X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-vw0-f52.google.com ([209.85.212.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.0) with ESMTPS id 5053423 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 23:38:48 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.212.52; envelope-from=wdleonard@gmail.com Received: by vws16 with SMTP id 16so1379848vws.25 for ; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 20:38:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=3HBm7hBE1R5mDIOI98RW2VMX37cWIwfYtwVqg1EXJwk=; b=BFp/MiYYVq8F0LR4sUgp5Qx+FHYt2MBV9ZsHD7unx9nOM+nfS66tQ1lY8yPUKPGpo6 qzffEq5uJZ2Js2nY51xWXTgc3NfyBssVfV4kCoCl8HvP2ItvWq6yQRQLjfLw9kzEi/g5 oTBA/RKINDm+wVzgH+c69tTtRbTDL1n7MMJKk= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.24.147 with SMTP id u19mr941470vdf.525.1310787493266; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 20:38:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.101.225 with HTTP; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 20:38:13 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4A64F693854347D8A2C209750BD1FDCF@BigAl> References: <4A64F693854347D8A2C209750BD1FDCF@BigAl> Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 20:38:13 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Fwd: [Fly rotary] Flex plate stresses From: David Leonard To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf3071ceb0e9848e04a8277ea0 --20cf3071ceb0e9848e04a8277ea0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- *From:* Al Gietzen [mailto:ALVentures@cox.net] * * Here=92s a thought. When the plane is subjected to high G-loads, there wil= l be some flexing of the mounting plate on Tracy=92s drive. Maybe small, but even a little would matter. Anytime that plate is not perfectly perpendicular to the shaft there can be serious; (and cyclical due to the rotation) stresses. It occurs to me that Dave=92s situation may be somewha= t exceptional since, as I know; he is prone to do various aerobatics on just about any flightJ. And considering the pylon racing =96 extended periods o= f high G-loads could result in extended periods of cyclical stress. Something to consider. Al -----Original Message----- *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *On Behalf Of *David Leonard *Sent:* Friday, July 15, 2011 10:11 AM *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Ok Here are the important flywheel measurements Bill, I am not sure what you mean by end play. The drive's input shaft has thrus= t bearings to prevent any forces other than rotation from being transmitted t= o the flex plate. The only forward-rearward forces on the flex plate are the gyroscopic forces, and I cant do anything about that other than beef up the plate. Also, just because it holds up in the car (usually) does not mean it is suited for aircraft. The auto flex plate was only used in 160 h.p. normally aspirated cars with a very low duty cycle and minimal gyroscopic forces. With the RX-8 they obviously felt they needed to beef i= t up. They made it thicker and got rid of the lightening holes that were the starting point for all my cracks. Also that torque converter in the ca= r you mention may help to stabilize the flex plate. Someone else has also pointed out the twisting moment of the damper bolts onto the plate. A thicker fly wheel it the only thing I can think of to mitigate that. The RX8 flex plate would be a big improvement, but it wont readily fit. Fortunately, the light weight fly wheel will not be too difficult to adapt, and the extra rotational weight will only help to further dampen the power pulses. It will put some additional stress on the e-shaft.. but that thin= g has a very good durability record. In e-shafts we trust.. Thanks for the input though! --=20 David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 9:03 AM, Bill Bradburry wrote: David, I can=92t help but think that you may be fixing something that is not broke= n. I realize that the flexplate came apart on your plane, but that doesn=92t m= ean that the flexplate is the cause of the problem. That flexplate holds up quite well in the car with a heavy torque converter attached to it. Think of the forces when a car under heavy acceleration changes gear! As long as the forces are along the plane of the plate it is very strong. Not so much in the forward/rearward directions. In fact that would cause metal fatigue and cause it to break just like yours did. I think that what ever is causing the endplay is what you should be looking at. I suspect that if yo= u check out the transmission on the car you will find that the endplay of the input shaft is controlled by thrust bearings or some such device. Lynn may know the answer to this?? That msg from Al Wick really resonates with me. Tracy had to install a thrust bearing to prevent the drive shaft from hitting the bottom of the pilot bearing and causing an eccentric shaft failure on the engine. Maybe you now need to add a cage similar to what Al was discussing that will trap the shaft end play completely. That, to me, makes more sense than adding a bigger flywheel. If you strengthen the weak spot, you will then discover where the next weakest spot is because that will be the next failure! This is a real opportunity for you and the rest of us with the same drive. Please study this a little more before you begin the fix! Bill B ------------------------------ *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *On Behalf Of *David Leonard *Sent:* Friday, July 15, 2011 12:42 AM *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Ok Here are the important flywheel measurements I finally got to the hangar and measured out my S5 turbo flywheel and the remains of my S5 flexplate. The results are very encouraging, even as good as the possibly could be to make the swap, but I only had ten min at the hangar before I had to leave to pick up my daughter from daycare, so they are one try and slightly sloppy... I make no guarantees. The height measurements of the flex plate were particularly suspect because, well, min= e is all warped and broken. *Ring Gear Diameter* - Perfect fit. As we suspected, same size, same tooth spacing. *Ring Gear Fore-Aft Placement* - As measured from the underside of the big nut. (for all further reference, aft means aft in the CAR). The flex plate puts the aft side of the ring gear 1.290 inches from the front of the big nut. The flywheel puts it 0.913. So the flex plate puts the ring gear (appx) 0.377 in. further aft. This is actually fortuitous because it just so happens that the ring gear thickness is .365 ... So all we have to do to fix the discrepancy is weld and extra ring gears onto to the flywheel ring gear and there will be teeth that the starter can reach:(bottom of the page.. the cost $80) http://mazdatrix.com/flywheel.htm It may also be possible to fix the discrepancy by changing the starter... will look into that. *Damper Plate Placement* - On the flywheel, the mounting surface is proud (or aft) of the ring gear. On the flex plate, the mounting surface is recessed (or forward) from the ring gear. And it all pretty much works out. That position on the flywheel will vary somewhat depending on which flywhee= l you have and how much wear you have on the clutch slip surface. But on my (= I assume well-worn) flywheel the placement was 0.965 while the flex plate was 0.950. Pretty damn close and given measurement error it might me meant to be right on. Or, any difference could be made up by trimming down the spline on the damper plate or removing or adding spacers between the two. So in my mind, a flywheel is the way to go. Stout, easy to get, pick your weight, only mods seem to be drilling the mounting holes and welding on a second gear ring. --=20 David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net --=20 David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net --20cf3071ceb0e9848e04a8277ea0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

