X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-fx0-f42.google.com ([209.85.161.42] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.0) with ESMTPS id 5053848 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 16 Jul 2011 12:40:34 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.161.42; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by fxe23 with SMTP id 23so3542544fxe.1 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2011 09:39:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=/ThViJl7XCTf9vwShE7GggQbko+y4DHVa/pdp0py4nQ=; b=puwkoczOXrn4oTJ2FIhnrQy7ex6WEEc6A9U6g5dWv6lB2HCQxkht4NRppU+7tAwgIB JB6IIjcmtiuxZHFlk+svL5h7jPRbZDkDRaS4LjUrleY/5VCAnP6KZQShgNcPjGlP71Dp LUO7TEozdtSAgAFj63GoF41/5oJNnREVpbhj4= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.144.129 with SMTP id z1mr7474390fau.57.1310834398314; Sat, 16 Jul 2011 09:39:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.73.208 with HTTP; Sat, 16 Jul 2011 09:39:58 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 11:39:58 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Flex Plate Failure - Improvements From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=002354530ec4abc18d04a8326ae3 --002354530ec4abc18d04a8326ae3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kelly, Agree on the post grinder method. That would ensure you maintain balance o= n the flexplate. On the other hand, if you're planning on having it balanced prior to install, you could use a dremmel. I have manage to mate the 20B/Renesis and 13B flexplates. I'll post a picture momentarily. Mark On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 11:06 AM, Kelly Troyer wrote: > Mark and All, > > In the interest of maintaining flexplate balance I would probably > rig up some way > to grind the ring gear tooth bevel with a tool post grinder perhaps eithe= r > on the lathe > or milling machine..........I would bet your friend Bob D. could come up > with a method > to do this...................<:) > > Kelly Troyer > *"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)* > "13B ROTARY"_ Engine > "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 > "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold > "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo > > *From:* Mark Steitle > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Saturday, July 16, 2011 9:04 AM > > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Flex Plate Failure - Improvements > > Bill, > > That's a good point. The 20B flexplate, which appears to be the same as > the Renesis, has a small bevel on the engine side of each tooth, 180* > opposite of the 13B flexplate. My thought is that this could be duplicat= ed > using a dremmel or die grinder. > > Mark S. > > On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 8:39 AM, Bill Bradburry wrote: > > ****** > The RX-8 flywheel/flexplate is designed to have the starter gear enter > from the front as related to the engine. The RX-7 has the starter enteri= ng > from the rear as related to the engine. As a result the RX-8 flywheel wi= ll > not work with the RX-7 starter. That is my opinion as I remember the > layout. I am willing to stand corrected by more knowledgeable folks.**** > ** ** > Bill B**** > ** ** > *From:* **Rotary motors in aircraft** [mailto: > flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *On Behalf Of *****Tracy**** > *Sent:* Friday, July 15, 2011 2:41 PM > > *To:* **Rotary motors in aircraft** > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Flex Plate Failure - Improvements**** > ** ** > I'm still in analysis mode on this myself. > > So far the possibilities are: > > 1. The flex plate may have been warped when installed ( I bought several > that were) I think the standard should be close to zero runout or wobble= on > the flexplate in view of this failure. > > 2. The flexplate could have had cracks when installed (I also bought > several that had cracks and they were not visible unless you looked close= ly) > > 3. The dang things (RX-7 flexplates) are not strong enough for boosted > 13Bs or 20Bs. > > I do NOT think the problem is fore & aft travel of the input shaft. The > RD-1x drives have had thrust bearings from day one. There is no thrust l= oad > at all on the damper, flexplate or crankshaft imposed by the drive. Thi= s > was not the case with the Ross drive I used at first. > > I have over 1000 hours on the same flexplate on my NA 13B. I have only 5= 5 > hours on the 20B. But I'll be checking both. I did inspect both > flexplates VERY carefully before installing. > > If I found that a change were necessary, I would consider two > possibilities. > > 1. Use a modified aluminum racing flywheel used with an auto > counterweight. (Or possibly a lightweight steel one if there is such a > thing) > > 2. Use an RX-8 flexplate with an adapter plate made of aluminum or steel > sheet to go between the flexplate and damper. The RX-8 version looks > stronger than the RX-7. I briefly studied this when good RX-7 flexplates > were getting hard to find. I did not develop a formal procedure for doi= ng > this but it looked like it would be pretty easy. Anybody with spare time > out there want to take a closer look? Hint: The damper bolt pattern wo= uld > be offset 45 degrees from the RX-8 torque converter bolt pattern. > > Tracy Crook, RWS**** > On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Bobby J. Hughes > wrote:**** > Bill summed up what I=92ve been thinking the last few days. I=92m not > changing anything until ****Tracy**** makes a recommendation. It could be > fore and aft movement on the shaft, flex plate out of round, worn rubber > isolators or a combination of all these items. We may need a scheduled > maintenance plan to replace items like the rubber isolators or other item= s > that wear and loosen tolerances.