X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-fx0-f42.google.com ([209.85.161.42] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.0) with ESMTPS id 5053859 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 16 Jul 2011 12:54:06 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.161.42; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by fxe23 with SMTP id 23so3552141fxe.1 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2011 09:53:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=8xptiHXQe7P+NGmuiHWiW677IioBFiudveRatdSJMIM=; b=SGjhgVtTzcZFC4GAln7MsViRwmCck/FXWSd3musVnyPcykR93eCRPyZEGtNLwhgmTV j1F7uuV3oUqSHA5j5DZ0dyZefguEjYSdKmNUD8pDYWxt3EXu69q3PncDwCCYYJHaOEbl TdArJFPe0vmOD1XSA/FvPF+3jO1m0MysBFXxQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.27.71 with SMTP id h7mr7249566fac.142.1310835208662; Sat, 16 Jul 2011 09:53:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.73.208 with HTTP; Sat, 16 Jul 2011 09:53:28 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 11:53:28 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Flex Plate Failure - Improvements From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001517493c24f8afad04a8329aba --001517493c24f8afad04a8329aba Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill, TIG welding out near the ring gear would create one incredibly strong assembly. BTW, it weighs a mere 6.8#. Mark On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 11:24 AM, Bill Bradburry wrote: > ** ** ** > > Regardless of the method used, you will discover that those teeth are har= d! > And there are many of them!**** > > ** ** > > I also think you will need to spot weld or something the two plates > together so that they become one in order for this to work. Especially > since the rubber bushings allow the bolts to wiggle? side to side, puttin= g > opposite forces on the two plates.**** > > ** ** > > Bill B**** > ------------------------------ > > *From:* **Rotary motors in aircraft** [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net= ] > *On Behalf Of *Kelly Troyer > *Sent:* Saturday, July 16, 2011 12:06 PM > *To:* **Rotary motors in aircraft** > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Flex Plate Failure - Improvements**** > > ** ** > > Mark and All,**** > > **** > > In the interest of maintaining flexplate balance I would probably > rig up some way**** > > to grind the ring gear tooth bevel with a tool post grinder perhaps eithe= r > on the lathe**** > > or milling machine..........I would bet your friend Bob D. could come up > with a method**** > > to do this...................<:) **** > > **** > > Kelly Troyer > *"DYKE DELTA JD2"** **(Eventually)***** > > "13B ROTARY"_ Engine > "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 > "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold**** > > "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo**** > > ** ** > > *From:* Mark Steitle > *To:* **Rotary motors in aircraft** > *Sent:* Saturday, July 16, 2011 9:04 AM > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Flex Plate Failure - Improvements**** > > Bill, **** > > ** ** > > That's a good point. The 20B flexplate, which appears to be the same as > the Renesis, has a small bevel on the engine side of each tooth, 180* > opposite of the 13B flexplate. My thought is that this could be duplicat= ed > using a dremmel or die grinder.**** > > ** ** > > Mark S. **** > > On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 8:39 AM, **Bill Bradburry** < > bbradburry@bellsouth.net> wrote:**** > > The RX-8 flywheel/flexplate is designed to have the starter gear enter fr= om > the front as related to the engine. The RX-7 has the starter entering fr= om > the rear as related to the engine. As a result the RX-8 flywheel will no= t > work with the RX-7 starter. That is my opinion as I remember the layout= . > I am willing to stand corrected by more knowledgeable folks.**** > > **** > > Bill B**** > > **** > > *From:* **Rotary motors in aircraft** [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net= ] > *On Behalf Of *****Tracy**** > *Sent:* Friday, July 15, 2011 2:41 PM > *To:* **Rotary motors in aircraft** > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Flex Plate Failure - Improvements**** > > **** > > I'm still in analysis mode on this myself. > > So far the possibilities are: > > 1. The flex plate may have been warped when installed ( I bought several > that were) I think the standard should be close to zero runout or wobble= on > the flexplate in view of this failure. > > 2. The flexplate could have had cracks when installed (I also bought > several that had cracks and they were not visible unless you looked close= ly) > > 3. The dang things (RX-7 flexplates) are not strong enough for boosted > 13Bs or 20Bs. > > I do NOT think the problem is fore & aft travel of the input shaft. The > RD-1x drives have had thrust bearings from day one. There is no thrust l= oad > at all on the damper, flexplate or crankshaft imposed by the drive. Thi= s > was not the case with the Ross drive I used at first. > > I have over 1000 hours on the same flexplate on my NA 13B. I have only 5= 5 > hours on the 20B. But I'll be checking both. I did inspect both > flexplates VERY carefully before installing. > > If I found that a change were necessary, I would consider two > possibilities. > > 1. Use a modified aluminum racing flywheel used with an auto > counterweight. (Or possibly a lightweight steel one if there is such a > thing) > > 2. Use an RX-8 flexplate with an adapter plate made of aluminum or steel > sheet to go between the flexplate and damper. The RX-8 version looks > stronger than the RX-7. I briefly studied this when good RX-7 flexplates > were getting hard to find. I did not develop a formal procedure for doi= ng > this but it looked like it would be pretty easy. Anybody with spare time > out there want to take a closer look? Hint: The damper bolt pattern wo= uld > be offset 45 degrees from the RX-8 torque converter bolt pattern. > > Tracy Crook, RWS**** > > On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Bobby J. Hughes wrote= : > **** > > Bill summed up what I=92ve been thinking the last few days. I=92m not cha= nging > anything until ****Tracy**** makes a recommendation. It could be fore and > aft movement on the shaft, flex plate out of round, worn rubber isolators= or > a combination of all these items. We may need a scheduled maintenance pla= n > to replace items like the rubber isolators or other items that wear and > loosen tolerances.