X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-fx0-f52.google.com ([209.85.161.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.1) with ESMTPS id 5099063 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 21 Aug 2011 11:39:05 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.161.52; envelope-from=wdleonard@gmail.com Received: by fxd18 with SMTP id 18so2791403fxd.25 for ; Sun, 21 Aug 2011 08:38:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=ySuZGXNTjwwrVQVpQ7K0zl3SxDpIbmUsksvFY5jHrJI=; b=gi7SfjZKLlbIb8TG2tDzT8phPUFKAHgHPIeiukOzRh6GsDWbOqHXdOSUQArFuuHEGc i0WshwuKYMVrCL2m1hi3AeRRiPjLFoJr42UFbwbkarTWE/omrx2+9MhdbDiqQcqNzH7D LgkJFEM3hkNgpntuMzzAg7Gq80VlCAWKl5fsg= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.22.14 with SMTP id l14mr2244930fab.100.1313941107555; Sun, 21 Aug 2011 08:38:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.2.207 with HTTP; Sun, 21 Aug 2011 08:38:27 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 08:38:27 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Fwd: oil premix data; info request From: David Leonard To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00151747bc2ef8bf5904ab05c0d3 --00151747bc2ef8bf5904ab05c0d3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 My situation is similar to Ed's. I use -8 hose with a large (low resistance) cooler. I use the stock filter and location, then -4 line to the turbo and gear box. I measure pressure just before it gets to the gear box. My pressure readings are about the same as Ed's but I seem to get to full pressure somewhere around 4000 RPM. -- David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 7:41 AM, Ed Anderson wrote: > ** > I have a 13B block with eccentric shaft jets and remote oil filter. Above > 5000 rpm my pressure is 70 psi at propeller end after oil cooler and filter > > Idle pressure is around 30-35 psi and climbs to 50 psi above 3500 rpm > > Ed > > Edward L. Anderson > Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC > 305 Reefton Road > Weddington, NC 28104 > http://www.andersonee.com > http://www.eicommander.com > > *From:* Kelly Troyer > *Sent:* Sunday, August 21, 2011 10:25 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Fwd: oil premix data; info request > > Might be interesting to hear from those flying what rpm it takes to see > max oil > pressure.............We have a multitude of oil system variations in the > group and > where you take your pressure measurement will have a direct bearing on the > rpm needed for full pressure but if you take it from the far (propeller) > end of the > engine like Tracy we should be somewhat on the same page as far as the RPM > needed for full pressure...............Everyone is lubing a redrive (RD1x > for most) > and some have the added lube requirements of eccentric shaft jets and/or a > Turbocharger............... > > > Kelly Troyer > *"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)* > "13B ROTARY"_ Engine > "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 > "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold > "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo > > *From:* Tracy > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Sunday, August 21, 2011 7:22 AM > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Fwd: oil premix data; info request > > To give an actual example of what Lynn described, the 20B installation in > my RV-8 is plumbed with -8 oil lines. The oil requirements of the 20B is > of course 50% more than the 13B and I still see full oil pressure at > anything over 3800 rpm and I'm measuring it at the far end of the oil galley > in the engine. The only measure I took to improve oil flow was to clean up > the passages in the front housing oil passages near the oil pump. > > I did some measurements of pressure drops through the system and did see > that the lines and fittings were dropping a significant amount of pressure > so I am pushing the lower limit of hose size and anything less would be a > mistake. I had some space and routing issues that made -10 lines > problematic, otherwise that's what I would have used. > > Tracy > > > Sent from my iPad > > On Aug 21, 2011, at 1:37 AM, Lehanover@aol.com wrote: > > The oil pump produces a fixed volume tied to RPM. The output is a > function of the total resistance to flow of the system which is just about > fixed, plus the pop setting of the relief valve, also fixed. > > So, if we do not include such things a viscosity changes, foaming, > temperature changes, suction side losses and all of the things that cloud > the issue, > and just look at the flow, we see that unless there has been a very small > hose or gallery size selected, the hose or gallery diameter and volume has > no affect at all on pump output, total resistance, or temperature. So the > bigger the hoses, in effect the closer you get to a static system where > pressure is uniform everywhere. The one effect of larger hoses we want is > the lower velocity of the oil. Drag increases at the square of velocity, so > a small increase in diameter reduces the velocity and drag and also the > amount of heat the pump puts into the oil. > > We are also adding some length of hose in excess of the stock system, with > more remote filtering and ideal cooler locations and similar, so the larger > hose diameter is of some benefit there. > > Suppose we have a 200 foot long oil hose in 12" diameter, and another in > 1/8" diameter. Both are pressurized with the same size pump turning the same > RPM. We have pressure gages at the opposite end next to the relief valve > with the pop pressure set at 80 PSI. We also have pressure gages at the pump > end. Assume both volumes remain as at rest, what happens when we fire the > pumps together? > > The large diameter version, the pump builds to just above 80 PSI and the > relieve valve pops at the far end about a second later holding the full 80 > PSI in the tube, and dumping excess oil with gusto. > > In the small diameter version, the pump builds up 150 PSI, and 3 seconds > later the relief valve pops at 80 PSI, but just dribbles oil. > > The larger system is a nearly static situation, while the smaller system is > a very dynamic situation. > > Lynn E. Hanover > > No, I am not recommending 12" diameter oil hoses. > > > > In a message dated 8/20/2011 1:25:20 P.M. Paraguay Standard Time, > dale.rog@gmail.com writes: > > Kelly, > > I know you asked Lynn, but ... > > Things to think about: the original oil system for the 13B was designed to > support two 10mm (~3/8") oil paths - one to the main bearings and one to the > pressure regulator in the rear (flywheel end) iron. Any volume of oil that > exceeds the capacities of those paths will result in excessive oil > pressure. Going to an external pressure regulator will solve that problem, > but to what purpose? For any given pressure, going from a 3/8" line to 1/2" > adds 77% to the volume being pumped; going to a -10 (5/8") nearly triples > the oil flow; -12 (3/4") more than quadruples it - you end up pumping a lot > of oil - thereby adding heat to it - then cooling it and returning it > directly to the sump. > > So, how much oil flow do you need for your turbo and re-drive? As much as > the engine itself? I rather suspect that having larger than -10 up to the > point where the oil supply splits to service the various components won't > buy you any advantage except lower oil temps, and that is actually > doubtful. > > Dale_R > COZY MkIV #0497 > > > > --00151747bc2ef8bf5904ab05c0d3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My situation is similar to Ed's.=A0 I use -8 hose with a large (low res= istance) cooler.=A0 I use the stock filter and location, then -4 line to th= e turbo and gear box.=A0 I measure pressure just before it gets to the gear= box.=A0 My pressure readings are about the same as Ed's but I seem to = get to full pressure somewhere around 4000 RPM.

