X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nm26.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.44.153] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.0) with SMTP id 5054240 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 17 Jul 2011 00:19:12 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.44.153; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: from [98.139.44.106] by nm26.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Jul 2011 04:18:36 -0000 Received: from [98.139.44.80] by tm11.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Jul 2011 04:18:36 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1017.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Jul 2011 04:18:36 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 914119.39005.bm@omp1017.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 57839 invoked by uid 60001); 17 Jul 2011 04:18:36 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1310876316; bh=LNKvlYTTS58F7H39cw5Pyr/U13e/hY/KE9dgbmSXH1s=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=Q0rTV+H2Z+G8GKps9rahkPvsLxEepW1sA2UEGeSBPBgpv98bRK5CfvJIZOTgA3uaFb9UQPkxY+X9znrSA12N9GL5b7UT+YfSfoBSomcwV5JVBjfDX66pWjMZIhR2X6U6PPS0DOHSYOQJRh8V6Brp1/UbW1jvFP73A0eb41mheqc= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=att.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=Lc87XLtOVC7TIRCm32zilpSg7tTfdrkvXmYAdvTY2BjLmHd/VO0Okg4Y63qR3ESrS1uHR358b7g+nw6sud/EuTm1eAez85VB9lkCgUC8vAL1y0l7jkKvxCAT7TVyY8fcToiyoc8s5HapJbOblZbiCrQ+B9wi9/CywrzYq+9Saeo=; X-YMail-OSG: xvRzFFgVM1ljusVK8xvDcipsGwSjE13ET8WZlB81o.ImhZ_ Fo_0QdarS_70E3r4nKODVCstJK1il8zd0kkv4cIQDcgdQHuJe7md23uRE3OJ _.fdrciBO_pbWhD0EPFZwrKuZBFOhFXB5aL67zqhCQ4DtcwRAjSofHutWFMs .1nAKANi8d9Titkub1NMWnldqvRrFFtkDh3VTE.c28I6.TCAfBbvukjj9w4k G.oQOvLQpG7PvNiqrnaT5UVUaAMkAHY82W1BMdDuylIrMOUyIyeoWRI3kRFR m0ouMIM006..MvP670RQ_zJOx65JD2UtOgZE1ctFlJSz327JK.5KEeE6tlt8 Dt8Sj.0_xxFdep9g3M74rQ3XpwaVyN2QbCwzYLeYe3A8cScC6P16DgdPBRzA RFKIBQwqkIP28qlcWYRQ9AUk.K2SPSr9ld3CV2ZeQyIqKDDbeSYFBUdsMfbZ MEA16gXGwzwCOg.cJvYPY6bvAFhNaJBtxBPM_MXfsiMePkoM98A3o8Yg3PpV ZOEUTXye2M94Vu3RRsR5HS17tQT0L9_623hyysZa0BP6_KxeOOw3cHzDdIYK UcEazJTDUK0mN_MzGp.rsxcNAHGCw079G0a438lkGDWPJ.uqWKCCQI.p0j4t amkI4NBEy9BpABVy7A6iXeBqao6mxUJJamNCfsgBpNSBjsZpOQrWtiYB7clC wP9kGZCnfihDKRmHdgUGtDeFrwMFuRbAvYoRFzG2lDg-- Received: from [208.114.39.18] by web83908.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 16 Jul 2011 21:18:36 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.112.307740 References: Message-ID: <1310876316.32684.YahooMailNeo@web83908.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 21:18:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Kelly Troyer Reply-To: Kelly Troyer Subject: ]Re: Ok Here are the important flywheel measurements To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-183008425-1310876316=:32684" --0-183008425-1310876316=:32684 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dave and All,=0A=A0=0A=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Just verified your 0.913 mea= surement from the eccentric shaft nut face of the rear counterweight=0Ato t= he rear (aft) face of the "ACT" 13.8 lb flywheel starter ring gear.........= ....Waiting on the 93-95 Turbo=0Astarter to see if it has a longer housing = and will engage the flywheel ring gear..........=0A=A0=0A=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0 After inspecting this flywheel I believe that with the help of my CC= M (Cheap Chinese Mill) that it=0Awill.be possible to whittle this thing dow= n to under eight lbs..............I have no need for the thick clutch=0Afri= ction surface=A0and believe=A0milling several large holes around this area= =A0=A0will not=A0sacrifice any strength=0Aas it is severely overbuilt for t= he loads we will put on it in an aircraft...........We will see............= =0A=0AKelly Troyer=0A"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engine= =0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A"TURBONETICS"_TO= 4E50 Turbo=0A=0AFrom: David Leonard =0ATo: Rotary moto= rs in aircraft =0ASent: Saturday, July 16, 201= 1 5:05 PM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ok Here are the important flywheel mea= surements=0A=0A=0AGood work Kelly.=0A=0AI would assume that your new flywhe= el would put the ring gear right where the stock flywheel puts it.. and tha= t would be about .365 further from the gear drive.=A0 I'm not sure that a t= urbo starter is going to fix our problems with that distance.=A0 What we ne= ed is just a starter that extends further, but is otherwise unchanged.=A0 L= ooking at the pictures online, the first thing I notice is that the solenoi= d is mounted on the oppisite side of the gear opening from the one we curre= ntly use.=A0 Even if that will not interfere with anything else under your = cowl, it makes me suspicous that it may be mounted the other way around - a= nd consequently turn in the opposite direction.=A0 But I don't know that it= won't work..=A0 waiting to get measurements from you on that starter :-)= =0A=0AIf it dosent fit, another option besides welding on another ring gear= might be to trim down the mounting wings on the current starter and make a= recess in the adapter plate in order to extend the reach of the gear enoug= h to engage.=0A=0A-- =0ADavid Leonard=0A=0ATurbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY=0Ahttp://= N4VY.RotaryRoster.net=0Ahttp://RotaryRoster.net=0A=0A=0AOne option if it do= es not work=0A=0A=0AOn Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 2:21 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote:=0A=0ADave and All,=0A>=A0=0A>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Ok = Dave the "ACT" "Streetlite" 13.8 lb flywheel was just delivered and I am in= process of taking=0A>your measurements to see where we stand..............