X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nm11-vm0.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([98.138.90.58] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.1) with SMTP id 5100240 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 14:44:58 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.138.90.58; envelope-from=roundrocktom@yahoo.com Received: from [98.138.90.48] by nm11.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Aug 2011 18:44:25 -0000 Received: from [98.138.87.6] by tm1.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Aug 2011 18:44:25 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Aug 2011 18:44:25 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 109870.21091.bm@omp1006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 90471 invoked by uid 60001); 22 Aug 2011 18:44:24 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1314038664; bh=vSgpjrFHp0G6js4leBNLgFqb2heaJ3fRlyXd4ZWZnAM=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=Hf1Vsi0G7+j/xZQAYSO1L3IrpJ4N4xJMvEcYV1HF83k9nYtH+psv7MHFLUbBNlr0VXQJKBjatC5aJMOf7swFla6WyHfIRe3rxsfjUkqLyTZn+/OVdtlHpqSCDCgWG98SxViYqpznWcHNmjTJ4VZMl66I/iLoGHEtO1LICUpEjCY= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=fZa6d2tJma/QCiVUSG5UBiNGjI9YeI7UfjDualxCuZ4xcx3xcHj44e6XNhv8XlKJtyPpdIxJFVSEhxOSIxYIs/F5Uu99xEzIgGWE00KJtnK+OsuUIoEB+YA6HzvRDjpQGUEcPWg5tQQXiNU2ElvXnxgOzbBWCeJWjs7Jre35gOs=; X-YMail-OSG: rwlXQHAVM1mvNUMGHlRMZp6hyydlj4Z.YFCaYzcoB9q7pzt d3.OYmwJF5ZekwG0acmyDC.Dj9tBUiN58BpWzBxBFtz1z3hx5m9ODLqN17Wl IZW1BKWPC8_FjA5in7uHllYAnpq6jrm00oZS9eCi_5Y9UpltTJj3PJQeejbH KOIkgbJpgL3otPB82Jm5UpYbr2T5HmDnFHP_psKeBlWoa2788c6OXAN6zeJm pl9Bq2b3.V25O18g.dlcjEJVXMZ7zfrJB3rEnRF5Fz25j7QfKfS5m0LoqFT6 MvhT9HeQT987pWFazwFWUS_XiktadKsVffWU73MkrBSmeCYz634qlujPmkUb I4XDD9abE_AZprisvL3IIpNMj_O8UsEDUWbKmUeuvsCe24ya.5X.71w.UNpB oNdFwF8p9uI0i0nAtKf3FyWu_NnRaGKaP4cmBXHzERN9aTfKIgwOyNiIaYbV OvUCSh4P7rSeowYlx6DPuV.rcKCwHWBunC2kWIN4f9AxUaLQYHmDkP3tbO1D 0NHvRh.MB8hoZVtL3BuESbL4YEr6wUxVFhGfId0LIcwVcUYdM7lVU6ZKH5Xn NR32gpPBk9Oizfcxpb22Akm111ZgJtwOcZey8QRW6Lg3uCoo2atVwrwiUEdJ aw3VrYp6MYmc- Received: from [216.52.185.73] by web111515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 11:44:24 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.113.315625 References: Message-ID: <1314038664.81836.YahooMailNeo@web111515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 11:44:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Walter Reply-To: Tom Walter Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] One Battery - Two Battery was [FlyRotary] Re: Batteries To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="247096738-2015516938-1314038664=:81836" --247096738-2015516938-1314038664=:81836 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ed,=0A=0AThanks.=A0 I remembered you discussing it, but now it makes sense = why you didn't see the low voltage warning from the battery.=0A=0AI know th= at 'fixation' issue, all to well.=A0=A0 On business I'm always running betw= een meetings in new cities, and got to the point where I really loved (& bl= indly trusted) my Garmin GPS.=A0 Well in Phoenix there was an "W.Shangri-La= Rd" vs "E.=A0 Shangri-La Rd". Van full of hungry people wanting dinner, and= I kept following the GPS... despite a passenger in the back telling me I w= as taking the wrong route.=A0 I just figured the GPS was smarter as it rcd = traffic information, and would get us there faster!=A0 Had I thought to loo= k at a map, or listened the my passenger, but with a load of people, 5pm tr= affic, and overload after a day in the sun.... my brain wasn't working.=A0 = Live and learn!