X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nm23-vm0.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.44.180] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.1) with SMTP id 5100483 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 20:49:13 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.44.180; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: from [98.139.44.96] by nm23.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Aug 2011 00:48:39 -0000 Received: from [98.139.44.85] by tm1.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Aug 2011 00:48:39 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1022.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Aug 2011 00:48:39 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 867976.51849.bm@omp1022.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 45517 invoked by uid 60001); 23 Aug 2011 00:48:39 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1314060519; bh=1uOImI0IP3exjSfiPFmjzslc/gQ4cfqVuU5pktk937s=; 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Mon, 22 Aug 2011 17:48:39 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.113.313619 References: Message-ID: <1314060519.39146.YahooMailNeo@web83904.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 17:48:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Kelly Troyer Reply-To: Kelly Troyer Subject: One Battery - Two Battery was [FlyRotary] Re: Batteries To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1359337543-1314060519=:39146" --0-1359337543-1314060519=:39146 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ed,=0A=A0 Have you ever considered "Solid State Relays" for=A0 contactors..= ........The DC versions will operate =0Aat down to 3 volts and draw a lot l= ess=A0amperage than the electro mechanical versions...........=A0=0A=0AKell= y Troyer=0A"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A"RWS"_RD1= C/EC2/EM2=0A"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo= =0A=0AFrom: Ed Anderson =0ATo: Rotary motors in = aircraft =0ASent: Monday, August 22, 2011 4:12= PM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: One Battery - Two Battery was [FlyRotary] Re= : Batteries=0A=0A=0AYes, I have also found my GPS can get confused - especi= ally in the inner city (where you need it the most).=A0 So can my brain whe= n tired and/or under=A0 pressure - the old brain can do some not so funny t= hings.=0A=A0=0AI left out one important fact about why the switch in the wr= ong position caused the engine out landing.=A0 =0A=A0=0AWhen I had designed= that switch in to disengage the battery from the alternator (in case of an= over voltage condition), the switch not only removed the battery from the = alternator line - but also all my critical systems (fuel, ignition) which w= ere "smartly" tied to my battery bus.=A0 So even though the alternator was = putting out plenty of power - even if the battery had been stone, cold dead= , it could have powered all of=A0those power hungry devices.=A0 But having = all of that on the battery bus and the battery bus disconnected from altern= ator - that pulled that battery down even quicker.=A0=0A=A0=0ASo the fact t= hat it last 45 minutes including cranking drain for engine start says a lot= about the Odyssey PC 680.=0A=A0=0A=A0=0A=0A=0AFrom: Tom Walter =0ASent: Mo= nday, August 22, 2011 2:44 PM=0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft =0ASubject: [= FlyRotary] Re: One Battery - Two Battery was [FlyRotary] Re: Batteries=0A= =0AEd,=0A=0AThanks.=A0 I remembered you discussing it, but now it makes sen= se why you didn't see the low voltage warning from the battery.=0A=0AI know= that 'fixation' issue, all to well.=A0=A0 On business I'm always running b= etween meetings in new cities, and got to the point where I really loved (&= blindly trusted) my Garmin GPS.=A0 Well in Phoenix there was an "W.Shangri= -LaRd" vs "E.=A0 Shangri-La Rd". Van full of hungry people wanting dinner, = and I kept following the GPS... despite a passenger in the back telling me = I was taking the wrong route.=A0 I just figured the GPS was smarter as it r= cd traffic information, and would get us there faster!=A0 Had I thought to = look at a map, or listened the my passenger, but with a load of people, 5pm= traffic, and overload after a day in the sun.... my brain wasn't working.= =A0 Live and learn!=A0=0A=0ATom=0A=0A=0AFrom: Ed Anderson =0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A= Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 12:27 PM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] One Battery -= Two Battery was [FlyRotary] Re: Batteries=0A=0A=0AActually, Tom, =A0in tha= t particular incident - a second battery would have only=A0enabled me to fl= y too far away from the only safe airport to make a return and dead stick i= nto.=A0 IF I had realized the root cause (a switch accidently put in the wr= ong position) then one battery would have worked just as well as two {:>).= =A0 =0A=A0=0AHaving said that, I certainly would not try to get anyone to c= hange their mind about using two batteries.=A0.=A0Some folks would not feel= comfortable even with two batteries - but, would add a second alternator, = etc.=A0 So,=A0you have to think through your scenarios, the risk involved a= nd your personal risk tolerance.=A0 Yes, Bob now has several good electrica= l designs - for just about any kind of power system you could come up with.= =A0 Back in 1992, I had never heard of Aeroelectric or Bob.=0A=A0=0A=A0=0A= =A0=0ABut, since my previous engine out almost 5 years previous had been fu= el related and the engine was sputtering in a similar manner - my diagnosti= c side of the brain got locked in to=A0searching =A0for a fuel problem (aga= in) - but even switching tanks did no good - because, this time the "fuel p= roblem" was a decreasing electrical power.=A0 This incident clearly pointed= out the need for an emergency check list that involved checking both fuel = AND electrical systems.=A0 Coming up with one in your head with the engine = sputtering is not recommended {:>)=0A=A0=0AContributing factors were two ea= rly design decisions that on hindsight revealed shortcomings.