Re: Batt= eries=0A=0A=0AActually, Tom, =A0in that particular incident - a second batt= ery would have only=A0enabled me to fly too far away from the only safe air= port to make a return and dead stick into.=A0 IF I had realized the root ca= use (a switch accidently put in the wrong position) then one battery would = have worked just as well as two {:>).=A0 =0A=A0=0AHaving said that, I certa= inly would not try to get anyone to change their mind about using two batte= ries.=A0.=A0Some folks would not feel comfortable even with two batteries -= but, would add a second alternator, etc.=A0 So,=A0you have to think throug= h your scenarios, the risk involved and your personal risk tolerance.=A0 Ye= s, Bob now has several good electrical designs - for just about any kind of= power system you could come up with.=A0 Back in 1992, I had never heard of= Aeroelectric or Bob.=0A=A0=0A=A0=0A=A0=0ABut, since my previous engine out= almost 5 years previous had been fuel related and the engine was sputterin= g in a similar manner - my diagnostic side of the brain got locked in to=A0= searching =A0for a fuel problem (again) - but even switching tanks did no g= ood - because, this time the "fuel problem" was a decreasing electrical pow= er.=A0 This incident clearly pointed out the need for an emergency check li= st that involved checking both fuel AND electrical systems.=A0 Coming up wi= th one in your head with the engine sputtering is not recommended {:>)=0A= =A0=0AContributing factors were two early design decisions that on hindsigh= t revealed shortcomings.=A0=A0=0A=A0=0AOne was an electrical system design = that permitted my voltmeter to keep showing me the 13.8 volts being generat= ed by the alternator while the battery voltage was steadly decreasing.=A0 Y= es, I had a low-voltage light right in front of my eyes - but, it was wired= into the alternator powered circuit - so never showed low voltage because = the alternator voltage was fine - up to the point the relay released.=0A=A0= =0A=A0=A0 Now,=A0=A0had=A0 it occurred to me I might have an electrical pro= blem - and switched the volt meter to the battery (instead of alternator) A= ND had thought to observe it, I would have seen the battery voltage decreas= ing and that MIGHT have got me looking for an electrical problem rather tha= n a fuel problem.=A0 But, when you get your head locked into one focus - an= d you truly have mental blinders on, NOT GOOD!=0A=A0=0AThe second design de= ficiency was that =A0the relay holding the alternator On-Line was provided = current solely =A0by the battery - so guess what happened when the battery = juice got too low to hold the alternator on-line?=A0 Right "CLACK!!!!!"=A0 = followed immediately by all lights, radios, LEDS, panel going dark.=A0 It g= ets even lonelier when the lights go out.=A0 Had I two batteries - all of t= his would have happened further from my emergency airport in Salem, Al.=0A= =A0=0ANo, I have not added the second battery back in after the incident = =A0- because in my particular case, the incident had nothing to do with one= battery vs two battery=A0 - it was a case of a mis-positioned switch which= the pilot never recognized was the cause - until later on the ground, clea= ning off the seat cushion.=A0 The corrective action was to put a switch gua= rd over that particular switch so it could NOT be accidently toggled incorr= ectly=A0AND rewire my relay so that a dead battery would no longer prevent = my system from using the power of a perfectly good alternator.=0A=A0=0ABut,= this is just my perspective - provided for anyone to glean what they wish = from it - if that is two batteries, two alternators or what have you, then = as always in this hobby, that is up to individual choice.=A0=0A=A0=0A=A0Jus= t don't make the same dumb mistakes I made, we know how those turned out=A0= - advance the state of the art and make NEW mistakes {:>)=0A=A0=0AOh, yes, = the switch I accidently activated (I think I probably hit it with my foot g= etting out of the aircraft at the previous refueling stop) was one that ena= bled me to detach my battery from the alternator.=A0 The thought at design = time was that if my alternator ran-away with high voltage, I could isolate = the battery from the alternator thereby preventing the battery from overhea= ting/boiling and get to an emergency landing on battery power alone.