X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.121] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.1) with ESMTP id 5100352 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 17:15:12 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.121; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Return-Path: X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=pLPlkKcK38cN4Cv4YkVeTGGRYpmKez/IrX640LVKWnc= c=1 sm=0 a=_u7wsBcv2koA:10 a=SC71y0a/4S6V9vjVxUojGA==:17 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=arxwEM4EAAAA:8 a=r1ClD_H3AAAA:8 a=o2QoyYduAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=PORD6beG0zfWjpi2x5MA:9 a=uXt5CWjNM_MJWUVLVFgA:7 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=TlnOPt13aEMA:10 a=CjxXgO3LAAAA:8 a=-wJZ2xC_jj4N3OPocEMA:9 a=44enBhtkpUhBohuq_E4A:7 a=tXsnliwV7b4A:10 a=rC2wZJ5BpNYA:10 a=SC71y0a/4S6V9vjVxUojGA==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 174.110.175.135 Received: from [174.110.175.135] ([174.110.175.135:50273] helo=EdPC) by cdptpa-oedge04.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id BB/E8-20202-EB6C25E4; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 21:14:38 +0000 Message-ID: <8691D628BE1248148A343E06B5A20E9A@EdPC> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: One Battery - Two Battery was [FlyRotary] Re: Batteries Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 17:12:53 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001B_01CC60EE.BA555820" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01CC60EE.BA555820 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, I have also found my GPS can get confused - especially in the inner = city (where you need it the most). So can my brain when tired and/or = under pressure - the old brain can do some not so funny things. I left out one important fact about why the switch in the wrong position = caused the engine out landing. =20 When I had designed that switch in to disengage the battery from the = alternator (in case of an over voltage condition), the switch not only = removed the battery from the alternator line - but also all my critical = systems (fuel, ignition) which were "smartly" tied to my battery bus. = So even though the alternator was putting out plenty of power - even if = the battery had been stone, cold dead, it could have powered all of = those power hungry devices. But having all of that on the battery bus = and the battery bus disconnected from alternator - that pulled that = battery down even quicker.=20 So the fact that it last 45 minutes including cranking drain for engine = start says a lot about the Odyssey PC 680. From: Tom Walter=20 Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 2:44 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One Battery - Two Battery was [FlyRotary] Re: = Batteries Ed, Thanks. I remembered you discussing it, but now it makes sense why you = didn't see the low voltage warning from the battery. I know that 'fixation' issue, all to well. On business I'm always = running between meetings in new cities, and got to the point where I = really loved (& blindly trusted) my Garmin GPS. Well in Phoenix there = was an "W.Shangri-La Rd" vs "E. Shangri-La Rd". Van full of hungry = people wanting dinner, and I kept following the GPS... despite a = passenger in the back telling me I was taking the wrong route. I just = figured the GPS was smarter as it rcd traffic information, and would get = us there faster! Had I thought to look at a map, or listened the my = passenger, but with a load of people, 5pm traffic, and overload after a = day in the sun.... my brain wasn't working. Live and learn!=20 Tom -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- From: Ed Anderson To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 12:27 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] One Battery - Two Battery was [FlyRotary] Re: = Batteries Actually, Tom, in that particular incident - a second battery would = have only enabled me to fly too far away from the only safe airport to = make a return and dead stick into. IF I had realized the root cause (a = switch accidently put in the wrong position) then one battery would have = worked just as well as two {:>). =20 Having said that, I certainly would not try to get anyone to change = their mind about using two batteries. . Some folks would not feel = comfortable even with two batteries - but, would add a second = alternator, etc. So, you have to think through your scenarios, the risk = involved and your personal risk tolerance. Yes, Bob now has several = good electrical designs - for just about any kind of power system you = could come up with. Back in 1992, I had never heard of Aeroelectric or = Bob. But, since my previous engine out almost 5 years previous had been fuel = related and the engine was sputtering in a similar manner - my = diagnostic side of the brain got locked in to searching for a fuel = problem (again) - but even switching tanks did no good - because, this = time the "fuel problem" was a decreasing electrical power. This = incident clearly pointed out the need for an emergency check list that = involved checking both fuel AND electrical systems. Coming up with one = in your head with the engine sputtering is not recommended {:>) Contributing factors were two early design decisions that on hindsight = revealed shortcomings. =20 One was an electrical system design that permitted my voltmeter to keep = showing me the 13.8 