**** > **** > **** > I will however be inspecting for this problem before most flights. **** > **** > Bobby Hughes**** > (playing with fiberglass again)**** > *From:* **Rotary motors in aircraft** [mailto: > flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *On Behalf Of ***Bill Bradburry** > *Sent:* Friday, July 15, 2011 10:03 AM > *To:* **Rotary motors in aircraft** > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Ok Here are the important flywheel measurement= s > **** > **** > **** > David,**** > **** > I can=92t help but think that you may be fixing something that is not > broken. I realize that the flexplate came apart on your plane, but that > doesn=92t mean that the flexplate is the cause of the problem. That flex= plate > holds up quite well in the car with a heavy torque converter attached to > it. Think of the forces when a car under heavy acceleration changes gear= ! > As long as the forces are along the plane of the plate it is very strong. > Not so much in the forward/rearward directions. In fact that would cause > metal fatigue and cause it to break just like yours did. I think that wh= at > ever is causing the endplay is what you should be looking at. I suspect > that if you check out the transmission on the car you will find that the > endplay of the input shaft is controlled by thrust bearings or some such > device. ****Lynn**** may know the answer to this??**** > **** > That msg from Al Wick really resonates with me. ****Tracy**** had to > install a thrust bearing to prevent the drive shaft from hitting the bott= om > of the pilot bearing and causing an eccentric shaft failure on the engine= . > Maybe you now need to add a cage similar to what Al was discussing that w= ill > trap the shaft end play completely. That, to me, makes more sense than > adding a bigger flywheel. If you strengthen the weak spot, you will then > discover where the next weakest spot is because that will be the next > failure! **** > **** > This is a real opportunity for you and the rest of us with the same drive= . > Please study this a little more before you begin the fix!**** > **** > Bill B**** > **** > *From:* **Rotary motors in aircraft** [mailto: > flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *On Behalf Of *David Leonard > *Sent:* Friday, July 15, 2011 12:42 AM > *To:* **Rotary motors in aircraft** > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Ok Here are the important flywheel measurements***= * > **** > I finally got to the hangar and measured out my S5 turbo flywheel and the > remains of my S5 flexplate. The results are very encouraging, even as go= od > as the possibly could be to make the swap, but I only had ten min at the > hangar before I had to leave to pick up my daughter from daycare, so they > are one try and slightly sloppy... I make no guarantees. The height > measurements of the flex plate were particularly suspect because, well, m= ine > is all warped and broken. > > *Ring Gear Diameter* - Perfect fit. As we suspected, same size, same > tooth spacing. > > *Ring Gear Fore-Aft Placement* - As measured from the underside of the bi= g > nut. (for all further reference, aft means aft in the CAR). The flex pla= te > puts the aft side of the ring gear 1.290 inches from the front of the big > nut. The flywheel puts it 0.913. So the flex plate puts the ring gear > (appx) 0.377 in. further aft. This is actually fortuitous because it jus= t > so happens that the ring gear thickness is .365 ... So all we have to = do > to fix the discrepancy is weld and extra ring gears onto to the flywheel > ring gear and there will be teeth that the starter can reach:(bottom of t= he > page.. the cost $80) > http://mazdatrix.com/flywheel.htm > It may also be possible to fix the discrepancy by changing the starter... > will look into that. > > *Damper Plate Placement* - On the flywheel, the mounting surface is proud > (or aft) of the ring gear. On the flex plate, the mounting surface is > recessed (or forward) from the ring gear. And it all pretty much works ou= t. > That position on the flywheel will vary somewhat depending on which flywh= eel > you have and how much wear you have on the clutch slip surface. But on my= (I > assume well-worn) flywheel the placement was 0.965 while the flex plate w= as > 0.950. Pretty damn close and given measurement error it might me meant t= o > be right on. Or, any difference could be made up by trimming down the > spline on the damper plate or removing or adding spacers between the two. > > So in my mind, a flywheel is the way to go. Stout, easy to get, pick you= r > weight, only mods seem to be drilling the mounting holes and welding on a > second gear ring. > > -- > David Leonard > > Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY > http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net > http://RotaryRoster.net **** > ** ** > > > > > --002354530ec4abc18d04a8326ae3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Kelly,=A0