=A0=0A=0ATom=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AF= rom: Ed Anderson =0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraf= t =0ASent: Monday, August 22, 2011 12:27 PM=0A= Subject: [FlyRotary] One Battery - Two Battery was [FlyRotary] Re: Batteri= es=0A=0A=0AActually, Tom, =A0in that particular incident - a =0Asecond batt= ery would have only=A0enabled me to fly too far away from the only =0Asafe = airport to make a return and dead stick into.=A0 IF I =0Ahad realized the r= oot cause (a switch accidently put in the wrong position) then =0Aone batte= ry would have worked just as well as two {:>).=A0 =0A=A0=0AHaving said that= , I certainly would not try to get anyone =0Ato change their mind about usi= ng two batteries.=A0.=A0Some folks would not =0Afeel comfortable even with = two batteries - but, would add a second alternator, =0Aetc.=A0 So,=A0you ha= ve to think through your scenarios, the risk involved =0Aand your personal = risk tolerance.=A0 Yes, Bob now has several good electrical =0Adesigns - fo= r just about any kind of power system you could come up with.=A0 =0ABack in= 1992, I had never heard of Aeroelectric or Bob.=0A=A0=0A=A0=0A=A0=0ABut, s= ince my previous engine out almost 5 years previous =0Ahad been fuel relate= d and the engine was sputtering in a similar manner - my =0Adiagnostic side= of the brain got locked in to=A0searching =A0for a fuel =0Aproblem (again)= - but even switching tanks did no good - because, this time the =0A"fuel p= roblem" was a decreasing electrical power.=A0 This incident clearly =0Apoin= ted out the need for an emergency check list that involved checking both = =0Afuel AND electrical systems.=A0 Coming up with one in your head with the= =0Aengine sputtering is not recommended {:>)=0A=A0=0AContributing factors = were two early design decisions that =0Aon hindsight revealed shortcomings.= =A0=A0=0A=A0=0AOne was an electrical system design that permitted my =0Avol= tmeter to keep showing me the 13.8 volts being generated by the alternator = =0Awhile the battery voltage was steadly decreasing.=A0 Yes, I had a low-vo= ltage =0Alight right in front of my eyes - but, it was wired into the alter= nator powered =0Acircuit - so never showed low voltage because the alternat= or voltage was fine - =0Aup to the point the relay released.=0A=A0=0A=A0=A0= Now,=A0=A0had=A0 it occurred to me I =0Amight have an electrical problem -= and switched the volt meter to the battery =0A(instead of alternator) AND = had thought to observe it, I would have seen the =0Abattery voltage decreas= ing and that MIGHT have got me looking for an electrical =0Aproblem rather = than a fuel problem.=A0 But, when you get your head locked =0Ainto one focu= s - and you truly have mental blinders on, NOT GOOD!=0A=A0=0AThe second des= ign deficiency was that =A0the relay =0Aholding the alternator On-Line was = provided current solely =A0by the battery =0A- so guess what happened when = the battery juice got too low to hold the =0Aalternator on-line?=A0 Right "= CLACK!!!!!"=A0 followed immediately by all =0Alights, radios, LEDS, panel g= oing dark.=A0 It gets even lonelier when the =0Alights go out.=A0 Had I two= batteries - all of this would have happened =0Afurther from my emergency a= irport in Salem, Al.=0A=A0=0ANo, I have not added the second battery back i= n after the =0Aincident =A0- because in my particular case, the incident ha= d nothing to do =0Awith one battery vs two battery=A0 - it was a case of a = mis-positioned switch =0Awhich the pilot never recognized was the cause - u= ntil later on the ground, =0Acleaning off the seat cushion.=A0 The correcti= ve action was to put a switch =0Aguard over that particular switch so it co= uld NOT be accidently toggled =0Aincorrectly=A0AND rewire my relay so that = a dead battery would no longer =0Aprevent my system from using the power of= a perfectly good =0Aalternator.=0A=A0=0ABut, this is just my perspective -= provided for anyone to =0Aglean what they wish from it - if that is two ba= tteries, two alternators or what =0Ahave you, then as always in this hobby,= that is up to individual =0Achoice.