volts being generated by the alternator while the = battery voltage was steadly decreasing. Yes, I had a low-voltage light = right in front of my eyes - but, it was wired into the alternator = powered circuit - so never showed low voltage because the alternator = voltage was fine - up to the point the relay released. Now, had it occurred to me I might have an electrical problem - and = switched the volt meter to the battery (instead of alternator) AND had = thought to observe it, I would have seen the battery voltage decreasing = and that MIGHT have got me looking for an electrical problem rather than = a fuel problem. But, when you get your head locked into one focus - and = you truly have mental blinders on, NOT GOOD! The second design deficiency was that the relay holding the alternator = On-Line was provided current solely by the battery - so guess what = happened when the battery juice got too low to hold the alternator = on-line? Right "CLACK!!!!!" followed immediately by all lights, = radios, LEDS, panel going dark. It gets even lonelier when the lights = go out. Had I two batteries - all of this would have happened further = from my emergency airport in Salem, Al. No, I have not added the second battery back in after the incident - = because in my particular case, the incident had nothing to do with one = battery vs two battery - it was a case of a mis-positioned switch which = the pilot never recognized was the cause - until later on the ground, = cleaning off the seat cushion. The corrective action was to put a = switch guard over that particular switch so it could NOT be accidently = toggled incorrectly AND rewire my relay so that a dead battery would no = longer prevent my system from using the power of a perfectly good = alternator. But, this is just my perspective - provided for anyone to glean what = they wish from it - if that is two batteries, two alternators or what = have you, then as always in this hobby, that is up to individual choice. = Just don't make the same dumb mistakes I made, we know how those turned = out - advance the state of the art and make NEW mistakes {:>) Oh, yes, the switch I accidently activated (I think I probably hit it = with my foot getting out of the aircraft at the previous refueling stop) = was one that enabled me to detach my battery from the alternator. The = thought at design time was that if my alternator ran-away with high = voltage, I could isolate the battery from the alternator thereby = preventing the battery from overheating/boiling and get to an emergency = landing on battery power alone. Seemed like a good idea at the time. Ed Edward L. Anderson Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC 305 Reefton Road Weddington, NC 28104 http://www.andersonee.com http://www.eicommander.com From: Tom Walter=20 Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 12:35 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Batteries Joe, Which Bob Knuckles system? Z19? I realize Ed is happy with one battery, but I like two batteries. The = THUNK of relays all popping open and the realization of "I turned off = the alternator, and voltage dropped way too low.... followed with LAND = NOW!" would have convinced Ed to have put the second battery back in! It = sure got my attention on why two batteries is a good thing!(Great Story, = but I'll let Ed tell it!) So two batteries, and a BIG RED LIGHT with "low voltage" will go on my = panel. I did the spread sheet with 17AH batteries and flying time. Add in = Night, and no place to easily land.... two batties seem like a good = trade off. My biggest shock was the FORD style contactor needed 1Amp = draw to remain closed. Shutting down non essential, but leaving = contactors, PDF, ECU and coils.... System draw is around 15 Amps. 17AH = implies you'd have an hour, but at 15Amp draw... more like 30-40 = minutes, hence two batteries as 1 hour flying time makes finding a = landing strip a little easier. =20 Tom -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- From: Ed Anderson To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 11:20 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Batteries Joe, I started out using two Concord 25AH RGB each weighing 22 lbs for a = total of over 44 lbs of battery (some joked I could get home by using = the start to crank the prop {:>)) ! I then transition to two Odyssey = PC-680 17AH batteries each weighing 14 lbs for a total of 28 lbs. Then = after 6 years of flying with two batteries and never using the second = one - except to help crank on a cold morning, I removed one of them. = Have now been flying for over 4-5 years with one Odyssey 14lbs. I swap = it out every two years. Ed -------------------------------------------------- From: Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 11:59 AM To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: [FlyRotary] Batteries > What size an type of batteries are required for the rotary? I am = leaning toward using 2 batteries and use Bob Nuckols system. Thanks for = any help. >=20 > Joe Berki > Limo EZ >=20 > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html=20 -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01CC60EE.BA555820 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes, I have also found my GPS can get confused - = especially in the inner city (where you need it the most).  So can = my brain=20 when tired and/or under  pressure - the old brain can do some not = so funny=20 things.
 