Agree on the post grinder metho= d. =A0That would ensure you maintain balance on the flexplate. =A0On the ot= her hand, if you're planning on having it balanced prior to install, yo= u could use a dremmel.=A0

I have manage to mate the 20B/Renesis and 13B flexplate= s. =A0I'll post a picture momentarily.

Mark


On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 = at 11:06 AM, Kelly Troyer <keltro@att.net> wrote:
Mark and All,
=A0
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 In the interest of maintaining flexplate bala= nce I would probably rig up some way
to grind the ring gear tooth=A0bevel with a tool post grinder pe= rhaps either on the lathe
or milling machine..........I would bet your friend= Bob D.=A0could come up with a method
to do this...................<:)=A0
=A0
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" = (Eventually)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
&quo= t;MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

From: Mark Steitle <= ;msteitle@gmail.com= >
To: Rotary motor= s in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Saturday, July 1= 6, 2011 9:04 AM

Su= bject: [FlyRotary] Re: Flex Plate Failure - Improvements

Bill,=A0

That's a good point. =A0The 20B flexplate, which appears to be the= same as the Renesis, has a small bevel on the engine side of each tooth, 1= 80* opposite of the 13B flexplate. =A0My thought is that this could be dupl= icated using a dremmel or die grinder.

Mark S. =A0=A0

On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 8:39 AM, Bill Bradburry <= bbradburry@bellsouth.net> wrote:
The RX-8 flywheel/flexplate is designe= d to have the starter gear enter from the front as related to the engine.= =A0 The RX-7 has the starter entering from the rear as related to the engin= e.=A0 As a result the RX-8 flywheel will not work with the RX-7 starter.=A0= =A0 That is my opinion as I remember the layout.=A0 I am willing to stand c= orrected by more knowledgeable folks.
=A0
Bill B
=A0
=A0
I'm still in analysis= mode on this myself.

So far the possibilities are:

1. The fl= ex plate may have been warped when installed=A0 ( I bought several that wer= e)=A0 I think the standard should be close to zero runout or wobble on the = flexplate in view of this failure.

2.=A0 The flexplate could have = had cracks when installed=A0 (I also bought several that had cracks and the= y were not visible unless you looked closely)

3.=A0 The dang things = (RX-7 flexplates) are not strong enough for boosted 13Bs or 20Bs.=A0

I do NOT think the problem is fore & aft travel of the input shaft.= =A0 The RD-1x drives have had thrust bearings from day one.=A0 There is no = thrust load at all on the damper, flexplate or crankshaft imposed by the dr= ive.=A0=A0 This was not the case with the Ross drive I used at first.

I have over 1000 hours on the same flex= plate on my NA 13B.=A0 I have only 55 hours on the 20B.=A0=A0 But I'll = be checking both.=A0 I did inspect both flexplates VERY carefully before in= stalling.=A0

If I found that a change were necessary, I would consider two possibili= ties.

1.=A0 Use a modified aluminum racing flywheel used with an au= to counterweight.=A0 (Or possibly a lightweight steel one if there is such = a thing)