=A0 See= med like a good idea at the time.=0A=A0=0AEd=0A=A0=0AEdward L. Anderson=0AA= nderson Electronic Enterprises LLC=0A305 Reefton Road=0AWeddington, NC 2810= 4=0Ahttp://www.andersonee.com=0Ahttp://www.eicommander.com=0A=0A=0A=0AFrom:= Tom Walter =0ASent: Monday, August 22, 2011 12:35 PM=0ATo: Rotary motors i= n aircraft =0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: Batteries=0A=0AJoe,=0A=0AWhich Bob K= nuckles system?=A0 Z19?=0A=0AI realize Ed is happy with one battery, but I = like two batteries.=A0 TheTHUNK of relays all popping open and the realizat= ion of "I turned off the alternator,and voltage dropped way too low.... fol= lowed with LAND NOW!" would have convinced Ed tohave put the second battery= back in! It sure got my attention on why two batteries is a good thing!(Gr= eat Story, but I'll let Ed tell it!)=0A=0A=0ASo two batteries, and a BIG RE= D LIGHT with "low voltage" will go on my panel.=0AI did the spread sheet wi= th 17AH batteries and flying time. Add in Night, and noplace to easily land= .... two batties seem like a good trade off.=A0 My biggest shockwas the FOR= D style contactor needed 1Amp draw to remain closed.=A0 Shutting down nones= sential, but leaving contactors, PDF, ECU and coils....=A0=A0 System draw i= s around 15 Amps. 17AHimplies you'd have an hour, but at 15Amp draw... more= like 30-40 minutes, hence two batteriesas 1 hour flying time makes finding= a landing strip a little easier.=A0 =0A=0ATom=0A=0A=0AFrom: Ed Anderson =0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft =0ASent: Monday, August 22, 2011 11:20 AM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary= ] Re: Batteries=0A=0AJoe, I started out using two Concord 25AH RGB each wei= ghing 22 lbs for a total of over 44 lbs of battery (some joked I could get = home by using the start to crank the prop {:>)) !=A0 I then transition to t= wo Odyssey PC-680 17AH batteries each weighing 14 lbs for a total of 28 lbs= .=A0 Then after 6 years of flying with two batteries and never using the se= cond one - except to help crank on a cold morning, I removed one of them.= =A0 Have now been flying for over 4-5 years with one Odyssey 14lbs.=A0 I sw= ap it out every two years.=0A=0AEd=0A=0A-----------------------------------= ---------------=0AFrom: =0ASent: Monday, August 2= 2, 2011 11:59 AM=0ATo: "Rotary motors in aircraft" =0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Batteries=0A=0A> What size an type of batterie= s are required for the rotary?=A0 I am leaning toward using 2 batteries and= use Bob Nuckols system.=A0 Thanks for any help.=0A> =0A> Joe Berki=0A> Lim= o EZ=0A> =0A> --=0A> Homepage:=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/=0A> Archive and= UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html =0A=0A= =0A--=0AHomepage:=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/=0AArchive and UnSub:=A0 http= ://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html --0-1397329613-1314112320=:82742 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Ed & Group,
    = ;   I brought up the question of possible use of Solid State= Relays (SSR) to replace the
<= SPAN id=3Dmisspell-1>electro-mechanical contactors most of us use in our flying electrical s= ystems but I need 
to depend on the smarte= r "EE" (Electronic Engineer) types of our= group to tell me if this
would be a good idea..= .........To the electrically challenged (Me) they look good.......Light
weight, small, low ope= rating voltage (down to 3 volts), low current draw, low voltage drop,
= high surge amp survival, etc..............They do require a heat sink to ut= ilize their maximum
amp capibility............They do cost considerably more than the contactors but do not wear
or degrade and if used= within their limits will probably last longer than me...........
   &nbs= p;   I have included a link to the company that made the SSR that I have purchased on
blind faith that it wo= uld serve as my master relay........It is a "Power-IO" model HDD-06V75
which has been upgrade= d since my purchase by the HDD-06V75E which wi= ll operate at
= a lower voltage,lower drop and lower current draw............Both versions = will stay operated
at down to 1 volt..........Looking forward for a= critique of this idea pro or con...............<:)
 