I left out one important fact about why the = switch in the=20 wrong position caused the engine out landing. 
 
When I had designed that switch in to disengage = the=20 battery from the alternator (in case of an over voltage condition), the = switch=20 not only removed the battery from the alternator line - but also all my = critical=20 systems (fuel, ignition) which were "smartly" tied to my battery = bus.  So=20 even though the alternator was putting out plenty of power - even if the = battery=20 had been stone, cold dead, it could have powered all of those power = hungry=20 devices.  But having all of that on the battery bus and the battery = bus=20 disconnected from alternator - that pulled that battery down even=20 quicker. 
 
So the fact that it last 45 minutes including = cranking=20 drain for engine start says a lot about the Odyssey PC 680.
 
 

From: Tom Walter
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 2:44 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One Battery - Two Battery was = [FlyRotary]=20 Re: Batteries

Ed,

Thanks.  I remembered you discussing it, = but now it=20 makes sense why you didn't see the low voltage warning from the=20 battery.

I know that 'fixation' issue, all to = well.   On=20 business I'm always running between meetings in new cities, and got to = the point=20 where I really loved (& blindly trusted) my Garmin GPS.  Well = in=20 Phoenix there was an "W.Shangri-La=20 Rd" vs "E.  Shangri-La Rd". = Van full of=20 hungry people wanting dinner, and I kept following the GPS... despite a=20 passenger in the back telling me I was taking the wrong route.  I = just=20 figured the GPS was smarter as it rcd traffic information, and would get = us=20 there faster!  Had I thought to look at a map, or listened the my=20 passenger, but with a load of people, 5pm traffic, and overload after a = day in=20 the sun.... my brain wasn't working.  Live and = learn! 

Tom

From: Ed Anderson=20 <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 = 12:27=20 PM
Subject: = [FlyRotary] One=20 Battery - Two Battery was [FlyRotary] Re: Batteries

Actually, Tom,  in that particular incident = - a=20 second battery would have only enabled me to fly too far away from = the only=20 safe airport to make a return and dead stick into.  IF I had = realized the root cause (a switch accidently put in the wrong position) = then one=20 battery would have worked just as well as two {:>).  =
 
Having said that, I certainly would not try to = get anyone=20 to change their mind about using two batteries. . Some folks = would not=20 feel comfortable even with two batteries - but, would add a second = alternator,=20 etc.  So, you have to think through your scenarios, the risk = involved=20 and your personal risk tolerance.  Yes, Bob now has several good = electrical=20 designs - for just about any kind of power system you could come up = with. =20 Back in 1992, I had never heard of Aeroelectric or Bob.
 
 
 
But, since my previous engine out almost 5 years = previous=20 had been fuel related and the engine was sputtering in a similar manner = - my=20 diagnostic side of the brain got locked in to searching  for a = fuel=20 problem (again) - but even switching tanks did no good - because, this = time the=20 "fuel problem" was a decreasing electrical power.  This incident = clearly=20 pointed out the need for an emergency check list that involved checking = both=20 fuel AND electrical systems.  Coming up with one in your head with = the=20 engine sputtering is not recommended {:>)
 
Contributing factors were two early design = decisions that=20 on hindsight revealed shortcomings.  
 
One was an electrical system design that = permitted my=20 voltmeter to keep showing me the 13.8 volts being generated by the = alternator=20 while the battery voltage was steadly decreasing.  Yes, I had a = low-voltage=20 light right in front of my eyes - but, it was wired into the alternator = powered=20 circuit - so never showed low voltage because the alternator voltage was = fine -=20 up to the point the relay released.
 
   Now,  had  it = occurred to me I=20 might have an electrical problem - and switched the volt meter to the = battery=20 (instead of alternator) AND had thought to observe it, I would have seen = the=20 battery voltage decreasing and that MIGHT have got me looking for an = electrical=20 problem rather than a fuel problem.  But, when you get your head = locked=20 into one focus - and you truly have mental blinders on, NOT = GOOD!
 
