X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-ew0-f52.google.com ([209.85.215.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.1) with ESMTPS id 5100587 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 22:30:58 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.215.52; envelope-from=andrew@martinag.com.au Received: by ewy28 with SMTP id 28so1970573ewy.25 for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 19:30:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.19.134 with SMTP id a6mr864803ebb.138.1314066620975; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 19:30:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.213.4.65 with HTTP; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 19:30:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [203.42.105.31] In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 10:30:20 +0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: One Battery - Two Battery was [FlyRotary] Re: Batteries From: Andrew Martin To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd1e754278bdc04ab22faca --000e0cd1e754278bdc04ab22faca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Do you reckon that the proposed laser ignition in the 16X will have SAG issues? Andrew On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 9:37 AM, Ed Anderson wrote: > ** > Yes, Kelly, back a few years ago, I did look into them. The models I looked > at had some strange characteristics that I didn't fully understand (and > didn't take the time to), so I passed. Besides in my case 3 volts would > taken me a bit closer to the airport before the relay let loose, but would > have done nothing to provide a solution for my problem - head up and locked > {:>). > > I'm still waiting for the 16X before I start anything major new on my > aircraft - hope won't have to wait too much longer. > > Ed > > > > *From:* Kelly Troyer > *Sent:* Monday, August 22, 2011 8:48 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] One Battery - Two Battery was [FlyRotary] Re: > Batteries > > Ed, > Have you ever considered "Solid State Relays" for > contactors..........The DC versions will operate > at down to 3 volts and draw a lot less amperage than the electro mechanical > versions........... > > Kelly Troyer > *"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)* > "13B ROTARY"_ Engine > "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 > "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold > "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo > > *From:* Ed Anderson > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Monday, August 22, 2011 4:12 PM > > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: One Battery - Two Battery was [FlyRotary] Re: > Batteries > > Yes, I have also found my GPS can get confused - especially in the inner > city (where you need it the most). So can my brain when tired and/or under > pressure - the old brain can do some not so funny things. > > I left out one important fact about why the switch in the wrong position > caused the engine out landing. > > When I had designed that switch in to disengage the battery from the > alternator (in case of an over voltage condition), the switch not only > removed the battery from the alternator line - but also all my critical > systems (fuel, ignition) which were "smartly" tied to my battery bus. So > even though the alternator was putting out plenty of power - even if the > battery had been stone, cold dead, it could have powered all of those power > hungry devices. But having all of that on the battery bus and the battery > bus disconnected from alternator - that pulled that battery down even > quicker. > > So the fact that it last 45 minutes including cranking drain for engine > start says a lot about the Odyssey PC 680. > > > > *From:* Tom Walter > *Sent:* Monday, August 22, 2011 2:44 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: One Battery - Two Battery was [FlyRotary] Re: > Batteries > > Ed, > > Thanks. I remembered you discussing it, but now it makes sense why you > didn't see the low voltage warning from the battery. > > I know that 'fixation' issue, all to well. On business I'm always running > between meetings in new cities, and got to the point where I really loved (& > blindly trusted) my Garmin GPS. Well in Phoenix there was an "W.Shangri-La > **** Rd" vs "E. Shangri-La Rd". Van full of hungry people wanting dinner, > and I kept following the GPS... despite a passenger in the back telling me I > was taking the wrong route. I just figured the GPS was smarter as it rcd > traffic information, and would get us there faster! Had I thought to look > at a map, or listened the my passenger, but with a load of people, 5pm > traffic, and overload after a day in the sun.... my brain wasn't working. > Live and learn! > > Tom > > *From:* Ed Anderson > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Monday, August 22, 2011 12:27 PM > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] One Battery - Two Battery was [FlyRotary] Re: > Batteries > > Actually, Tom, in that particular incident - a second battery would have > only enabled me to fly too far away from the only safe airport to make a > return and dead stick into. *IF *I had realized the root cause (a switch > accidently put in the wrong position) then one battery would have worked > just as well as two {:>). > > Having said that, I certainly would not try to get anyone to change their > mind about using two batteries. . Some folks would not feel comfortable even > with two batteries - but, would add a second alternator, etc. So, you have > to think through your scenarios, the risk involved and your personal risk > tolerance. Yes, Bob now has several good electrical designs - for just > about any kind of power system you could come up with. Back in 1992, I had > never heard of Aeroelectric or Bob. > > > > But, since my previous engine out almost 5 years previous had been fuel > related and the engine was sputtering in a similar manner - my diagnostic > side of the brain got