=A0<= /span>

-----Original Message-----
From: Al Gietzen [mailto:ALVentures@= cox.net]

=A0

Here=92s a= thought.=A0 When the plane is subjected to high G-loads, there will be some flexing of the mount= ing plate on Tracy=92s drive. =A0Maybe sma= ll, but even a little would matter.=A0 Anytime that plate is not perfectly perpendicular to the shaft there can be serious; (and cyclical due to the rotation) stresses.=A0 It occurs to me that Dave=92s situation may be somewhat exceptional since, as I know; he is prone to do various aerobatics on just about any flightJ.=A0 And considering the pylon racing =96 extended periods of high G-loads could result in extended periods of cyclical stress.

=A0=

Something = to consider.

=A0=

Al<= /font>

=A0=

-----Orig= inal Message-----
From: Rotary motors in air= craft [mailto:fl= yrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of David Leonard
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 10:11 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: O= k Here are the important flywheel measurements

=A0

Bill,

I am not sure what yo= u mean by end play.=A0 The drive's input shaft has thrust bearings to prevent any forces other tha= n rotation from being transmitted to the flex plate.=A0 The only forward-rearward forces on the flex plate are the gyroscopic forces, and I = cant do anything about that other than beef up the plate.=A0=A0 Also, just because it holds up in the car (usually) does not mean it is suited for aircraft.=A0 The auto flex plate was only used in 160 h.p.=A0normally aspirated cars with a very low duty cycle and minimal gyroscopic forces.=A0 With the RX-8 they obviously felt they needed to beef it up.=A0=A0=A0 They made it thicker and got rid of the lightening holes that were the=A0starting point for all my cracks.=A0 Also that torque converter=A0in the car you mention=A0may help to stabilize the flex plate.=A0 Someone else has also pointed out the twisting moment of the damper bolts onto the plate.=A0 A thicker fly wheel it the only thing I can think of to mitigate that.=A0 The RX8 flex plate would be a big improvement= , but it wont readily fit.=A0 Fortunately, the light weight fly wheel will no= t be too difficult to adapt, and the extra rotational weight will only help t= o further dampen the power pulses.=A0 It will put some additional stress on the e-shaft..=A0 but that thing has a very good durability record.=A0 In e-shafts we trust..