=A0=0A=A0=0A=A0Just don't make the same= dumb mistakes I =0Amade, we know how those turned out=A0- advance the stat= e of the art and make =0ANEW mistakes {:>)=0A=A0=0AOh, yes, the switch I ac= cidently activated (I think I =0Aprobably hit it with my foot getting out o= f the aircraft at the previous =0Arefueling stop) was one that enabled me t= o detach my battery from the =0Aalternator.=A0 The thought at design time w= as that if my alternator ran-away =0Awith high voltage, I could isolate the= battery from the alternator thereby =0Apreventing the battery from overhea= ting/boiling and get to an emergency landing =0Aon battery power alone.=A0 = Seemed like a good idea at the time.=0A=A0=0AEd=0A=A0=0AEdward L. Anderson= =0AAnderson Electronic Enterprises =0ALLC=0A305 Reefton Road=0AWeddington, = NC 28104=0Ahttp://www.andersonee.com=0Ahttp://www.eicommander.com=0A=0A=0A= =0AFrom: Tom Walter =0ASent: Monday, August 22, 2011 12:35 PM=0ATo: Rotary = motors in aircraft =0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: Batteries=0A=0AJoe,=0A=0AWhi= ch Bob Knuckles system?=A0 Z19?=0A=0AI realize Ed is happy with one battery= , but I like two =0Abatteries.=A0 TheTHUNK of relays all popping open and t= he =0Arealization of "I turned off the alternator,and voltage dropped =0Awa= y too low.... followed with LAND NOW!" would have convinced Ed tohave put t= he second battery back in! It sure got my attention on why two =0Abatteries= is a good thing!(Great Story, but I'll let Ed tell =0Ait!)=0A=0A=0ASo two = batteries, and a BIG RED LIGHT with "low voltage" will go on =0Amy panel.= =0AI did the spread sheet with 17AH batteries and =0Aflying time. Add in Ni= ght, and noplace to easily land.... two =0Abatties seem like a good trade o= ff.=A0 My biggest shockwas the =0AFORD style contactor needed 1Amp draw to = remain closed.=A0 Shutting down =0Anonessential, but leaving contactors, PD= F, ECU and =0Acoils....=A0=A0 System draw is around 15 Amps. 17AHimplies = =0Ayou'd have an hour, but at 15Amp draw... more like 30-40 minutes, hence = two =0Abatteriesas 1 hour flying time makes finding a landing strip a =0Ali= ttle easier.=A0 =0A=0ATom=0A =0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A F= rom: Ed Anderson =0A=0ATo: Rotary motors in airc= raft =0A=0ASent: Monday, August 22, 2011 11:20= =0AAM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: =0ABatteries=0A=0AJoe, I started out usin= g two Concord 25AH RGB each =0Aweighing 22 lbs for a total of over 44 lbs o= f battery (some joked I could get =0Ahome by using the start to crank the p= rop {:>)) !=A0 I then transition to =0Atwo Odyssey PC-680 17AH batteries ea= ch weighing 14 lbs for a total of 28 =0Albs.=A0 Then after 6 years of flyin= g with two batteries and never using the =0Asecond one - except to help cra= nk on a cold morning, I removed one of =0Athem.=A0 Have now been flying for= over 4-5 years with one Odyssey =0A14lbs.=A0 I swap it out every two =0Aye= ars.=0A=0AEd=0A=0A--------------------------------------------------=0AFrom= : =0A=0ASent: =0AMonday, August 22, 2011 11:59 AM= =0ATo: "Rotary motors in aircraft" =0ASubject:= =0A[FlyRotary] Batteries=0A=0A> What size an type of batteries are require= d =0Afor the rotary?=A0 I am leaning toward using 2 batteries and use Bob N= uckols =0Asystem.=A0 Thanks for any help.=0A> =0A> Joe Berki=0A> Limo =0AEZ= =0A> =0A> --=0A> Homepage:=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/=0A> Archive and UnS= ub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html =0A=0A=0A--= =0AHomepage:=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/=0AArchive and UnSub:=A0 http://ma= il.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html --247096738-2015516938-1314038664=:81836 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ed,