 
 
 
  
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
= "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
"= TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

From: Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
= To: Rotary motors in aircraft = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 8:37 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One Battery - Two Batter= y was [FlyRotary] Re: Batteries

Yes, Kelly, back a few years ago, I did look into t= hem. The models I looked at had some strange characteristics that I didn't = fully understand (and didn't take the time to), so I passed.  Besides = in my case 3 volts would taken me a bit closer to the airport before the re= lay let loose, but would have done nothing to provide a solution for my pro= blem - head up and locked {:>).
 
I'm still waiting for the 16X before I start anythi= ng major new on my aircraft  - hope won't have to wait too much longer= .
 
Ed
 
 

Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 8:48 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] One Battery - Two Battery was [FlyRotary] = Re: Batteries

Ed,
  Have you ever considered "Solid State Relays" for  <= SPAN id=3Dmisspell-19>contactors..........The DC versions will opera= te
at down to 3 volts and draw a lot less amperage than the electro mechanical versions........... 
 
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE = DELTA JD2" (Eventually)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/E= M2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

From: Ed Anderson <eand= erson@carolina.rr.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
<= SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 4= :12 PM
Subject: [FlyRota= ry] Re: One Battery - Two Battery was [FlyRotary] Re: Batteries
<= BR>
Yes, I have also found my GP= S can get confused - especially in the inner city (where you need it= the most).  So can my brain when tired and/or under  pressure - = the old brain can do some not so funny things.
 
I left out one important fact about why the switch = in the wrong position caused the engine out landing. 
 
When I had designed that switch in to disengage the= battery from the alternator (in case of an over voltage condition), the sw= itch not only removed the battery from the alternator line - but also all m= y critical systems (fuel, ignition) which were "smartly" tied to my battery= bus.  So even though the alternator was putting out plenty of power -= even if the battery had been stone, cold dead, it could have powered all o= f those power hungry devices.  But having all of that on the batt= ery bus and the battery bus disconnected from alternator - that pulled that= battery down even quicker. 
 
So the fact that it last 45 minutes including crank= ing drain for engine start says a lot about the Odyssey PC 680.
 
 

From: Tom Walter
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 2:44 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One Battery - Two Battery was [FlyRota= ry] Re: Batteries

Ed,

Thanks.  I remembered you discussing it, but= now it makes sense why you didn't see the low voltage warning from the bat= tery.

I know that 'fixation' issue, all to well.   = On business I'm always running between meetings in new cities, and got to t= he point where I really loved (& blindly trusted) my Garmin GPS.  Well in Phoenix= there was an "W.Shangri-La <= /SPAN>Rd" vs "E.  Shangri-La Rd". Van full of hungry people wanting dinn= er, and I kept following the GPS... despite a= passenger in the back telling me I was taking the wrong route.  I jus= t figured the GPS was smarter as it rcd traffic information, and would get us there faste= r!  Had I thought to look at a map, or listened the my passenger, but = with a load of people, 5pm traffic, and overload after a day in the sun.... my brain wasn= 't working.  Live and learn! 

Tom

From: Ed Anderson <eand= erson@carolina.rr.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
<= SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 1= 2:27 PM
Subject: [FlyRot= ary] One Battery - Two Battery was [FlyRotary] Re: Batteries

Actually, Tom,  in that particular incident - = a second battery would have only enabled me to fly too far away from t= he only safe airport to make a return and dead stick into.  IF = I had realized the root cause (a switch accidently put in the wrong position) then one battery would have worked just as= well as two {:>). 
 
Having said that, I certainly would not try to get = anyone to change their mind about using two batteries. . Some fol= ks would not feel comfortable even with two batteries - but, would add a se= cond alternator, etc.  So, you have to think through your scenari= os, the risk involved and your personal risk tolerance.  Yes, Bob now = has several good electrical designs - for just about any kind of power syst= em you could come up with.  Back in 1992, I had never heard of Aeroelectric or Bob.
 
 
 
But, since my previous engine out almost 5 years pr= evious had been fuel related and the engine was sputtering in a similar man= ner - my diagnostic side of the brain got locked in to searching  = ;for a fuel problem (again) - but even switching tanks did no good - becaus= e, this time the "fuel problem" was a decreasing electrical power.  Th= is incident clearly pointed out the need for an emergency check list that i= nvolved checking both fuel AND electrical systems.  Coming up with one= in your head with the engine sputtering is not recommended {:>)<= /DIV>
 
Contributing factors were two early design decision= s that on hindsight revealed shortcomings.  
 
One was an electrical system design that permitted = my voltmeter to keep showing me the 13.8 volts being generated by the alter= nator while the battery voltage was steadly d= ecreasing.  Yes, I had a low-voltage light right in front of my eyes -= but, it was wired into the alternator powered circuit - so never showed lo= w voltage because the alternator voltage was fine - up to the point the rel= ay released.
 