--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net

On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 7:41 AM, Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com> wrote:
=A0I have a 13B block with eccentric shaft jets a= nd=20 remote oil filter.=A0 Above 5000 rpm my pressure is 70 psi at propeller end= =20 after oil cooler and filter
=A0
Idle pressure is around 30-35 psi and climbs to 5= 0 psi=20 above 3500 rpm
=A0
Ed
=A0
Edward L. Anderson
Anderson Electronic Enterpr= ises=20 LLC
305 Reefton Road
Weddington, NC 28104
http://www.andersonee.com
http://www.eicommander.com

Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 10:25 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re= : Fwd: oil premix data; info=20 request

Might be interesting to hear=20 from those flying what rpm it takes to see max oil
pressure.............We have=20 a multitude of oil system variations in the group and
where you take your pressure=20 measurement will have a direct bearing=A0 on the
rpm needed for full pressure=20 but if you take it from the far (propeller) end of the
engine like Tracy we should=20 be somewhat on the same page as far as the RPM
needed for full=20 pressure...............Everyone is lubing a redrive (RD1x for most)<= /div>
and some have the added lube=20 requirements of eccentric shaft jets and/or a
Turbocharger...............
=A0
=A0
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" = (Eventually)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
&quo= t;MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil=20 Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

= From: Tracy=20 <rwstracy@gmail.= com>
To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 7:22=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary]= Re:=20 Fwd: oil premix data; info request

To give an actual example of what Lynn described, the 20B installation= in=20 my RV-8 is plumbed with -8 oil lines. =A0 The oil requirements of the 20B i= s=20 of course 50% more than the 13B and I still see full oil pressure at anythi= ng=20 over 3800 rpm and I'm measuring it at the far end of the oil galley in = the=20 engine. =A0 The only measure I took to improve oil flow was to clean up the= =20 passages in the front housing oil passages near the oil pump.