= ..This flywheel is a thing of beauty (to a RotorHead)=0A>and my RD1C drive = plate will bolt to it with no problem (through drill and spotface the rear = of the flywheel=0A>because it has a slight taper in that area).............= I just have to verify just where the RD1C drive splines =0A>will be positio= ned (fore and aft) on the input shaft compared to the RX7 flexplate........= .....The clutch plate=0A>friction area is slightly raised (about 0.065) abo= ve the clutch mount area and I would probably take it=0A>down tto the clutc= h level (probably not necessary but would reduce weight slightly...........= ..I have a 93-95=0A>Turbo starter on the way (should take care of starter m= esh problem)..............If you are interested I can=0A>guide you to anoth= er 93-95 starter (used $49.00 with/shipping) if it is still for sale.......= ......=0A>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 One other thing at this time..............T= he lighter 9.8 lb version may be usable but it is listed as 116=0A>ring gea= r teeth and I have not found out what its diameter is and what starter woul= d be used with it......=0A>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 I suspect it may be the di= ameter of the NA 13B flywheels and may use the 86-91=A0NA manual trans=0A>s= tarter............You need to talk to the manufacturer..........They are in= Lancaster, Calif............The 9.8 lb=0A>version is a little more expensi= ve due to more extensive machine work to reduce weight.............See the= =0A>link below............The link to THMotorsports has the best price I ha= ve found on the 9.8 lb flywheel......The=0A>photo on their page is not the = Rotary 9.8 lb version...........=A0=0A>=A0=0A>http://www2.advancedclutch.co= m/products/xact_flywheels.aspx=0A>=A0=0A>=A0=0A>http://thmotorsports.com/ac= t/act_flywheel_prolite/600140/i-47718.aspx=0A>=0A>Kelly Troyer=0A>"DYKE DEL= TA JD2" (Eventually)=0A>"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A>"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A>"MIST= RAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A>"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A>=0A>=0A>From: = Kelly Troyer =0A>To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 12:34 PM=0A>Subject: [FlyR= otary] Re: Ok Here are the important flywheel measurements=0A>=0A>=0A>Dave = and All,=0A>=A0=0A>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Sounds encourageing............= ...Replacing the starter with turbo model would seem to be=0A>least expensi= ve and safer than adding additional ring gear + welding..............I also= echo what=0A>Bill and Bobby have said concerning the Al Wick fix and getti= ng Tracy's thoughts about cause=0A>of problem and perhaps need for periodic= inspection and/or rubber=A0isolator replacement........=A0=0A>=0A>Kelly Tr= oyer=0A>"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A>"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A>"RWS"_RD1C= /EC2/EM2=0A>"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A>"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo= =0A>=0A>=0A>From: David Leonard =0A>To: Rotary motors = in aircraft =0A>Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 = 11:41 PM=0A>Subject: [FlyRotary] Ok Here are the important flywheel measure= ments=0A>=0A>=0A>I finally got to the hangar and measured out my S5 turbo f= lywheel and the remains of my S5 flexplate.=A0 The results are very encoura= ging, even as good as the possibly could be to make the swap, but I only ha= d ten min at the hangar before I had to leave to pick up my daughter from d= aycare, so they are one try and slightly sloppy... I make no guarantees.=A0= The height measurements of the flex plate were particularly suspect becaus= e, well, mine is all warped and broken.=0A>=0A>Ring Gear Diameter - Perfect= fit.=A0 As we suspected, same size, same tooth spacing.=0A>=0A>Ring Gear F= ore-Aft Placement - As measured from the underside of the big nut. (for all= further reference, aft means aft in the CAR).=A0 The flex plate puts the a= ft side of the ring gear 1.290 inches from the front of the big nut. The fl= ywheel puts it 0.913.=A0 So the flex plate puts the ring gear (appx) 0.377 = in. further aft.=A0 This is actually fortuitous because it just so happens = that the ring gear thickness is .365 ...=A0=A0=A0 So all we have to do to f= ix the discrepancy is weld and extra ring gears onto to the flywheel ring g= ear and there will be teeth that the starter can reach:(bottom of the page.= . the cost $80)=0A>http://mazdatrix.com/flywheel.htm=0A>It may also be poss= ible to fix the discrepancy by changing the starter... will look into that.= =0A>=0A>Damper Plate Placement - On the flywheel, the mounting surface is p= roud (or aft) of the ring gear.=A0 On the flex plate, the mounting surface = is recessed (or forward) from the ring gear. And it all pretty much works o= ut.=A0 That position on the flywheel will vary somewhat depending on which = flywheel you have and how much wear you have on the clutch slip surface. Bu= t on my (I assume well-worn) flywheel the placement was 0.965 while the fle= x plate was 0.950.=A0 Pretty damn close and given measurement error it migh= t me meant to be right on.=A0 Or, any difference could be made up by trimmi= ng down the spline on the damper plate or removing or adding spacers betwee= n the two.=0A>=0A>So in my mind, a flywheel is the way to go.=A0 Stout, eas= y to get, pick your weight, only mods seem to be drilling the mounting hole= s and welding on a second gear ring.=0A>=0A>-- =0A>David Leonard=0A>=0A>Tur= bo Rotary RV-6 N4VY=0A>http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net=0A>http://RotaryRoster.= net=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> --0-183008425-1310876316=:32684 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dave and All,
 