locked in to searching for a fuel problem (again) - > but even switching tanks did no good - because, this time the "fuel problem" > was a decreasing electrical power. This incident clearly pointed out the > need for an emergency check list that involved checking both fuel AND > electrical systems. Coming up with one in your head with the engine > sputtering is not recommended {:>) > > Contributing factors were two early design decisions that on hindsight > revealed shortcomings. > > One was an electrical system design that permitted my voltmeter to keep > showing me the 13.8 volts being generated by the alternator while the > battery voltage was steadly decreasing. Yes, I had a low-voltage light > right in front of my eyes - but, it was wired into the alternator powered > circuit - so never showed low voltage because the alternator voltage was > fine - up to the point the relay released. > > Now, had it occurred to me I might have an electrical problem - and > switched the volt meter to the battery (instead of alternator) AND had > thought to observe it, I would have seen the battery voltage decreasing and > that MIGHT have got me looking for an electrical problem rather than a fuel > problem. But, when you get your head locked into one focus - and you truly > have mental blinders on, NOT GOOD! > > The second design deficiency was that the relay holding the alternator > On-Line was provided current solely by the battery - so guess what happened > when the battery juice got too low to hold the alternator on-line? Right > "CLACK!!!!!" followed immediately by all lights, radios, LEDS, panel going > dark. It gets even lonelier when the lights go out. Had I two batteries - > all of this would have happened further from my emergency airport in Salem, > Al. > > No, I have not added the second battery back in after the incident - > because in my particular case, the incident had nothing to do with one > battery vs two battery - it was a case of a mis-positioned switch which the > pilot never recognized was the cause - until later on the ground, cleaning > off the seat cushion. The corrective action was to put a switch guard over > that particular switch so it could NOT be accidently toggled incorrectly AND > rewire my relay so that a dead battery would no longer prevent my system > from using the power of a perfectly good alternator. > > But, this is just my perspective - provided for anyone to glean what they > wish from it - if that is two batteries, two alternators or what have you, > then as always in this hobby, that is up to individual choice. > > *Just don't make the same dumb mistakes I made, we know how those turned > out - advance the state of the art and make NEW mistakes {:>)* > ** > Oh, yes, the switch I accidently activated (I think I probably hit it with > my foot getting out of the aircraft at the previous refueling stop) was one > that enabled me to detach my battery from the alternator. The thought at > design time was that if my alternator ran-away with high voltage, I could > isolate the battery from the alternator thereby preventing the battery from > overheating/boiling and get to an emergency landing on battery power alone. > Seemed like a good idea at the time. > > Ed > > Edward L. Anderson > Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC > 305 Reefton Road > Weddington, NC 28104 > http://www.andersonee.com > http://www.eicommander.com > > *From:* Tom Walter > *Sent:* Monday, August 22, 2011 12:35 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Batteries > > Joe, > > Which Bob Knuckles system? Z19? > > I realize Ed is happy with one battery, but I like two batteries. TheTHUNK of relays all popping open and the realization of "I turned off the > alternator, and voltage dropped way too low.... followed with LAND NOW!" > would have convinced Ed to have put the second battery back in! It sure > got my attention on why two batteries is a good thing!(Great Story, but > I'll let Ed tell it!) > > So two batteries, and a BIG RED LIGHT with "low voltage" will go on my > panel. > > I did the spread sheet with 17AH batteries and flying time. Add in Night, > and no place to easily land.... two batties seem like a good trade off. > My biggest shock was the FORD style contactor needed 1Amp draw to remain > closed. Shutting down non essential, but leaving contactors, PDF, ECU and > coils.... System draw is around 15 Amps. 17AH implies you'd have an > hour, but at 15Amp draw... more like 30-40 minutes, hence two batteries as > 1 hour flying time makes finding a landing strip a little easier. > > Tom > > *From:* Ed Anderson > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Monday, August 22, 2011 11:20 AM > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Batteries > > Joe, I started out using two Concord 25AH RGB each weighing 22 lbs for a > total of over 44 lbs of battery (some joked I could get home by using the > start to crank the prop {:>)) ! I then transition to two Odyssey PC-680 > 17AH batteries each weighing 14 lbs for a total of 28 lbs. Then after 6 > years of flying with two batteries and never using the second one - except > to help crank on a cold morning, I removed one of them. Have now been > flying for over 4-5 years with one Odyssey 14lbs. I swap it out every two > years. > > Ed > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: > Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 11:59 AM > To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" > Subject: [FlyRotary] Batteries > > > What size an type of batteries are required for the rotary? I am leaning > toward using 2 batteries and use Bob Nuckols system. Thanks for any help. > > > > Joe Berki > > Limo EZ > > > > -- > > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > > > > > > -- Regards Andrew Martin Martin Ag 275 Newmarracarra Rd Moonyoonooka WA 6532 0427477144 08 99241145 andrew@martinag.com.au --000e0cd1e754278bdc04ab22faca Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Do you reckon that the proposed laser ignition in the 16X will have SAG iss= ues?