   Now,  had  it occurred = to me I might have an electrical problem - and switched the volt meter to t= he battery (instead of alternator) AND had thought to observe it, I would h= ave seen the battery voltage decreasing and that MIGHT have got me looking = for an electrical problem rather than a fuel problem.  But, when you g= et your head locked into one focus - and you truly have mental blinders on,= NOT GOOD!
 
The second design deficiency was that  the rel= ay holding the alternator On-Line was provided current solely  by the = battery - so guess what happened when the battery juice got too low to hold= the alternator on-line?  Right "CLACK!!!!!"  followed immediatel= y by all lights, radios, LEDS, panel going da= rk.  It gets even lonelier when the lights go out.  Had I two bat= teries - all of this would have happened further from my emergency airport = in Salem, Al.
 
No, I have not added the second battery back in aft= er the incident  - because in my particular case, the incident had not= hing to do with one battery vs two battery  - it was a case of a mis-positioned switch which the pilot never recogn= ized was the cause - until later on the ground, cleaning off the seat cushi= on.  The corrective action was to put a switch guard over that particu= lar switch so it could NOT be accidently togg= led incorrectly AND rewire my relay so that a dead battery would no lo= nger prevent my system from using the power of a perfectly good alternator.=
 
But, this is just my perspective - provided for any= one to glean what they wish from it - if that is two batteries, two alterna= tors or what have you, then as always in this hobby, that is up to individu= al choice. 
 
 Just don't make the same dumb mistakes I m= ade, we know how those turned out - advance the state of the art and m= ake NEW mistakes {:>)
 
Oh, yes, the switch I accide= ntly activated (I think I probably hit it with my foot getting out o= f the aircraft at the previous refueling stop) was one that enabled me to d= etach my battery from the alternator.  The thought at design time was = that if my alternator ran-away with high voltage, I could isolate the batte= ry from the alternator thereby preventing the battery from overheating/boil= ing and get to an emergency landing on battery power alone.  Seemed li= ke a good idea at the time.
 
Ed
 
Edward L. Anderson
Anderson Electronic Enterpris= es LLC
305 Reefton<= /SPAN> Road
Weddington, NC 28104
http://www.= andersonee.com
http://www.eicommander.com

From: Tom Walter
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 12:35 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Batteries

Joe,

Which Bob Knuckles system?  Z19?

I realize Ed is happy with one battery, but I like two batteries= .  The THUNK of relays all popping open and the realizati= on of "I turned off the alternator, and voltage dropped way to= o low.... followed with LAND NOW!" would have convinced Ed to = have put the second battery back in! It sure got my attention on why two ba= tteries is a good thing!(Great Story, but I'll let Ed tell it!= )

So two batteries, and a BIG RED LIGHT with "low voltage" will go= on my panel.

I did the spread sheet with 17AH batterie= s and flying time. Add in Night, and no place to easily land..= .. two batties seem like a good trade off.&nb= sp; My biggest shock was the FORD style contactor needed 1Amp draw to remain closed.  Shutting down no= n essential, but leaving contactors, PDF, ECU and coils....   Syste= m draw is around 15 Amps. 17AH implies you'd have an hour, but= at 15Amp draw... more like 30-40 minutes, hence two batteries= as 1 hour flying time makes finding a landing strip a little easier. =

Tom

From: Ed Anderson <eand= erson@carolina.rr.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
<= SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 1= 1:20 AM
Subject: [FlyRot= ary] Re: Batteries

Joe, I started out using two Concord 25AH = RGB each weighing 22 lbs for a total of over = 44 lbs of battery (some joked I could get home by using the start to crank = the prop {:>)) !  I then transition to two Odyssey PC-680 17AH batt= eries each weighing 14 lbs for a total of 28 lbs.  Then after 6 years of fl= ying with two batteries and never using the second one - except to help cra= nk on a cold morning, I removed one of them.  Have now been flying for= over 4-5 years with one Odyssey 14lbs.  I swap it out every two years= .

Ed

--------------------------------------------------
Fr= om: <jskmberki@windstream.= net>
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 11:59 AM
To: "Rotary motors= in aircraft" <flyrota= ry@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Batteries

> = What size an type of batteries are required for the rotary?  I am lean= ing toward using 2 batteries and use Bob Nuckols system.  Thanks for any help.
>
> Joe Berki
> Limo EZ
> > --
> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
> Archive a= nd UnSub: http://= mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html


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