X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nm23.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.44.150] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.0) with SMTP id 5053823 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 16 Jul 2011 12:06:53 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.44.150; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: from [98.139.44.98] by nm23.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Jul 2011 16:06:17 -0000 Received: from [98.139.44.65] by tm3.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Jul 2011 16:06:17 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1002.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Jul 2011 16:06:17 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 133536.7548.bm@omp1002.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 68878 invoked by uid 60001); 16 Jul 2011 16:06:17 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1310832376; bh=qgJgCHNvVf+CXwH/PYEjbvAzdiOXChZCoEtCzMMrX3U=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=gvwhxkSZro/1lSG99BJiuGgniffD2C7KD7t+xr/0phLcpJBAU/BDaL7fIzj32zVA3ZLC6uWG+Bd9ZJ9OI35EIzSyCiDtWVE3oY2895QrM+2qaaKJ8j77ugutua9+gb3GkKORZ5jZkDIPJ10QA0u6FRTzChv4odcKwvBQrSKyXuM= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=att.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=Dke+c/h8+yS7Be6hHogK8/8vKvLTtP4efBICFIpflAdhA9H5NBp71GRzj5GrjVsH3dGsRWU6sXJqNTimCAx6PbvIlce8d8bgVI0G4WdFvJHKiVQWLzrCTLq0+/1M5az8Y3PHZxPHVGY7oSMkhe03mvs0t6F1cXWKXpbepM8jB8Q=; X-YMail-OSG: e2Pg0E0VM1mEpcJEWci8FiMR3VHyt1nXylXrcio4k2Pzsln xieVnMzUzYhnVxlYY7texsFRO0oKEILHpu6NHU2nhfGziSequvYA323pp87O TLfc7gx.BvD6Hd0ld.loKvQh2_vErymhN7i6ir5lgUXPtrM4aE5MSBUM_7w6 d8X27isQJiN9h7b8Z.HurN7BVRJzpmaQJRSVUc_0FeZodZqhJG2I3jGdc58v AE4KUXbRlJ7z05FyEk4XxwwyDzv_rJbVayqA36QSVndeOyhFQ8u8tByhiGpF dNMsMS4Fhy_WTErjb_BHu4UuGckadwjspRv5kIwGKdfuO23CixlxRCLCHbUt 5Xx912FuFCPniUQ0JMi5YTn5nGT2MfKTw9JjOvNDgPSKwQwBdMf5pS_j6M7a 6uUSYW.0aOqn3kvKqJAbBWlV1stiqUV8_CHYiUxREfyWSHbK8Gla3VsNyMue SUXF3eC2A2oUJROqaLs.jsGYYeTuJ Received: from [208.114.39.18] by web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 16 Jul 2011 09:06:16 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.112.307740 References: Message-ID: <1310832376.63751.YahooMailNeo@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 09:06:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Kelly Troyer Reply-To: Kelly Troyer Subject: Re: Flex Plate Failure - Improvements To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-366487083-1310832376=:63751" --0-366487083-1310832376=:63751 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark and All,=0A=C2=A0=0A=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 In the intere= st of maintaining flexplate balance I would probably rig up some way=0Ato g= rind the ring gear tooth=C2=A0bevel with a tool post grinder perhaps either= on the lathe=0Aor milling machine..........I would bet your friend Bob D.= =C2=A0could come up with a method=0Ato do this...................<:)=C2=A0= =0A=0AKelly Troyer=0A"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engine= =0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A"TURBONETICS"_TO= 4E50 Turbo=0A=0AFrom: Mark Steitle =0ATo: Rotary motors= in aircraft =0ASent: Saturday, July 16, 2011 = 9:04 AM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: Flex Plate Failure - Improvements=0A=0A= =0ABill,=C2=A0 =0A=0AThat's a good point. =C2=A0The 20B flexplate, which ap= pears to be the same as the Renesis, has a small bevel on the engine side o= f each tooth, 180* opposite of the 13B flexplate. =C2=A0My thought is that = this could be duplicated using a dremmel or die grinder.=0A=0AMark S. =C2= =A0=C2=A0=0A=0A=0AOn Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 8:39 AM, Bill Bradburry wrote:=0A=0AThe RX-8 flywheel/flexplate is designed to ha= ve the starter gear enter from the front as related to the engine.=C2=A0 Th= e RX-7 has the starter entering from the rear as related to the engine.