X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-iy0-f180.google.com ([209.85.210.180] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.0) with ESMTPS id 5061304 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 23 Jul 2011 14:04:12 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.210.180; envelope-from=fluffysheap@gmail.com Received: by iyh42 with SMTP id 42so4139035iyh.25 for ; Sat, 23 Jul 2011 11:03:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=ph6iq13JpIyvMU1JVNgKjdfhwzQ8LQhn8NR4g1dspfk=; b=ZMtn2eLvMW4Y/I0vSQPcWkBGVWU874rOW/9a2EPXtjvcDQMpR9ZkANcyMcbHwE3n8A B0q1XdM2CuDhshCZ83QkjBKMDmL81IZsTjrzyBytEiaC/wryF+EnPB+mh+ZpcxllaoU1 Si8X7nJot7r9kjn1OTTq5w7mQg99k03l0fPBk= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.124.167 with SMTP id u39mr2748483ibr.103.1311444216509; Sat, 23 Jul 2011 11:03:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.156.82 with HTTP; Sat, 23 Jul 2011 11:03:36 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 12:03:36 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Off Subject From: William Wilson To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6471632aaf40404a8c06658 --0016e6471632aaf40404a8c06658 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 For the last two decades or so, the shuttle has existed mostly as a way to deliver things to the ISS, and the ISS has existed mostly as a place for the shuttle to fly to. While the Hubble repairs were a great accomplishment, it probably would have been cheaper to just build an entirely new telescope and send it up on some sort of unmanned rocket whenever the original one wore out. This is not to say that I think manned spaceflight is a bad idea - but the reality is that there is really nothing to do in Earth orbit, and that is the only place the manned space program has been able to go for decades. Manned spaceflight needs to be focused on setting up a permanent settlement on Mars, the only worthwhile goal for manned spaceflight in the foreseeable future. And for the cost and casualties of the shuttle program over its lifetime, with the knowledge and technology base that existed right after Apollo, that probably could have been accomplished. (Much of the Apollo know-how has been lost due to simple retirement and/or death of so many people that worked on it, and in the much more risk-averse environment of today compared to the 60's, this knowledge probably cannot be recovered, at least not by a government-sponsored program). I think a lot of the disappointment over the retirement of the shuttle has to do with a sense of the US losing its place of leadership, or even going backwards in capability. To some degree that is a concern, but to an even greater degree, the shuttle has become a case of throwing good money after bad. We can't go forward and bring the shuttle with us. On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 10:47 AM, Tracy wrote: > I grew up dreaming of space travel but I'm even more driven by reality. > > If you understand the goal of the space shuttle, you are forced to > acknowledge that it was a monumental failure. It was touted to be a low > cost space transportation system but on a cost per pound delivered to orbit, > it was by far the most expensive system ever built. The throwaway Saturn 5 > rocket was far cheaper and more reliable to boot. The Lowest cost for a > shuttle mission was about 500 million not including mission payload costs. > The Russians charge us 125 million per space station resupply missions > including all payload costs. > > And don't get me started on the "international space station " itself. It > has no commercial sponsors as originally intended because it has no > commercial use and darn little scientific use. And the US pays very near > 100% of the costs. > > The only worthwhile accomplishment of the shuttle was the launch and repair > of the Hubble telescope. It replacement (the much larger and powerful James > Webb telescope) will be launched by the French Ariane 5 rocket. THAT sorry > state of affairs is the fault of the shuttle program which ate up all > development funds that could have gone to something worthwhile. > > OK, end of rant : ) > > Tracy > Sent from my iPad > > On Jul 23, 2011, at 12:13 PM, "Bobby J. Hughes" wrote: > > Makes me feel a little sick. > > Sent from my iPad > > On Jul 23, 2011, at 10:53 AM, "Kelly Troyer" < > keltro@att.net> wrote: > > *Sorry State of affairs!!* > > > Russia Says End Of Shuttle Program Ushers In The 'Era Of Soyuz' Points To > 'Reliability' Of Its Spacecraft In A Post-Shuttle > World > > Russia says the end of the U.S. Space Shuttle program marks the > beginning of the "Era Of Soyuz" for transportation to the > International Space Station. > > "From today, the era of the Soyuz has started in manned space > flight, the era of reliability," the Russian space agency Roscosmos > said in a statement. > > The French news service AFP reports that the Soyuz design has > changed little since Yuri Gagarin first climbed aboard one to > become the first man in orbit. But the Russian space agency says > they have continuously improved the spacecraft, and the fact that > it is still flying as the shuttle program ends is a testament to > the "reliability and not to mention cost efficiency" of the older > design. > > In a nod to the U.S. Space program, the statement said "Mankind > acknowledges the role of American space ships in exploring the > cosmos." > > But Russia is clearly basking in the fact that it now has the > only vehicle capable of transporting humans to the ISS and back > likely until 2016 at the earliest. > FMI: > www.roscosmos.ru/main.php > > Kelly Troyer > *"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)* > "13B ROTARY"_ Engine > "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 > "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold > "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo > > --0016e6471632aaf40404a8c06658 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For the last two decades or so, the shuttle has existed mostly as a way to = deliver things to the ISS, and the ISS has existed mostly as a place for th= e shuttle to fly to.=A0 While the Hubble repairs were a great accomplishmen= t, it probably would have been cheaper to just build an entirely new telesc= ope and send it up on some sort of unmanned rocket whenever the original on= e wore out.