   &n= bsp;     Just verified your 0.913 measurement from the = eccentric shaft nut face of the rear counterweight
to the rear (aft) fa= ce of the "ACT" 13.8 lb flywheel starter ring gear.............Waiting on t= he 93-95 Turbo
starter to see if it= has a longer housing and will engage the flywheel ring gear..........
 
   &n= bsp;     After inspecting this flywheel I believe that = with the help of my CCM (Cheap Chinese Mill) t= hat it
will.be possible to = whittle this thing down to under eight lbs..............I have no need for = the thick clutch
friction surface&nbs= p;and believe milling several large holes around this area  = will not sacrifice any strength
as it is severely ov= erbuilt for the loads we will put on it in an aircraft...........We will se= e............
 
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE D= ELTA JD2" (Eventually)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM= 2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

From:= David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@l= ancaironline.net>
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2011 5:05 PM
= Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ok Here ar= e the important flywheel measurements

Good work Kelly.

I would assume that your ne= w flywheel would put the ring gear right where the stock flywheel puts it..= and that would be about .365 further from the gear drive.  I'm not su= re that a turbo starter is going to fix our problems with that distance.&nb= sp; What we need is just a starter that extends further, but is otherwise u= nchanged.  Looking at the pictures online= , the first thing I notice is that the solenoid is mounted on the oppisite side of the gear opening from the one we cur= rently use.  Even if that will not interfere with anything else under = your cowl, it makes me suspicous that it may = be mounted the other way around - and consequently turn in the opposite dir= ection.  But I don't know that it won't work..  waiting to get me= asurements from you on that starter :-)

If it dosent fit, another option besides welding on anot= her ring gear might be to trim down the mounting wings on the current start= er and make a recess in the adapter plate in order to extend the reach of t= he gear enough to engage.