=C2= =A0 As a result the RX-8 flywheel will not work with the RX-7 starter.=C2= =A0=C2=A0 That is my opinion as I remember the layout.=C2=A0 I am willing t= o stand corrected by more knowledgeable folks.=0A>=C2=A0=0A>Bill B=0A>=C2= =A0=0A>From:Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Tracy=0A>Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 2:41 PM=0A>To: Rotary mot= ors in aircraft=0A>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Flex Plate Failure - Improvemen= ts=0A>=C2=A0=0A>I'm still in analysis mode on this myself.=0A>=0A>So far th= e possibilities are:=0A>=0A>1. The flex plate may have been warped when ins= talled=C2=A0 ( I bought several that were)=C2=A0 I think the standard shoul= d be close to zero runout or wobble on the flexplate in view of this failur= e.=0A>=0A>2.=C2=A0 The flexplate could have had cracks when installed=C2=A0= (I also bought several that had cracks and they were not visible unless yo= u looked closely)=0A>=0A>3.=C2=A0 The dang things (RX-7 flexplates) are not= strong enough for boosted 13Bs or 20Bs.=C2=A0 =0A>=0A>I do NOT think the p= roblem is fore & aft travel of the input shaft.=C2=A0 The RD-1x drives have= had thrust bearings from day one.=C2=A0 There is no thrust load at all on = the damper, flexplate or crankshaft imposed by the drive.=C2=A0=C2=A0 This = was not the case with the Ross drive I used at first.=0A>=0A>I have over 10= 00 hours on the same flexplate on my NA 13B.=C2=A0 I have only 55 hours on = the 20B.=C2=A0=C2=A0 But I'll be checking both.=C2=A0 I did inspect both fl= explates VERY carefully before installing.=C2=A0 =0A>=0A>If I found that a = change were necessary, I would consider two possibilities. =0A>=0A>1.=C2=A0= Use a modified aluminum racing flywheel used with an auto counterweight.= =C2=A0 (Or possibly a lightweight steel one if there is such a thing)=0A>= =0A>2.=C2=A0 Use an RX-8 flexplate with an adapter plate made of aluminum o= r steel sheet to go between the flexplate and damper.=C2=A0 The RX-8 versio= n looks stronger than the RX-7. I briefly studied this when good RX-7 flexp= lates were getting hard to find. =C2=A0 I did not develop a formal procedur= e for doing this but it looked like it would be pretty easy.=C2=A0 Anybody = with spare time out there want to take a closer look?=C2=A0 Hint: =C2=A0 Th= e damper bolt pattern would be offset 45 degrees from the RX-8 torque conve= rter bolt pattern.=0A>=C2=A0=0A>Tracy Crook,=C2=A0=C2=A0 RWS=0A>On Fri, Jul= 15, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Bobby J. Hughes wrote:=0A>Bill sum= med up what I=E2=80=99ve been thinking the last few days. I=E2=80=99m not c= hanging anything until Tracy makes a recommendation. It could be fore and a= ft movement on the shaft, flex plate out of round, worn rubber isolators or= a combination of all these items. We may need a scheduled maintenance plan= to replace items like the rubber isolators or other items that wear and lo= osen tolerances.=0A>=C2=A0=0A>=C2=A0=0A>=C2=A0I will however be inspecting = for this problem before most flights. =0A>=C2=A0=0A>Bobby Hughes=0A>=C2=A0(= playing with fiberglass again)=0A>From:Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:fl= yrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry=0A>Sent: Friday, Jul= y 15, 2011 10:03 AM=0A>To: Rotary motors in aircraft=0A>Subject: [FlyRotary= ] Re: Ok Here are the important flywheel measurements=0A>=C2=A0=0A>=C2=A0= =0A>David,=0A>=C2=A0=0A>I can=E2=80=99t help but think that you may be fixi= ng something that is not broken.=C2=A0 I realize that the flexplate came ap= art on your plane, but that doesn=E2=80=99t mean that the flexplate is the = cause of the problem.=C2=A0 That flexplate holds up quite well in the car w= ith a heavy torque converter attached to it.=C2=A0 Think of the forces when= a car under heavy acceleration changes gear! As long as the forces are alo= ng the plane of the plate it is very strong.=C2=A0 Not so much in the forwa= rd/rearward directions.