Andrew

On Tue, Au= g 23, 2011 at 9:37 AM, Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com> wrote:<= br>
Yes, Kelly, back a few years ago, I did look into= them.=20 The models I looked at had some strange characteristics that I didn't f= ully=20 understand (and didn't take the time to), so I passed.=A0 Besides in my= case=20 3 volts would taken me a bit closer to the airport before the relay let loo= se,=20 but would have done nothing to provide a solution for my problem - head up = and=20 locked {:>).
=A0
I'm still waiting for the 16X before I start = anything=20 major new on my aircraft=A0 - hope won't have to wait too much=20 longer.
=A0
Ed
=A0
=A0

Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 8:48 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] One Battery - Two Battery was [FlyRo= tary] Re:=20 Batteries

Ed,
=A0 Have you ever=20 considered "Solid State Relays" for=A0 contactors..........The DC= versions=20 will operate
at down to 3 volts and draw a=20 lot less=A0amperage than the electro mechanical versions...........=A0
=A0
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" = (Eventually)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
&quo= t;MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil=20 Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

From: Ed Anderson=20 <eanderso= n@carolina.rr.com>
To:= Rotary motors in aircraft=20 <flyrot= ary@lancaironline.net>
= Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 4:12=20 PM

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One=20 Battery - Two Battery was [FlyRotary] Re: Batteries
<= div>

Yes, I have also found my GPS can get confused -= =20 especially in the inner city (where you need it the most).=A0 So can my bra= in=20 when tired and/or under=A0 pressure - the old brain can do some not so funn= y=20 things.
=A0
I left out one important fact about why the switc= h in the=20 wrong position caused the engine out landing.=A0
=A0
When I had designed that switch in to disengage t= he=20 battery from the alternator (in case of an over voltage condition), the swi= tch=20 not only removed the battery from the alternator line - but also all my cri= tical=20 systems (fuel, ignition) which were "smartly" tied to my battery = bus.=A0 So=20 even though the alternator was putting out plenty of power - even if the ba= ttery=20 had been stone, cold dead, it could have powered all of=A0those power hungr= y=20 devices.=A0 But having all of that on the battery bus and the battery bus= =20 disconnected from alternator - that pulled that battery down even=20 quicker.=A0
=A0
So the fact that it last 45 minutes including cra= nking=20 drain for engine start says a lot about the Odyssey PC 680.
=A0
=A0

From: Tom Walter
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 2:44 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One Battery - Two Battery was [FlyRota= ry]=20 Re: Batteries

Ed,

Thanks.=A0 I remembered you discussing it, but = now it=20 makes sense why you didn't see the low voltage warning from the=20 battery.