I did some measurements of pressure drops through the system and did s= ee=20 that the lines and fittings were dropping a significant amount of pressure = so I=20 am pushing the lower limit of hose size and anything less would be a mistak= e.=20 =A0 I had some space and routing issues that made -10 lines problematic,=20 otherwise that's what I would have used.

Tracy


Sent from my iPad

On Aug 21, 2011, at 1:37 AM, Lehanover@aol.com wrote:

The oil pump produces a fixed volume tied to RPM. The output is a=20 function of the total resistance to flow of the system which is just abou= t=20 fixed, plus the pop setting of the relief valve, also fixed.
=A0
So, if we do not include such things a viscosity changes, foaming,= =20 temperature changes, suction side losses and all of the things that cloud= the=20 issue,
and just look at the flow, we see that unless there has been a very = small=20 hose or gallery size selected, the hose or gallery diameter and volume ha= s no=20 affect at all on pump output, total resistance, or temperature. So the bi= gger=20 the hoses, in effect the closer you get to a static system where pressure= is=20 uniform everywhere. The one effect of larger hoses we want is the lower= =20 velocity of the oil. Drag increases at the square of velocity, so a small= =20 increase in diameter reduces the velocity and drag and also the amount of= heat=20 the pump puts into the oil.
=A0
We are also adding some=A0length of hose in excess of the stock=20 system,=A0with more remote filtering and ideal cooler locations and=20 similar, so the larger hose diameter is of some benefit there.
=A0
Suppose we have a 200 foot long oil hose in 12" diameter, and a= nother in=20 1/8" diameter. Both are pressurized with the same size pump turning = the same=20 RPM. We have pressure gages at the opposite end next to the relief valve = with=20 the pop pressure set at 80 PSI. We also have pressure gages at the pump e= nd.=20 Assume both volumes remain as at rest, what happens when we fire the pump= s=20 together?
=A0
The large diameter version, the pump builds to just above 80 PSI and= the=20 relieve valve pops at the far end about a second later holding the full 8= 0 PSI=20 in the tube, and dumping excess oil with gusto.
=A0
In the small diameter version, the pump builds up 150 PSI, and 3 sec= onds=20 later the relief valve pops at 80 PSI, but just dribbles oil.
=A0
The larger system is a nearly static situation, while the smaller sy= stem=20 is a very dynamic situation.
=A0
Lynn E. Hanover
=A0
No, I am not recommending 12" diameter oil hoses.
=A0
=A0
=A0
In a message dated 8/20/2011 1:25:20 P.M. Paraguay Standard Time, dale= .rog@gmail.com writes:
Kelly,

=A0=A0 I know you asked Lynn, = but=20 ...

Things to think about: the original oil system for the 13B w= as=20 designed to support two 10mm (~3/8") oil paths - one to the main b= earings=20 and one to the pressure regulator in the rear (flywheel end) iron. Any= =20 volume of oil that exceeds the capacities of those paths will result in= =20 excessive oil pressure.=A0 Going to an external pressure regulator will= =20 solve that problem, but to what purpose?=A0 For any given pressure, goi= ng=20 from a 3/8" line to 1/2" adds 77% to the volume being pumped;= going to a -10=20 (5/8") nearly triples the oil flow; -12 (3/4") more than quad= ruples it - you=20 end up pumping a lot of oil - thereby adding heat to it - then cooling = it=20 and returning it directly to the sump.

So, how much oil flow do= you=20 need for your turbo and re-drive?=A0 As much as the engine itself?=A0= =20 I rather suspect that having larger than -10 up to the point where the = oil=20 supply splits to service the various components won't buy you any a= dvantage=20 except lower oil temps, and=A0 that is actually=20 doubtful.

Dale_R
COZY MkIV=20 #0497




--00151747bc2ef8bf5904ab05c0d3--