<= /span>
Thanks.  I remembered y= ou discussing it, but now it makes sense why you didn't see the low voltage= warning from the battery.

I know that 'fixation' issue, all to well.&= nbsp;  On business I'm always running between meetings in new cities, = and got to the point where I really loved (& blindly trusted) my Garmin= GPS.  Well in Phoenix there was an "W.Shangri-La Rd= " vs "E.  Shangri-La Rd". Van full of= hungry people wanting dinner, and I kept following the GPS... despite a pa= ssenger in the back telling me I was taking the wrong route.  I just figured the= GPS was smarter as it rcd traffic information, and would get us there fast= er!  Had I thought to look at a map, or listened the my passenger, but= with a load of people, 5pm traffic, and overload after a day in the sun...= . my brain wasn't working.  Live and learn! 
Tom

From: Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>To: Rotary motors in airc= raft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 12:27 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] One Battery -= Two Battery was [FlyRotary] Re: Batteries

=0A=0A =0A =0A=0A=0A =0A
Actually, Tom, &n= bsp;in that particular incident - a =0Asecond battery would have only = enabled me to fly too far away from the only =0Asafe airport to make a retu= rn and dead stick into.  IF I =0Ahad realized the root cause (a= switch accidently put in the wrong position) then =0Aone battery would hav= e worked just as well as two {:>). 
=0A
 
=0A
Having said that= , I certainly would not try to get anyone =0Ato change their mind about usi= ng two batteries. . Some folks would not =0Afeel comfortable even= with two batteries - but, would add a second alternator, =0Aetc.  So,=  you have to think through your scenarios, the risk involved =0Aand yo= ur personal risk tolerance.  Yes, Bob now has several good electrical = =0Adesigns - for just about any kind of power system you could come up with= .  =0ABack in 1992, I had never heard of Aeroelectric or Bob.=0A
 
=0A
 
=0A
 
= =0A
But, since my previous engine out almost 5 yea= rs previous =0Ahad been fuel related and the engine was sputtering in a sim= ilar manner - my =0Adiagnostic side of the brain got locked in to sear= ching  for a fuel =0Aproblem (again) - but even switching tanks did no= good - because, this time the =0A"fuel problem" was a decreasing electrica= l power.  This incident clearly =0Apointed out the need for an emergen= cy check list that involved checking both =0Afuel AND electrical systems.&n= bsp; Coming up with one in your head with the =0Aengine sputtering is not r= ecommended {:>)
=0A
 =0A
Contributing factors were two early design= decisions that =0Aon hindsight revealed shortcomings.  =0A
 
=0A
One was an electrical system design that permitted my =0Avoltmeter to= keep showing me the 13.8 volts being generated by the alternator =0Awhile = the battery voltage was steadly decreasing.  Yes, I had a low-voltage = =0Alight right in front of my eyes - but, it was wired into the alternator = powered =0Acircuit - so never showed low voltage because the alternator vol= tage was fine - =0Aup to the point the relay released.
=0A
=  
=0A
 =   Now,  had  it occurred to me I =0Amight have an elect= rical problem - and switched the volt meter to the battery =0A(instead of a= lternator) AND had thought to observe it, I would have seen the =0Abattery = voltage decreasing and that MIGHT have got me looking for an electrical =0A= problem rather than a fuel problem.  But, when you get your head locke= d =0Ainto one focus - and you truly have mental blinders on, NOT GOOD!
=0A
 
=0A
The second design deficiency was that  the relay =0Aholding= the alternator On-Line was provided current solely  by the battery = =0A- so guess what happened when the battery juice got too low to hold the = =0Aalternator on-line?  Right "CLACK!!!!!"  followed immediately = by all =0Alights, radios, LEDS, panel going dark.  It gets even loneli= er when the =0Alights go out.  Had I two batteries - all of this would= have happened =0Afurther from my emergency airport in Salem, Al.=0A
 
=0A
No, I have not added the second battery back in after the =0Aincident =  - because in my particular case, the incident had nothing to do =0Awi= th one battery vs two battery  - it was a case of a mis-positioned swi= tch =0Awhich the pilot never recognized was the cause - until later on the = ground, =0Acleaning off the seat cushion.  The corrective action was t= o put a switch =0Aguard over that particular switch so it could NOT be acci= dently toggled =0Aincorrectly AND rewire my relay so that a dead batte= ry would no longer =0Aprevent my system from using the power of a perfectly= good =0Aalternator.
=0A
 =
=0A
But, this is just my perspective - provi= ded for anyone to =0Aglean what they wish from it - if that is two batterie= s, two alternators or what =0Ahave you, then as always in this hobby, that = is up to individual =0Achoice. 
=0A
 