I know that 'fixation' issue, all to well.=A0= =A0 On=20 business I'm always running between meetings in new cities, and got to = the point=20 where I really loved (& blindly trusted) my Garmin GPS.=A0 Well in=20 Phoenix there was an "W.Shangri-La Rd" vs "E.=A0 Shang= ri-La Rd". Van full of hungry people wanting dinner, and = I=20 kept following the GPS... despite a passenger in the back telling me I was= =20 taking the wrong route.=A0 I just figured the GPS was smarter as it rcd=20 traffic information, and would get us there faster!=A0 Had I thought to loo= k=20 at a map, or listened the my passenger, but with a load of people, 5pm traf= fic,=20 and overload after a day in the sun.... my brain wasn't working.=A0 Liv= e and=20 learn!=A0

Tom

From: Ed Anderson=20 <eanderso= n@carolina.rr.com>
To:= Rotary motors in aircraft=20 <flyrot= ary@lancaironline.net>
Sent:<= /span> Monday, August 22, 2011 12:27=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] O= ne=20 Battery - Two Battery was [FlyRotary] Re: Batteries

Actually, Tom, =A0in that particular incident - a= =20 second battery would have only=A0enabled me to fly too far away from the on= ly=20 safe airport to make a return and dead stick into.=A0 IF I had=20 realized the root cause (a switch accidently put in the wrong position) the= n one=20 battery would have worked just as well as two {:>).=A0
=A0
Having said that, I certainly would not try to ge= t anyone=20 to change their mind about using two batteries.=A0.=A0Some folks would not= =20 feel comfortable even with two batteries - but, would add a second alternat= or,=20 etc.=A0 So,=A0you have to think through your scenarios, the risk involved= =20 and your personal risk tolerance.=A0 Yes, Bob now has several good electric= al=20 designs - for just about any kind of power system you could come up with.= =A0=20 Back in 1992, I had never heard of Aeroelectric or Bob.
=A0
=A0
=A0
But, since my previous engine out almost 5 years = previous=20 had been fuel related and the engine was sputtering in a similar manner - m= y=20 diagnostic side of the brain got locked in to=A0searching =A0for a fuel=20 problem (again) - but even switching tanks did no good - because, this time= the=20 "fuel problem" was a decreasing electrical power.=A0 This inciden= t clearly=20 pointed out the need for an emergency check list that involved checking bot= h=20 fuel AND electrical systems.=A0 Coming up with one in your head with the=20 engine sputtering is not recommended {:>)
=A0
Contributing factors were two early design decisi= ons that=20 on hindsight revealed shortcomings.=A0=A0
=A0
One was an electrical system design that permitte= d my=20 voltmeter to keep showing me the 13.8 volts being generated by the alternat= or=20 while the battery voltage was steadly decreasing.=A0 Yes, I had a low-volta= ge=20 light right in front of my eyes - but, it was wired into the alternator pow= ered=20 circuit - so never showed low voltage because the alternator voltage was fi= ne -=20 up to the point the relay released.
=A0
=A0=A0 Now,=A0=A0had=A0 it occurred to me I=20 might have an electrical problem - and switched the volt meter to the batte= ry=20 (instead of alternator) AND had thought to observe it, I would have seen th= e=20 battery voltage decreasing and that MIGHT have got me looking for an electr= ical=20 problem rather than a fuel problem.=A0 But, when you get your head locked= =20 into one focus - and you truly have mental blinders on, NOT GOOD!
=A0
The second design deficiency was that =A0the rela= y=20 holding the alternator On-Line was provided current solely =A0by the batter= y=20 - so guess what happened when the battery juice got too low to hold the=20 alternator on-line?=A0 Right "CLACK!!!!!"=A0 followed immediately= by all=20 lights, radios, LEDS, panel going dark.=A0 It gets even lonelier when the= =20 lights go out.=A0 Had I two batteries - all of this would have happened=20 further from my emergency airport in Salem, Al.
=A0
No, I have not added the second battery back in a= fter the=20 incident =A0- because in my particular case, the incident had nothing to do= =20 with one battery vs two battery=A0 - it was a case of a mis-positioned swit= ch=20 which the pilot never recognized was the cause - until later on the ground,= =20 cleaning off the seat cushion.=A0 The corrective action was to put a switch= =20 guard over that particular switch so it could NOT be accidently toggled=20 incorrectly=A0AND rewire my relay so that a dead battery would no longer=20 prevent my system from using the power of a perfectly good=20 alternator.
=A0
But, this is just my perspective - provided for a= nyone to=20 glean what they wish from it - if that is two batteries, two alternators or= what=20 have you, then as always in this hobby, that is up to individual=20 choice.=A0
=A0
=A0Just don't make the same dumb mistakes = I made, we=20 know how those turned out=A0- advance the state of the art and make NEW=20 mistakes {:>)
=A0
Oh, yes, the switch I accidently activated (I thi= nk I=20 probably hit it with my foot getting out of the aircraft at the previous=20 refueling stop) was one that enabled me to detach my battery from the=20 alternator.=A0 The thought at design time was that if my alternator ran-awa= y=20 with high voltage, I could isolate the battery from the alternator thereby= =20 preventing the battery from overheating/boiling and get to an emergency lan= ding=20 on battery power alone.=A0 Seemed like a good idea at the time.
=A0
Ed
=A0
Edward L. Anderson
Anderson Electronic Enterpr= ises=20 LLC
305 Reefton Road
Weddington, NC 28104
http://www.andersonee.com=
http://www.eicommander.com