=A0=A0=0A=A0= =0AOne was an electrical system design that permitted my voltmeter to keep = showing me the 13.8 volts being generated by the alternator while the batte= ry voltage was steadly decreasing.=A0 Yes, I had a low-voltage light right = in front of my eyes - but, it was wired into the alternator powered circuit= - so never showed low voltage because the alternator voltage was fine - up= to the point the relay released.=0A=A0=0A=A0=A0 Now,=A0=A0had=A0 it occurr= ed to me I might have an electrical problem - and switched the volt meter t= o the battery (instead of alternator) AND had thought to observe it, I woul= d have seen the battery voltage decreasing and that MIGHT have got me looki= ng for an electrical problem rather than a fuel problem.=A0 But, when you g= et your head locked into one focus - and you truly have mental blinders on,= NOT GOOD!=0A=A0=0AThe second design deficiency was that =A0the relay holdi= ng the alternator On-Line was provided current solely =A0by the battery - s= o guess what happened when the battery juice got too low to hold the altern= ator on-line?=A0 Right "CLACK!!!!!"=A0 followed immediately by all lights, = radios, LEDS, panel going dark.=A0 It gets even lonelier when the lights go= out.=A0 Had I two batteries - all of this would have happened further from= my emergency airport in Salem, Al.=0A=A0=0ANo, I have not added the second= battery back in after the incident =A0- because in my particular case, the= incident had nothing to do with one battery vs two battery=A0 - it was a c= ase of a mis-positioned switch which the pilot never recognized was the cau= se - until later on the ground, cleaning off the seat cushion.=A0 The corre= ctive action was to put a switch guard over that particular switch so it co= uld NOT be accidently toggled incorrectly=A0AND rewire my relay so that a d= ead battery would no longer prevent my system from using the power of a per= fectly good alternator.=0A=A0=0ABut, this is just my perspective - provided= for anyone to glean what they wish from it - if that is two batteries, two= alternators or what have you, then as always in this hobby, that is up to = individual choice.=A0=0A=A0=0A=A0Just don't make the same dumb mistakes I m= ade, we know how those turned out=A0- advance the state of the art and make= NEW mistakes {:>)=0A=A0=0AOh, yes, the switch I accidently activated (I th= ink I probably hit it with my foot getting out of the aircraft at the previ= ous refueling stop) was one that enabled me to detach my battery from the a= lternator.=A0 The thought at design time was that if my alternator ran-away= with high voltage, I could isolate the battery from the alternator thereby= preventing the battery from overheating/boiling and get to an emergency la= nding on battery power alone.=A0 Seemed like a good idea at the time.=0A=A0= =0AEd=0A=A0=0AEdward L. Anderson=0AAnderson Electronic Enterprises LLC=0A30= 5 Reefton Road=0AWeddington, NC 28104=0Ahttp://www.andersonee.com=0Ahttp://= www.eicommander.com=0A=0A=0A=0AFrom: Tom Walter =0ASent: Monday, August 22,= 2011 12:35 PM=0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft =0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Batteries=0A=0AJoe,=0A=0AWhich Bob Knuckles system?=A0 Z19?=0A=0AI realize = Ed is happy with one battery, but I like two batteries.=A0 TheTHUNK of rela= ys all popping open and the realization of "I turned off the alternator,and= voltage dropped way too low.... followed with LAND NOW!" would have convin= ced Ed tohave put the second battery back in! It sure got my attention on w= hy two batteries is a good thing!(Great Story, but I'll let Ed tell it!)=0A= =0A=0ASo two batteries, and a BIG RED LIGHT with "low voltage" will go on m= y panel.=0AI did the spread sheet with 17AH batteries and flying time. Add = in Night, and noplace to easily land.... two batties seem like a good trade= off.=A0 My biggest shockwas the FORD style contactor needed 1Amp draw to r= emain closed.=A0 Shutting down nonessential, but leaving contactors, PDF, E= CU and coils....=A0=A0 System draw is around 15 Amps. 17AHimplies you'd hav= e an hour, but at 15Amp draw... more like 30-40 minutes, hence two batterie= sas 1 hour flying time makes finding a landing strip a little easier.=A0 = =0A=0ATom=0A=0A=0AFrom: Ed Anderson =0ATo: Rotar= y motors in aircraft =0ASent: Monday, August 2= 2, 2011 11:20 AM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: Batteries=0A=0AJoe, I started o= ut using two Concord 25AH RGB each weighing 22 lbs for a total of over 44 l= bs of battery (some joked I could get home by using the start to crank the = prop {:>)) !=A0 I then transition to two Odyssey PC-680 17AH batteries each= weighing 14 lbs for a total of 28 lbs.=A0 Then after 6 years of flying wit= h two batteries and never using the second one - except to help crank on a = cold morning, I removed one of them.=A0 Have now been flying for over 4-5 y= ears with one Odyssey 14lbs.=A0 I swap it out every two years.=0A=0AEd=0A= =0A--------------------------------------------------=0AFrom: =0ASent: Monday, August 22, 2011 11:59 AM=0ATo: "Rotary motors= in aircraft" =0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Batterie= s=0A=0A> What size an type of batteries are required for the rotary?=A0 I a= m leaning toward using 2 batteries and use Bob Nuckols system.=A0 Thanks fo= r any help.=0A> =0A> Joe Berki=0A> Limo EZ=0A> =0A> --=0A> Homepage:=A0 htt= p://www.flyrotary.com/=0A> Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net= :81/lists/flyrotary/List.html =0A=0A=0A--=0AHomepage:=A0 http://www.flyrota= ry.com/=0AArchive and UnSub:=A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyr= otary/List.html --0-1359337543-1314060519=:39146 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ed,
  Have you ever= considered "Solid State Relays" for  contactors..........The DC versi= ons will operate
at down to 3 volts a= nd draw a lot less amperage than the electro mechanical versions......= ..... 
 