This is not to say that I think manned spaceflight is a bad idea - but = the reality is that there is really nothing to do in Earth orbit, and that = is the only place the manned space program has been able to go for decades.= =A0 Manned spaceflight needs to be focused on setting up a permanent settle= ment on Mars, the only worthwhile goal for manned spaceflight in the forese= eable future.=A0 And for the cost and casualties of the shuttle program ove= r its lifetime, with the knowledge and technology base that existed right a= fter Apollo, that probably could have been accomplished.=A0 (Much of the Ap= ollo know-how has been lost due to simple retirement and/or death of so man= y people that worked on it, and in the much more risk-averse environment of= today compared to the 60's, this knowledge probably cannot be recovere= d, at least not by a government-sponsored program).

I think a lot of the disappointment over the retirement of the shuttle = has to do with a sense of the US losing its place of leadership, or even go= ing backwards in capability.=A0 To some degree that is a concern, but to an= even greater degree, the shuttle has become a case of throwing good money = after bad.=A0 We can't go forward and bring the shuttle with us.

On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 10:47 AM, Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com<= /a>> wrote:
I grew up dreaming of space travel but I'= m even more driven by reality. =A0=A0

If you under= stand the goal of the space shuttle, you are forced to acknowledge that it = was a monumental failure. =A0It was touted to be a low cost space transport= ation system but on a cost per pound delivered to orbit, it was by far the = most expensive system ever built. =A0 The throwaway Saturn 5 rocket was far= cheaper and more reliable to boot. =A0The Lowest cost for a shuttle missio= n was about 500 million not including mission payload costs. =A0The Russian= s charge us 125 million per space station resupply missions including all p= ayload costs. =A0

And don't get me started on the "international space stat= ion " itself. =A0It has no commercial sponsors as originally intended = because it has no commercial use and darn little scientific use. =A0 And th= e US pays very near 100% of the costs. =A0

The only worthwhile accomplishment of the shuttle was t= he launch and repair of the Hubble telescope. =A0It replacement (the much l= arger and powerful James Webb telescope) will be launched by the French Ari= ane 5 rocket. =A0 THAT sorry state of affairs is the fault of the shuttle p= rogram which ate up all development funds that could have gone to something= worthwhile.

OK, end of rant : )

Tracy
Sent from my iPad
Makes me feel a li= ttle sick.=A0

Sent from my iPad

On Jul 23, 2011, at 10= :53 AM, "Kelly Troyer" <keltr= o@att.net> wrote:

Sorry State of affairs!!
=A0

Russia Says End Of Shuttle Program Ushers In The 'Era Of= Soyuz' Points To 'Reliability' Of Its Spacecraft In A Post-Shu= ttle
World

Russia says the end of the U.S. Space Shuttle progra= m marks the
beginning of the "Era Of Soyuz" for transportation to the
Int= ernational Space Station.

"From today, the era of the Soyuz ha= s started in manned space
flight, the era of reliability," the Rus= sian space agency Roscosmos
said in a statement.

The French news service AFP reports that the S= oyuz design has
changed little since Yuri Gagarin first climbed aboard = one to
become the first man in orbit. But the Russian space agency says=
they have continuously improved the spacecraft, and the fact that
it is= still flying as the shuttle program ends is a testament to
the "r= eliability and not to mention cost efficiency" of the older
design= .

In a nod to the U.S. Space program, the statement said "Mankind
acknowledges = the role of American space ships in exploring the
cosmos."
But Russia is clearly basking in the fact that it now has the
only veh= icle capable of transporting humans to the ISS and back
likely until 2016 at the earliest.
FMI: www.roscosmos.ru/main.php
=A0
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" = (Eventually)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
&quo= t;MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

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