From: Tom Walter
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 12:35 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Batteries

Joe,

Which Bob Knuckles system?=A0 Z19?

I realize Ed is happy with one battery, but I like two=20 batteries.=A0 The THUNK of relays all popping open and the=20 realization of "I turned off the alternator, and voltage = dropped=20 way too low.... followed with LAND NOW!" would have convinced Ed to=20 have put the second battery back in! It sure got my attention on why two=20 batteries is a good thing!(Great Story, but I'll let Ed te= ll=20 it!)

So two batteries, and a BIG RED LIGHT with "low voltage&quo= t; will go on=20 my panel.

I did the spread sheet with 17AH batterie= s and=20 flying time. Add in Night, and no place to easily land.... two= =20 batties seem like a good trade off.=A0 My biggest shock was th= e=20 FORD style contactor needed 1Amp draw to remain closed.=A0 Shutting down=20 non essential, but leaving contactors, PDF, ECU and=20 coils....=A0=A0 System draw is around 15 Amps. 17AH implies=20 you'd have an hour, but at 15Amp draw... more like 30-40 minutes, hence= two=20 batteries as 1 hour flying time makes finding a landing strip = a=20 little easier.=A0

Tom

From: Ed Anderson=20 <eanderso= n@carolina.rr.com>
To:= Rotary motors in aircraft=20 <flyrot= ary@lancaironline.net>
Sent:<= /span> Monday, August 22, 2011 11:20=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] R= e:=20 Batteries

Joe, I started out using two Concord 25AH RGB each= =20 weighing 22 lbs for a total of over 44 lbs of battery (some joked I could g= et=20 home by using the start to crank the prop {:>)) !=A0 I then transition t= o=20 two Odyssey PC-680 17AH batteries each weighing 14 lbs for a total of 28=20 lbs.=A0 Then after 6 years of flying with two batteries and never using the= =20 second one - except to help crank on a cold morning, I removed one of=20 them.=A0 Have now been flying for over 4-5 years with one Odyssey=20 14lbs.=A0 I swap it out every two=20 years.

Ed

--------------------------------------------------<= br>From:=20 <jskmberki@windstream.net>
Sent:=20 Monday, August 22, 2011 11:59 AM
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft&quo= t; <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Batteries

> What size an type of batteries are requir= ed=20 for the rotary?=A0 I am leaning toward using 2 batteries and use Bob Nuckol= s=20 system.=A0 Thanks for any help.
>
> Joe Berki
> Limo=20 EZ
>
> --
> Homepage:=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/
= > Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancairo= nline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html=20


--
Homepage:=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and= =20 UnSub:=A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/l= ists/flyrotary/List.html









--
Regards
<= br>Andrew Martin
Martin Ag
275 Newmarracarra Rd
Moonyoonooka WA 65= 32

0427477144
08 99241145
andrew@martinag.com.au
--000e0cd1e754278bdc04ab22faca--