**** > > **** > > **** > > I will however be inspecting for this problem before most flights. **** > > **** > > Bobby Hughes**** > > (playing with fiberglass again)**** > > *From:* **Rotary motors in aircraft** [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net= ] > *On Behalf Of ***Bill Bradburry** > *Sent:* Friday, July 15, 2011 10:03 AM > *To:* **Rotary motors in aircraft** > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Ok Here are the important flywheel measurement= s > **** > > **** > > **** > > David,**** > > **** > > I can=92t help but think that you may be fixing something that is not > broken. I realize that the flexplate came apart on your plane, but that > doesn=92t mean that the flexplate is the cause of the problem. That flex= plate > holds up quite well in the car with a heavy torque converter attached to > it. Think of the forces when a car under heavy acceleration changes gear= ! > As long as the forces are along the plane of the plate it is very strong. > Not so much in the forward/rearward directions. In fact that would cause > metal fatigue and cause it to break just like yours did. I think that wh= at > ever is causing the endplay is what you should be looking at. I suspect > that if you check out the transmission on the car you will find that the > endplay of the input shaft is controlled by thrust bearings or some such > device. ****Lynn**** may know the answer to this??**** > > **** > > That msg from Al Wick really resonates with me. ****Tracy**** had to > install a thrust bearing to prevent the drive shaft from hitting the bott= om > of the pilot bearing and causing an eccentric shaft failure on the engine= . > Maybe you now need to add a cage similar to what Al was discussing that w= ill > trap the shaft end play completely. That, to me, makes more sense than > adding a bigger flywheel. If you strengthen the weak spot, you will then > discover where the next weakest spot is because that will be the next > failure! **** > > **** > > This is a real opportunity for you and the rest of us with the same drive= . > Please study this a little more before you begin the fix!**** > > **** > > Bill B**** > > **** > > *From:* **Rotary motors in aircraft** [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net= ] > *On Behalf Of *David Leonard > *Sent:* Friday, July 15, 2011 12:42 AM > *To:* **Rotary motors in aircraft** > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Ok Here are the important flywheel measurements***= * > > **** > > I finally got to the hangar and measured out my S5 turbo flywheel and the > remains of my S5 flexplate. The results are very encouraging, even as go= od > as the possibly could be to make the swap, but I only had ten min at the > hangar before I had to leave to pick up my daughter from daycare, so they > are one try and slightly sloppy... I make no guarantees. The height > measurements of the flex plate were particularly suspect because, well, m= ine > is all warped and broken. > > *Ring Gear Diameter* - Perfect fit. As we suspected, same size, same > tooth spacing. > > *Ring Gear Fore-Aft Placement* - As measured from the underside of the bi= g > nut. (for all further reference, aft means aft in the CAR). The flex pla= te > puts the aft side of the ring gear 1.290 inches from the front of the big > nut. The flywheel puts it 0.913. So the flex plate puts the ring gear > (appx) 0.377 in. further aft. This is actually fortuitous because it jus= t > so happens that the ring gear thickness is .365 ... So all we have to = do > to fix the discrepancy is weld and extra ring gears onto to the flywheel > ring gear and there will be teeth that the starter can reach:(bottom of t= he > page.. the cost $80) > http://mazdatrix.com/flywheel.htm > It may also be possible to fix the discrepancy by changing the starter... > will look into that. > > *Damper Plate Placement* - On the flywheel, the mounting surface is proud > (or aft) of the ring gear. On the flex plate, the mounting surface is > recessed (or forward) from the ring gear. And it all pretty much works ou= t. > That position on the flywheel will vary somewhat depending on which flywh= eel > you have and how much wear you have on the clutch slip surface. But on my= (I > assume well-worn) flywheel the placement was 0.965 while the flex plate w= as > 0.950. Pretty damn close and given measurement error it might me meant t= o > be right on. Or, any difference could be made up by trimming down the > spline on the damper plate or removing or adding spacers between the two. > > So in my mind, a flywheel is the way to go. Stout, easy to get, pick you= r > weight, only mods seem to be drilling the mounting holes and welding on a > second gear ring. > > -- > David Leonard > > Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY > http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net > http://RotaryRoster.net **** > > **** > > ** ** > > ** ** > --001517493c24f8afad04a8329aba Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill,=A0