The second design deficiency was that  the = relay=20 holding the alternator On-Line was provided current solely  by the = battery=20 - so guess what happened when the battery juice got too low to hold the=20 alternator on-line?  Right "CLACK!!!!!"  followed immediately = by all=20 lights, radios, LEDS, panel going dark.  It gets even lonelier when = the=20 lights go out.  Had I two batteries - all of this would have = happened=20 further from my emergency airport in Salem, Al.
 
No, I have not added the second battery back in = after the=20 incident  - because in my particular case, the incident had nothing = to do=20 with one battery vs two battery  - it was a case of a = mis-positioned switch=20 which the pilot never recognized was the cause - until later on the = ground,=20 cleaning off the seat cushion.  The corrective action was to put a = switch=20 guard over that particular switch so it could NOT be accidently toggled=20 incorrectly AND rewire my relay so that a dead battery would no = longer=20 prevent my system from using the power of a perfectly good=20 alternator.
 
But, this is just my perspective - provided for = anyone to=20 glean what they wish from it - if that is two batteries, two alternators = or what=20 have you, then as always in this hobby, that is up to individual=20 choice. 
 
 Just don't make the same dumb mistakes = I made, we=20 know how those turned out - advance the state of the art and make = NEW=20 mistakes {:>)
 
Oh, yes, the switch I accidently activated (I = think I=20 probably hit it with my foot getting out of the aircraft at the previous = refueling stop) was one that enabled me to detach my battery from the=20 alternator.  The thought at design time was that if my alternator = ran-away=20 with high voltage, I could isolate the battery from the alternator = thereby=20 preventing the battery from overheating/boiling and get to an emergency = landing=20 on battery power alone.  Seemed like a good idea at the = time.
 
Ed
 
Edward L. Anderson
Anderson Electronic = Enterprises=20 LLC
305 Reefton Road
Weddington, NC 28104
http://www.andersonee.com
http://www.eicommander.com

From: Tom Walter
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 12:35 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Batteries

Joe,

Which Bob Knuckles system?  Z19?

I realize Ed is happy with one battery, but I like two=20 batteries.  The THUNK of relays all popping open and = the=20 realization of "I turned off the alternator, and voltage = dropped=20 way too low.... followed with LAND NOW!" would have convinced Ed = to=20 have put the second battery back in! It sure got my attention on why two = batteries is a good thing!(Great Story, but I'll let Ed = tell=20 it!)

So two batteries, and a BIG RED LIGHT with "low voltage" will = go on=20 my panel.

I did the spread sheet with 17AH = batteries and=20 flying time. Add in Night, and no place to easily land.... = two=20 batties seem like a good trade off.  My biggest shock = was the=20 FORD style contactor needed 1Amp draw to remain closed.  Shutting = down=20 non essential, but leaving contactors, PDF, ECU and=20 coils....   System draw is around 15 Amps. 17AH = implies=20 you'd have an hour, but at 15Amp draw... more like 30-40 minutes, hence = two=20 batteries as 1 hour flying time makes finding a landing = strip a=20 little easier. 

Tom

From: Ed Anderson=20 <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 = 11:20=20 AM
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re:=20 Batteries

Joe, I started out using two Concord 25AH RGB = each=20 weighing 22 lbs for a total of over 44 lbs of battery (some joked I = could get=20 home by using the start to crank the prop {:>)) !  I then = transition to=20 two Odyssey PC-680 17AH batteries each weighing 14 lbs for a total of 28 = lbs.  Then after 6 years of flying with two batteries and never = using the=20 second one - except to help crank on a cold morning, I removed one of=20 them.  Have now been flying for over 4-5 years with one Odyssey=20 14lbs.  I swap it out every two=20 years.

Ed

-------------------------------------------------= -
From:=20 <jskmberki@windstream.net&= gt;
Sent:=20 Monday, August 22, 2011 11:59 AM
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" = <flyrotary@lancaironline.ne= t>
Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Batteries

> What size an type of batteries are = required=20 for the rotary?  I am leaning toward using 2 batteries and use Bob = Nuckols=20 system.  Thanks for any help.
>
> Joe Berki
> = Limo=20 EZ
>
> --
> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
> Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.htm= l=20


--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive = and=20 UnSub:  http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.htm= l




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