2.=A0 Use an RX-8 flexplate with an adapter plate made of aluminum or s= teel sheet to go between the flexplate and damper.=A0 The RX-8 version look= s stronger than the RX-7. I briefly studied this when good RX-7 flexplates = were getting hard to find. =A0 I did not develop a formal procedure for doi= ng this but it looked like it would be pretty easy.=A0 Anybody with spare t= ime out there want to take a closer look?=A0 Hint: =A0 The damper bolt patt= ern would be offset 45 degrees from the RX-8 torque converter bolt pattern.=A0
Tracy Crook,=A0=A0 RWS
Bill summed up what I=92ve been thinki= ng the last few days. I=92m not changing anything until Tracy= makes a recommendation. It could be fore and aft movement on= the shaft, flex plate out of round, worn rubber isolators or a combination= of all these items. We may need a scheduled maintenance plan to replace it= ems like the rubber isolators or other items that wear and loosen tolerance= s.
=A0
=A0
=A0I will however be inspecting for th= is problem before most flights.
=A0
Bobby Hughes
=A0(playing with fiberglass again)
=A0
=A0
David,
=A0
I can=92t help but think that you may = be fixing something that is not broken.=A0 I realize that the flexplate cam= e apart on your plane, but that doesn=92t mean that the flexplate is the ca= use of the problem.=A0 That flexplate holds up quite well in the car with a= heavy torque converter attached to it.=A0 Think of the forces when a car u= nder heavy acceleration changes gear! As long as the forces are along the p= lane of the plate it is very strong.=A0 Not so much in the forward/rearward= directions.=A0 In fact that would cause metal fatigue and cause it to brea= k just like yours did.=A0 I think that what ever is causing the endplay is = what you should be looking at.=A0 I suspect that if you check out the trans= mission on the car you will find that the endplay of the input shaft is con= trolled by thrust bearings or some such device.=A0 Lynn may know the answ= er to this??
=A0
That msg from Al Wick really resonates= with me.=A0 Tracy had to install a thrust bear= ing to prevent the drive shaft from hitting the bottom of the pilot bearing= and causing an eccentric shaft failure on the engine.=A0 Maybe you now nee= d to add a cage similar to what Al was discussing that will trap the shaft = end play completely.=A0 That, to me, makes more sense than adding a bigger = flywheel.=A0 If you strengthen the weak spot, you will then discover where = the next weakest spot is because that will be the next failure!=A0 <= /font>
=A0
This is a real opportunity for you and= the rest of us with the same drive.=A0 Please study this a little more bef= ore you begin the fix!
=A0
Bill B
=A0
=A0
I finally got to the hangar and measured out my S5 turbo flywheel and th= e remains of my S5 flexplate.=A0 The results are very encouraging, even as = good as the possibly could be to make the swap, but I only had ten min at t= he hangar before I had to leave to pick up my daughter from daycare, so the= y are one try and slightly sloppy... I make no guarantees.=A0 The height me= asurements of the flex plate were particularly suspect because, well, mine = is all warped and broken.

Ring Gear Diameter - Per= fect fit.=A0 As we suspected, same size, same tooth spacing.

Ring Gear Fore-Aft Placement - As m= easured from the underside of the big nut. (for all further reference, aft = means aft in the CAR).=A0 The flex plate puts the aft side of the ring gear= 1.290 inches from the front of the big nut. The flywheel puts it 0.913.=A0 So th= e flex plate puts the ring gear (appx) 0.377 in. further aft.=A0 This is ac= tually fortuitous because it just so happens that the ring gear thickness i= s .365 ...=A0=A0=A0 So all we have to do to fix the discrepancy is weld and= extra ring gears onto to the flywheel ring gear and there will be teeth th= at the starter can reach:(bottom of the page.. the cost $80)
http://mazdatrix.com/flywheel.htm
It may also be possible to f= ix the discrepancy by changing the starter... will look into that.

<= b>Damper Plate Placement - On t= he flywheel, the mounting surface is proud (or aft) of the ring gear.=A0 On= the flex plate, the mounting surface is recessed (or forward) from the rin= g gear. And it all pretty much works out.=A0 That position on the flywheel will vary somewhat depending on which flywheel you have and how m= uch wear you have on the clutch slip surface. But on my (I assume well-worn= ) flywheel the placement was 0.965 while the flex plate was 0.950.=A0 Prett= y damn close and given measurement error it might me meant to be right on.= =A0 Or, any difference could be made up by trimming down the spline on the = damper plate or removing or adding spacers between the two.

So in my mind, a flywheel is the way to go.=A0 Stout, easy to get, pick= your weight, only mods seem to be drilling the mounting holes and welding = on a second gear ring.

--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryR= oster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net
=A0



=
--002354530ec4abc18d04a8326ae3--