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil = Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

From:= Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrota= ry@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 4:12 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One Battery - Two Battery was [FlyR= otary] Re: Batteries

Yes, I have also found my GPS can get confused - es= pecially in the inner city (where you need it the most).  So can my br= ain when tired and/or under  pressure - the old brain can do some not = so funny things.
 
I left out one important fact about why the switch = in the wrong position caused the engine out landing. 
 
When I had designed that switch in to disengage the= battery from the alternator (in case of an over voltage condition), the sw= itch not only removed the battery from the alternator line - but also all m= y critical systems (fuel, ignition) which were "smartly" tied to my battery= bus.  So even though the alternator was putting out plenty of power -= even if the battery had been stone, cold dead, it could have powered all o= f those power hungry devices.  But having all of that on the batt= ery bus and the battery bus disconnected from alternator - that pulled that= battery down even quicker. 
 
So the fact that it last 45 minutes including crank= ing drain for engine start says a lot about the Odyssey PC 680.
 
 

From: Tom Walter
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 2:44 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One Battery - Two Battery was [FlyRota= ry] Re: Batteries

Ed,

Thanks.  I remembered you discussing it, but= now it makes sense why you didn't see the low voltage warning from the bat= tery.

I know that 'fixation' issue, all to well.   = On business I'm always running between meetings in new cities, and got to t= he point where I really loved (& blindly trusted) my Garmin GPS.  = Well in Phoenix there was an "W.Shangri-La<= /I> Rd= " vs "E.  Shangri-La Rd". Van full= of hungry people wanting dinner, and I kept following the GPS... despite a= passenger in the back telling me I was taking the wrong route.  I jus= t figured the GPS was smarter as it rcd traffic information, and would get = us there faster!  Had I thought to look at a map, or listened the my p= assenger, but with a load of people, 5pm traffic, and overload after a day = in the sun.... my brain wasn't working.  Live and learn! <= /DIV>

Tom

From:= Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrota= ry@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 12:27 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] One Battery - Two Battery was [FlyRota= ry] Re: Batteries

Actually, Tom,  in that particular incident - = a second battery would have only enabled me to fly too far away from t= he only safe airport to make a return and dead stick into.  IF = I had realized the root cause (a switch accidently put in the wrong positio= n) then one battery would have worked just as well as two {:>). 
 
Having said that, I certainly would not try to get = anyone to change their mind about using two batteries. . Some fol= ks would not feel comfortable even with two batteries - but, would add a se= cond alternator, etc.  So, you have to think through your scenari= os, the risk involved and your personal risk tolerance.  Yes, Bob now = has several good electrical designs - for just about any kind of power syst= em you could come up with.  Back in 1992, I had never heard of Aeroele= ctric or Bob.
 
 
 
But, since my previous engine out almost 5 years pr= evious had been fuel related and the engine was sputtering in a similar man= ner - my diagnostic side of the brain got locked in to searching  = ;for a fuel problem (again) - but even switching tanks did no good - becaus= e, this time the "fuel problem" was a decreasing electrical power.  Th= is incident clearly pointed out the need for an emergency check list that i= nvolved checking both fuel AND electrical systems.  Coming up with one= in your head with the engine sputtering is not recommended {:>)<= /DIV>
 
Contributing factors were two early design decision= s that on hindsight revealed shortcomings.  
 