=C2=A0 In fact that would cause metal fatigue and ca= use it to break just like yours did.=C2=A0 I think that what ever is causin= g the endplay is what you should be looking at.=C2=A0 I suspect that if you= check out the transmission on the car you will find that the endplay of th= e input shaft is controlled by thrust bearings or some such device.=C2=A0 L= ynn may know the answer to this??=0A>=C2=A0=0A>That msg from Al Wick really= resonates with me.=C2=A0 Tracy had to install a thrust bearing to prevent = the drive shaft from hitting the bottom of the pilot bearing and causing an= eccentric shaft failure on the engine.=C2=A0 Maybe you now need to add a c= age similar to what Al was discussing that will trap the shaft end play com= pletely.=C2=A0 That, to me, makes more sense than adding a bigger flywheel.= =C2=A0 If you strengthen the weak spot, you will then discover where the ne= xt weakest spot is because that will be the next failure!=C2=A0 =0A>=C2=A0= =0A>This is a real opportunity for you and the rest of us with the same dri= ve.=C2=A0 Please study this a little more before you begin the fix!=0A>=C2= =A0=0A>Bill B=0A>=C2=A0=0A>From:Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary= @lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of David Leonard=0A>Sent: Friday, July 15, 20= 11 12:42 AM=0A>To: Rotary motors in aircraft=0A>Subject: [FlyRotary] Ok Her= e are the important flywheel measurements=0A>=C2=A0=0A>I finally got to the= hangar and measured out my S5 turbo flywheel and the remains of my S5 flex= plate.=C2=A0 The results are very encouraging, even as good as the possibly= could be to make the swap, but I only had ten min at the hangar before I h= ad to leave to pick up my daughter from daycare, so they are one try and sl= ightly sloppy... I make no guarantees.=C2=A0 The height measurements of the= flex plate were particularly suspect because, well, mine is all warped and= broken.=0A>=0A>Ring Gear Diameter - Perfect fit.=C2=A0 As we suspected, sa= me size, same tooth spacing.=0A>=0A>Ring Gear Fore-Aft Placement - As measu= red from the underside of the big nut. (for all further reference, aft mean= s aft in the CAR).=C2=A0 The flex plate puts the aft side of the ring gear = 1.290 inches from the front of the big nut. The flywheel puts it 0.913.=C2= =A0 So the flex plate puts the ring gear (appx) 0.377 in. further aft.=C2= =A0 This is actually fortuitous because it just so happens that the ring ge= ar thickness is .365 ...=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 So all we have to do to fix the = discrepancy is weld and extra ring gears onto to the flywheel ring gear and= there will be teeth that the starter can reach:(bottom of the page.. the c= ost $80)=0A>http://mazdatrix.com/flywheel.htm=0A>It may also be possible to= fix the discrepancy by changing the starter... will look into that.=0A>=0A= >Damper Plate Placement - On the flywheel, the mounting surface is proud (o= r aft) of the ring gear.=C2=A0 On the flex plate, the mounting surface is r= ecessed (or forward) from the ring gear. And it all pretty much works out.= =C2=A0 That position on the flywheel will vary somewhat depending on which = flywheel you have and how much wear you have on the clutch slip surface. Bu= t on my (I assume well-worn) flywheel the placement was 0.965 while the fle= x plate was 0.950.=C2=A0 Pretty damn close and given measurement error it m= ight me meant to be right on.=C2=A0 Or, any difference could be made up by = trimming down the spline on the damper plate or removing or adding spacers = between the two.=0A>=0A>So in my mind, a flywheel is the way to go.=C2=A0 S= tout, easy to get, pick your weight, only mods seem to be drilling the moun= ting holes and welding on a second gear ring.=0A>=0A>-- =0A>David Leonard= =0A>=0A>Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY=0A>http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net=0A>http://Ro= taryRoster.net=0A>=C2=A0 --0-366487083-1310832376=:63751 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mark and All,
 