TIG welding out near the ring gear would create= one incredibly strong assembly. =A0BTW, it weighs a mere 6.8#. =A0

Mark

On Sat, Jul 16, 20= 11 at 11:24 AM, Bill Bradburry <bbradburry@bellsouth.net> wrote:

Regardless of the = method used, you will discover that those teeth are hard! And there are many of them!

=A0<= /span>

I also think you w= ill need to spot weld or something the two plates together so that they become one in order for this= to work.=A0 Especially since the rubber bushings allow the bolts to wiggle? side to side, putting opposite forces on the two plates.

=A0<= /span>

Bill B

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:fl= yrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Kelly Troyer
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 201= 1 12:06 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fle= x Plate Failure - Improvements

=A0

Mark and All,

=A0

=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 In the interest of maintaining flexplate balance I would probably rig up so= me way

to grind the ring gear tooth=A0bevel with a tool post grinder perhaps either o= n the lathe

or milling machine..........I would bet your friend Bob D.=A0could come up with a method

=

to do this...................<:)=A0

=A0

Kelly Troyer
"= ;DYKE DELTA JD2" <= b>(Eventually)

"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

=A0

<= font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial">From:= Mark Steitle <msteitl= e@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 201= 1 9:04 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fle= x Plate Failure - Improvements

Bill,=A0

=A0

That's a good point. =A0The 20B flexplate, which appears to be the same as the Renesis, has a small bevel on the engine side of each tooth, 180* opposite of the 13= B flexplate. =A0My thought is that this could be duplicated using a dremmel o= r die grinder.

=A0

Mark S. =A0=A0

On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 8:39 AM, Bill Bradburry <bbradburry@bellsouth.net> wrote:

The RX-8 flywheel/flexplate is designed to have the starter gear enter from the fron= t as related to the engine.=A0 The RX-7 has the starter entering from the rear a= s related to the engine.=A0 As a result the RX-8 flywheel will not work with the RX-7 starter.=A0=A0 That is my opinion as I remember the layout.=A0 I am willing to stand corrected by more knowledgeable folks.<= /span>

=A0

Bill B

=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Tracy
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 = 2:41 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fle= x Plate Failure - Improvements

=A0

I'm still in analysis mode on this myself.

So far the possibilities are:

1. The flex plate may have been warped when installed=A0 ( I bought several that were)=A0 I think the standard should be close to zero runout or wobble on the flexplate in view of this failure.

2.=A0 The flexplate could have had cracks when installed=A0 (I also bought several that had cracks and they were not visible unless you looked closely)

3.=A0 The dang things (RX-7 flexplates) are not strong enough for boosted 13Bs or 20Bs.=A0

I do NOT think the problem is fore & aft travel of the input shaft.=A0 The RD-1x drives have had thrust bearings from day one.=A0 There is no thrust load at all on the damper, flexplate or crankshaft imposed by the drive.=A0=A0 This was not the case with the Ross drive I used at first.

I have over 1000 hours on the same flexplate on my NA 13B.=A0 I have only 5= 5 hours on the 20B.=A0=A0 But I'll be checking both.=A0 I did inspect both flexplates VERY carefully before installing.=A0

If I found that a change were necessary, I would consider two possibilities= .