--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary R= V-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.nethttp:/= /RotaryRoster.net


One option if it does not work

On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 2:21 PM, Kell= y Troyer <keltro@att.net>= wrote:
Dave and All,
 
          Ok Dave the "ACT" "Streetlite<= /SPAN>" 13.8 lb flywheel was just delivered and I am in process of taking
your measurements to see where we stand................This flyw= heel is a thing of beauty (to a RotorHead)
and my RD1C drive plate will bolt to it with no problem (through= drill and spotface the rear of the flywheel<= /SPAN>
because it has a slight taper in that area).............I just h= ave to verify just where the RD1C drive splines
will be positioned (fore and aft) on the input shaft compared to= the RX7 flexplate.............The clutch pla= te
friction area is slightly raised (about 0.065) above the clutch = mount area and I would probably take it
down tto the clutch level (probabl= y not necessary but would reduce weight slightly.............I have a 93-95=
Turbo starter on the way (should take care of starter mesh probl= em)..............If you are interested I can
guide you to another 93-95 starter (used $49.00 with/shipping) i= f it is still for sale.............
        One other thing at th= is time..............The lighter 9.8 lb version may be usable but it is lis= ted as 116
ring gear teeth and I have not found out what its diameter is an= d what starter would be used with it......
        I suspect it may be t= he diameter of the NA 13B flywheels and may use the 86-91 NA manual tr= ans
starter............You need to talk to the manufacturer.........= .They are in Lancaster, Calif............The 9.8 lb
version is a little more expensive due to more extensive machine= work to reduce weight.............See the
link below............The link to THMotor= sports has the best price I have found on the 9.8 lb flywheel......<= VAR>The
photo on their page is not the Rotary 9.8 lb version...........&= nbsp;
 
 
 
 
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE = DELTA JD2" (Eventually)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/E= M2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

From:<= /SPAN> Kelly Troyer <keltro@att.net><= BR>To: Rotary motors in air= craft <flyrotary@lanca= ironline.net>
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 12:34 PM
S= ubject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ok Here ar= e the important flywheel measurements

Dave and All,
 
         Sounds encourageing...............Replacing the starter with= turbo model would seem to be
least expensive and safer than adding additional ring gear + wel= ding..............I also echo what
Bill and Bobby have said concerning the Al Wick fix and getting = Tracy's thoughts about cause
of problem and perhaps need for periodic inspection and/or rubbe= r isolator replacement........ 
 
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE = DELTA JD2" (Eventually)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/E= M2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

From:<= /SPAN> David Leonard <wdleonard@gm= ail.com>
To: Rota= ry motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Ok<= /SPAN> Here are the important flywheel measurements

I finally got to the hangar and measured out my S5 turbo flywheel and = the remains of my S5 flexplate.  The res= ults are very encouraging, even as good as the possibly could be to make th= e swap, but I only had ten min at the hangar before I had to leave to pick = up my daughter from daycare, so they are one try and slightly sloppy... I m= ake no guarantees.  The height measurements of the flex plate were par= ticularly suspect because, well, mine is all warped and broken.

R= ing Gear Diameter - Perfect fit.  As we suspected, same size, same= tooth spacing.

Ring Gear Fore-Aft Placement - As measured fr= om the underside of the big nut. (for all further reference, aft means aft = in the CAR).  The flex plate puts the aft side of the ring gear 1.290 = inches from the front of the big nut. The flywheel puts it 0.913.  So = the flex plate puts the ring gear (appx) 0.377 in. further aft.  This is actually fortuitous because it just s= o happens that the ring gear thickness is .365 ...    So all= we have to do to fix the discrepancy is weld and extra ring gears onto to = the flywheel ring gear and there will be teeth that the starter can reach:(= bottom of the page.. the cost $80)
http://mazdatrix.com/flywheel.htm
It may also be possible to fix the discrepancy by changing the starte= r... will look into that.

Damper Plate Placement - On the fly= wheel, the mounting surface is proud (or aft) of the ring gear.  On th= e flex plate, the mounting surface is recessed (or forward) from the ring g= ear. And it all pretty much works out.  That position on the flywheel = will vary somewhat depending on which flywheel you have and how much wear y= ou have on the clutch slip surface. But on my (I assume well-worn) flywheel the placement was 0.965 while the flex plate was 0.950.  Pre= tty damn close and given measurement error it might me meant to be right on= .  Or, any difference could be made up by trimming down the spline on = the damper plate or removing or adding spacers between the two.

So i= n my mind, a flywheel is the way to go.  Stout, easy to get, pick your= weight, only mods seem to be drilling the mounting holes and welding on a = second gear ring.

--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryR= oster.net




=






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