=0A
 Just don't make= the same dumb mistakes I =0Amade, we know how those turned out - adva= nce the state of the art and make =0ANEW mistakes {:>)
= =0A
 
=0A
Oh, yes, the switch I accidently activated (I think I =0Aprobabl= y hit it with my foot getting out of the aircraft at the previous =0Arefuel= ing stop) was one that enabled me to detach my battery from the =0Aalternat= or.  The thought at design time was that if my alternator ran-away =0A= with high voltage, I could isolate the battery from the alternator thereby = =0Apreventing the battery from overheating/boiling and get to an emergency = landing =0Aon battery power alone.  Seemed like a good idea at the tim= e.
=0A
 
=0A
Ed
=0A
 <= /div>=0A
Edward L. Anderson
Anderson Electronic= Enterprises =0ALLC
305 Reefton Road
Weddington, NC 28104
http://w= ww.andersonee.com
http://www.eicommander.com
=0A<= div style=3D"FONT:10pt Tahoma;">=0A

=0A
=0A
From: Tom Walter
=0ASent: Monday, August 22, 2011 12:35 PM
=0A=0A
Subject: [F= lyRotary] Re: Batteries
=0A

=0A
=0A
Joe,
=0A<= div>
=0A
Which Bob Knuckles system?  Z= 19?
=0A

=0A
I realize Ed i= s happy with one battery, but I like two =0Abatteries.  The THUNK of relays all popping open and the =0Arealization of "I turned off= the alternator, and voltage dropped =0Away too low.... follow= ed with LAND NOW!" would have convinced Ed to =0Ahave put the = second battery back in! It sure got my attention on why two =0Abatteries is= a good thing!(Great Story, but I'll let Ed tell =0Ait!)
=0A

=0A
So two batteries, a= nd a BIG RED LIGHT with "low voltage" will go on =0Amy panel.
= =0A

I did the spread sheet with 17AH batte= ries and =0Aflying time. Add in Night, and no place to easily = land.... two =0Abatties seem like a good trade off.  My biggest shock<= /span> was the =0AFORD style contactor needed 1Amp draw to remain clo= sed.  Shutting down =0Anon essential, but leaving contact= ors, PDF, ECU and =0Acoils....   System draw is around 15 Amps. 1= 7AH implies =0Ayou'd have an hour, but at 15Amp draw... more l= ike 30-40 minutes, hence two =0Abatteries as 1 hour flying tim= e makes finding a landing strip a =0Alittle easier. 

Tom
=0A

=0A
=0A
=0A
=0AFro= m: Ed Anderson =0A<eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A<= ;flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Se= nt: Monday, August 22, 2011 11:20 =0AAM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: =0ABatteries
=
Joe, I started out using two Concord 25AH RGB each =0Aweighing 22 lbs f= or a total of over 44 lbs of battery (some joked I could get =0Ahome by usi= ng the start to crank the prop {:>)) !  I then transition to =0Atwo= Odyssey PC-680 17AH batteries each weighing 14 lbs for a total of 28 =0Alb= s.  Then after 6 years of flying with two batteries and never using th= e =0Asecond one - except to help crank on a cold morning, I removed one of = =0Athem.  Have now been flying for over 4-5 years with one Odyssey =0A= 14lbs.  I swap it out every two =0Ayears.

Ed

-----------= ---------------------------------------
From: =0A<jskmberki@windstream.net>
Sent: =0AM= onday, August 22, 2011 11:59 AM
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.n= et>
Subject: =0A[FlyRotary] Batteries

> What size an ty= pe of batteries are required =0Afor the rotary?  I am leaning toward u= sing 2 batteries and use Bob Nuckols =0Asystem.  Thanks for any help.<= br>>
> Joe Berki
> Limo =0AEZ
>
> --
> H= omepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
> Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary= /List.html =0A


--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/=
Archive and UnSub:  http://mai= l.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html


=0A


--247096738-2015516938-1314038664=:81836--