   &n= bsp;   In the interest of maintaining flexplate balance I would p= robably rig up some way
to grind the ring ge= ar tooth bevel with a tool post grinder perhaps either on the lathe
or milling machine..= ........I would bet your friend Bob D.&n= bsp;could come up with a method
to do this..........= .........<:) 
 
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil = Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

From:= Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lan= caironline.net>
Sent:= Saturday, July 16, 2011 9:04 AM
Su= bject: [FlyRotary] Re: Flex Plate Failure - Improvements

Bill, 

That's a good point.  The 20B flexplate, which appears to be the = same as the Renesis, has a small bevel on the engine side of each tooth, 18= 0* opposite of the 13B flexplate.  My thought is that this could be du= plicated using a dremmel or die grinder.

Mark S.   

On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 8:39 AM, Bill= Bradburry <= bbradburry@bellsouth.net> wrote:
The RX-8= flywheel/flexplate is designed to have the starter gear enter from the fro= nt as related to the engine.  The RX-7 has the starter entering from t= he rear as related to the engine.  As a result the RX-8 flywheel will = not work with the RX-7 starter.   That is my opinion as I remembe= r the layout.  I am willing to stand corrected by more knowledgeable f= olks.
&= nbsp;
Bill B
&= nbsp;
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net= ] On Behalf Of Tracy
Sent:<= /B> Friday, July 15, 2011 2:41 PM
T= o: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Flex Plate Failure -= Improvements
 
I'm still in= analysis mode on this myself.

So far the possibilities are:

= 1. The flex plate may have been warped when installed  ( I bought seve= ral that were)  I think the standard should be close to zero runout or= wobble on the flexplate in view of this failure.

2.  The flexp= late could have had cracks when installed  (I also bought several that= had cracks and they were not visible unless you looked closely)

3.&= nbsp; The dang things (RX-7 flexplates) are not strong enough for boosted 1= 3Bs or 20Bs. 

I do NOT think the problem is fore & aft tra= vel of the input shaft.  The RD-1x drives have had thrust bearings fro= m day one.  There is no thrust load at all on the damper, flexplate or= crankshaft imposed by the drive.   This was not the case with th= e Ross drive I used at first.

I have over 1000 hours on the same flex= plate on my NA 13B.  I have only 55 hours on the 20B.   But = I'll be checking both.  I did inspect both flexplates VERY carefully b= efore installing. 

If I found that a change were necessary, I = would consider two possibilities.

1.  Use a modified aluminum = racing flywheel used with an auto counterweight.  (Or possibly a light= weight steel one if there is such a thing)

2.  Use an RX-8 flex= plate with an adapter plate made of aluminum or steel sheet to go between t= he flexplate and damper.  The RX-8 version looks stronger than the RX-= 7. I briefly studied this when good RX-7 flexplates were getting hard to fi= nd.   I did not develop a formal procedure for doing this but it looke= d like it would be pretty easy.  Anybody with spare time out there wan= t to take a closer look?  Hint:   The damper bolt pattern would be offset 45 degrees from the RX-8 torque converter bolt pattern. 
Tracy Crook,   RWS
On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Bobby J. = Hughes <bhughes@qnsi.net> wrote:
Bill sum= med up what I=E2=80=99ve been thinking the last few days. I=E2=80=99m not c= hanging anything until Tracy makes a recommenda= tion. It could be fore and aft movement on the shaft, flex plate out of rou= nd, worn rubber isolators or a combination of all these items. We may need = a scheduled maintenance plan to replace items like the rubber isolators or = other items that wear and loosen tolerances.
 