One was an electrical system design that permitted = my voltmeter to keep showing me the 13.8 volts being generated by the alter= nator while the battery voltage was steadly decreasing.  Yes, I had a = low-voltage light right in front of my eyes - but, it was wired into the al= ternator powered circuit - so never showed low voltage because the alternat= or voltage was fine - up to the point the relay released.
 
   Now,  had  it occurred = to me I might have an electrical problem - and switched the volt meter to t= he battery (instead of alternator) AND had thought to observe it, I would h= ave seen the battery voltage decreasing and that MIGHT have got me looking = for an electrical problem rather than a fuel problem.  But, when you g= et your head locked into one focus - and you truly have mental blinders on,= NOT GOOD!
 
The second design deficiency was that  the rel= ay holding the alternator On-Line was provided current solely  by the = battery - so guess what happened when the battery juice got too low to hold= the alternator on-line?  Right "CLACK!!!!!"  followed immediatel= y by all lights, radios, LEDS, panel going dark.  It gets even lonelie= r when the lights go out.  Had I two batteries - all of this would hav= e happened further from my emergency airport in Salem, Al.
 
No, I have not added the second battery back in aft= er the incident  - because in my particular case, the incident had not= hing to do with one battery vs two battery  - it was a case of a mis-p= ositioned switch which the pilot never recognized was the cause - until lat= er on the ground, cleaning off the seat cushion.  The corrective actio= n was to put a switch guard over that particular switch so it could NOT be = accidently toggled incorrectly AND rewire my relay so that a dead batt= ery would no longer prevent my system from using the power of a perfectly g= ood alternator.
 
But, this is just my perspective - provided for any= one to glean what they wish from it - if that is two batteries, two alterna= tors or what have you, then as always in this hobby, that is up to individu= al choice. 
 
 Just don't make the same dumb mistakes I m= ade, we know how those turned out - advance the state of the art and m= ake NEW mistakes {:>)
 
Oh, yes, the switch I accidently activated (I think= I probably hit it with my foot getting out of the aircraft at the previous= refueling stop) was one that enabled me to detach my battery from the alte= rnator.  The thought at design time was that if my alternator ran-away= with high voltage, I could isolate the battery from the alternator thereby= preventing the battery from overheating/boiling and get to an emergency la= nding on battery power alone.  Seemed like a good idea at the time.
 
Ed
 
Edward L. Anderson
Anderson Electronic Enterpris= es LLC
305 Reefton Road
Weddington, NC 28104
http://www.andersonee.com<= /A>
http://www.eicommander.com

From: Tom Walter
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 12:35 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Batteries

Joe,

Which Bob Knuckles system?  Z19?

I realize Ed is happy with one battery, but I like two batteries= .  The THUNK of relays all popping open and the realizati= on of "I turned off the alternator, and voltage dropped way to= o low.... followed with LAND NOW!" would have convinced Ed to = have put the second battery back in! It sure got my attention on why two ba= tteries is a good thing!(Great Story, but I'll let Ed tell it!= )

So two batteries, and a BIG RED LIGHT with "low voltage" will go= on my panel.

I did the spread sheet with 17AH batterie= s and flying time. Add in Night, and no place to easily land..= .. two batties seem like a good trade off.  My biggest shock was the FORD style contactor needed 1Amp draw to remain closed.  S= hutting down non essential, but leaving contactors, PDF, ECU a= nd coils....   System draw is around 15 Amps. 17AH i= mplies you'd have an hour, but at 15Amp draw... more like 30-40 minutes, he= nce two batteries as 1 hour flying time makes finding a landin= g strip a little easier. 

Tom

From:= Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrota= ry@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 11:20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Batteries

Joe, I sta= rted out using two Concord 25AH RGB each weighing 22 lbs for a total of ove= r 44 lbs of battery (some joked I could get home by using the start to cran= k the prop {:>)) !  I then transition to two Odyssey PC-680 17AH ba= tteries each weighing 14 lbs for a total of 28 lbs.  Then after 6 years of fl= ying with two batteries and never using the second one - except to help cra= nk on a cold morning, I removed one of them.  Have now been flying for= over 4-5 years with one Odyssey 14lbs.  I swap it out every two years= .

Ed

--------------------------------------------------
Fr= om: <jskmberki@windstream.= net>
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 11:59 AM
To: "Rotary motors= in aircraft" <flyrota= ry@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Batteries

> = What size an type of batteries are required for the rotary?  I am lean= ing toward using 2 batteries and use Bob Nuckols system.  Thanks for a= ny help.
>
> Joe Berki
> Limo EZ
>
> --
&g= t; Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
> Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/Lis= t.html


--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Arc= hive and UnSub:  http://mail.lancaironline= .net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html





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