1.=A0 Use a modified aluminum racing flywheel used with an auto counterweight.=A0 (Or possibly a lightweight steel one if there is such a thing)

2.=A0 Use an RX-8 flexplate with an adapter plate made of aluminum or steel sheet to go between the flexplate and damper.=A0 The RX-8 version looks stronger than the RX-7. I briefly studied this when good RX-7 flexplates we= re getting hard to find. =A0 I did not develop a formal procedure for doing this but it looked like it would be pretty easy.=A0 Anybody with spare time out there want to take a closer look?=A0 Hint: =A0 The damper bolt pattern would be offset 45 degrees from the RX-8 torque converter bolt patt= ern.
=A0
Tracy Crook,=A0=A0 RWS

On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Bobby J. Hughes <bhughes@qnsi.net> wrote:

Bill summed up what I=92ve been thinking the last few days. I=92m not changing anything until Tracy makes a recommendation. It could be fore and aft movement on the shaft, fle= x plate out of round, worn rubber isolators or a combination of all these ite= ms. We may need a scheduled maintenance plan to replace items like the rubber isolators or other items that wear and loosen tolerances.<= /p>

=A0

=A0

=A0I will however be inspecting for this problem before most flights.

=A0

Bobby Hughes

=A0(playing with fiberglass again)

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 = 10:03 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ok = Here are the important flywheel measurements=

=A0

=A0

David,

=A0

I can=92t help but think that you may be fixing something that is not broken.=A0 I realize tha= t the flexplate came apart on your plane, but that doesn=92t mean that the flexplate is the cause of the problem.=A0 That flexplate holds up quite wel= l in the car with a heavy torque converter attached to it.=A0 Think of the forces when a car under heavy acceleration changes gear! As long as the for= ces are along the plane of the plate it is very strong.=A0 Not so much in the forward/rearward directions.=A0 In fact that would cause metal fatigue and cause it to break just like yours did.=A0 I think that what ever is causing the endplay is what you should be looking at.=A0 I suspect that if you chec= k out the transmission on the car you will find that the endplay of the input shaft is controlled by thrust bearings or some such device.=A0 Lynn may know the answer to this??

=A0

That msg from Al Wick really resonates with me.=A0 Tracy had to install a thrust bearing to prevent the drive shaft from hitting the bottom of the pilot bearing and causing an eccentric shaft failure on the engine.=A0 Maybe you now need to add a cage similar to what Al was discussing that will trap the shaft end play completely.=A0 That, to me, makes more sense than adding a bigger flywheel.=A0 If you strengthen the weak spot, you will then discover where the next weakest spot is because th= at will be the next failure!=A0

=A0

This is a real opportunity for you and the rest of us with the same drive.=A0 Please study this a little more before you begin the fix!

=A0

Bill B

=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of David Leonard
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 = 12:42 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Ok Here= are the important flywheel measurements

=A0

I finally got to the hangar and measured out my S5 turbo flywheel and the remains of my S= 5 flexplate.=A0 The results are very encouraging, even as good as the possibl= y could be to make the swap, but I only had ten min at the hangar before I ha= d to leave to pick up my daughter from daycare, so they are one try and slightly sloppy... I make no guarantees.=A0 The height measurements of the flex plat= e were particularly suspect because, well, mine is all warped and broken.

Ring Gear Diameter - Perfect fit.=A0 As we suspected, same size, same tooth spacing.

Ring Gear Fore-Aft Placement= - As measured from the underside of the big nut. (for all further reference, aft means aft in the CAR).=A0 The flex plate puts the aft side of the ring gear 1.290 inches from the front of the big nut. The flywheel puts it 0.913.=A0 So the flex plate puts the ring gear (appx) 0.377 in. further aft.=A0 This is actually fortuitous because it just so happens that the ring gear thickn= ess is .365 ...=A0=A0=A0 So all we have to do to fix the discrepancy is weld and extra ring gears onto to the flywheel ring gear and there will be teeth that the starter can reach:(bottom of the page.. the cost $80)
http://mazd= atrix.com/flywheel.htm
It may also be possible to fix the discrepancy by changing the starter... w= ill look into that.

Damper Plate Placement - On = the flywheel, the mounting surface is proud (or aft) of the ring gear.=A0 On th= e flex plate, the mounting surface is recessed (or forward) from the ring gea= r. And it all pretty much works out.=A0 That position on the flywheel will var= y somewhat depending on which flywheel you have and how much wear you have on= the clutch slip surface. But on my (I assume well-worn) flywheel the placement = was 0.965 while the flex plate was 0.950.=A0 Pretty damn close and given measurement error it might me meant to be right on.=A0 Or, any difference could be made up by trimming down the spline on the damper plate or removin= g or adding spacers between the two.

So in my mind, a flywheel is the way to go.=A0 Stout, easy to get, pick you= r weight, only mods seem to be drilling the mounting holes and welding on a second gear ring.

--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.Rot= aryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.= net<= /u>

=A0

=A0

=A0


--001517493c24f8afad04a8329aba--