 
 I = will however be inspecting for this problem before most flights.
 
Bobby Hu= ghes
 (playing w= ith fiberglass again)
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net= ] On Behalf Of Bill = Bradburry
Sent: F= riday, July 15, 2011 10:03 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ok Here are the importan= t flywheel measurements
 
 
David,
 
I can=E2= =80=99t help but think that you may be fixing something that is not broken.=   I realize that the flexplate came apart on your plane, but that does= n=E2=80=99t mean that the flexplate is the cause of the problem.  That= flexplate holds up quite well in the car with a heavy torque converter att= ached to it.  Think of the forces when a car under heavy acceleration = changes gear! As long as the forces are along the plane of the plate it is = very strong.  Not so much in the forward/rearward directions.  In= fact that would cause metal fatigue and cause it to break just like yours = did.  I think that what ever is causing the endplay is what you should= be looking at.  I suspect that if you check out the transmission on t= he car you will find that the endplay of the input shaft is controlled by t= hrust bearings or some such device.  Lynn may know the a= nswer to this??
 
That msg= from Al Wick really resonates with me.  Tracy= had to install a thrust bearing to prevent the drive shaft from hittin= g the bottom of the pilot bearing and causing an eccentric shaft failure on= the engine.  Maybe you now need to add a cage similar to what Al was = discussing that will trap the shaft end play completely.  That, to me,= makes more sense than adding a bigger flywheel.  If you strengthen th= e weak spot, you will then discover where the next weakest spot is because = that will be the next failure! 
 
This is = a real opportunity for you and the rest of us with the same drive.  Pl= ease study this a little more before you begin the fix!
 
Bill B
 
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net= ] On Behalf Of David Leonar= d
Sent: Friday, July 15,= 2011 12:42 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
= Subject: [FlyRotary] Ok Here are the important flywheel measurem= ents
 
I finally got to the hangar and measured o= ut my S5 turbo flywheel and the remains of my S5 flexplate.  The resul= ts are very encouraging, even as good as the possibly could be to make the = swap, but I only had ten min at the hangar before I had to leave to pick up= my daughter from daycare, so they are one try and slightly sloppy... I mak= e no guarantees.  The height measurements of the flex plate were parti= cularly suspect because, well, mine is all warped and broken.

Ring Gear Diameter - Perfect fit.=   As we suspected, same size, same tooth spacing.

Ring Gear Fore-Aft Placement - As measur= ed from the underside of the big nut. (for all further reference, aft means= aft in the CAR).  The flex plate puts the aft side of the ring gear 1= .290 inches from the front of the big nut. The flywheel puts it 0.913.  So= the flex plate puts the ring gear (appx) 0.377 in. further aft.  This= is actually fortuitous because it just so happens that the ring gear thick= ness is .365 ...    So all we have to do to fix the discrepa= ncy is weld and extra ring gears onto to the flywheel ring gear and there w= ill be teeth that the starter can reach:(bottom of the page.. the cost $80)=
http://mazdatrix.com/flywheel.htm
It may also be possible to f= ix the discrepancy by changing the starter... will look into that.

<= B>Damper Plate Placement - On = the flywheel, the mounting surface is proud (or aft) of the ring gear. = ; On the flex plate, the mounting surface is recessed (or forward) from the= ring gear. And it all pretty much works out.  That position on the flywheel will vary somewhat depending on which flywheel you have and how m= uch wear you have on the clutch slip surface. But on my (I assume well-worn= ) flywheel the placement was 0.965 while the flex plate was 0.950.  Pr= etty damn close and given measurement error it might me meant to be right o= n.  Or, any difference could be made up by trimming down the spline on= the damper plate or removing or adding spacers between the two.

So = in my mind, a flywheel is the way to go.  Stout, easy to get, pick you= r weight, only mods seem to be drilling the mounting holes and welding on a= second gear ring.
=
--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryR= oster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net
 



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