=A0

Thanks for the input = though!


--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.Rota= ryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.n= et

On Fri,= Jul 15, 2011 at 9:03 AM, Bill Bradburry <bbradburry@bellsouth.net> wrote:

=A0

David,

=A0

I can=92t help but think that you may be fixing something that is not broken.=A0 I realize tha= t the flexplate came apart on your plane, but that doesn=92t mean that the flexplate is the cause of the problem.=A0 That flexplate holds up quite wel= l in the car with a heavy torque converter attached to it.=A0 Think of the forces when a car under heavy acceleration changes gear! As long as the for= ces are along the plane of the plate it is very strong.=A0 Not so much in the forward/rearward directions.=A0 In fact that would cause metal fatigue and cause it to break just like yours did.=A0 I think that what ever is causing the endplay is what you should be looking at.=A0 I suspect that if you chec= k out the transmission on the car you will find that the endplay of the input shaft is controlled by thrust bearings or some such device.=A0 Lynn may know the answer to this??

=A0

That msg from Al Wick really resonates with me.=A0 Tracy had to inst= all a thrust bearing to prevent the drive shaft from hitting the bottom of the pilot bearing and causing an eccentric shaft fail= ure on the engine.=A0 Maybe you now need to add a cage similar to what Al was discussing that will trap the shaft end play completely.=A0 That, to me, makes more sense than adding a bigger flywheel.=A0 If you strengthen the weak spot, you will then discover where the next weakest spot is because th= at will be the next failure!=A0

=A0

This is a real opportunity for you and the rest of us with the same drive.=A0 Please study this a little more before you begin the fix!

=A0

Bill B

=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of David Leonard
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 12:42 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Ok He= re are the important flywheel measurements

=A0

I finally got to the = hangar and measured out my S5 turbo flywheel and the remains of my S5 flexplate.=A0 The results are very = encouraging, even as good as the possibly could be to make the swap, but I only had ten = min at the hangar before I had to leave to pick up my daughter from daycare, so they are one try and slightly sloppy... I make no guarantees.=A0 The height measurements of the flex plate were particularly suspect because, well, min= e is all warped and broken.

Ring Gear Diameter - Perfe= ct fit.=A0 As we suspected, same size, same tooth spacing.

Ring Gear Fore-Aft Placement - As measured from the underside of the big nut. (for all further reference, aft means aft in the CAR).=A0 The flex plate puts the aft side of the ring gear 1.290 inches from the front of the big nut. The flywheel puts it 0.913.=A0 So the flex plate puts the ring gear (appx) 0.377 in. further aft.=A0 This is actually fortuitous because it just so happens that the ring gear thickn= ess is .365 ...=A0=A0=A0 So all we have to do to fix the discrepancy is weld and extra ring gears onto to the flywheel ring gear and there will be teeth that the starter can reach:(bottom of the page.. the cost $80)
http://mazd= atrix.com/flywheel.htm
It may also be possible to fix the discrepancy by changing the starter... w= ill look into that.

Damper Plate Placement - O= n the flywheel, the mounting surface is proud (or aft) of the ring gear.=A0 On th= e flex plate, the mounting surface is recessed (or forward) from the ring gea= r. And it all pretty much works out.=A0 That position on the flywheel will var= y somewhat depending on which flywheel you have and how much wear you have on= the clutch slip surface. But on my (I assume well-worn) flywheel the placement = was 0.965 while the flex plate was 0.950.=A0 Pretty damn close and given measurement error it might me meant to be right on.=A0 Or, any difference could be made up by trimming down the spline on the damper plate or removin= g or adding spacers between the two.

So in my mind, a flywheel is the way to go.=A0 Stout, easy to get, pick you= r weight, only mods seem to be drilling the mounting holes and welding on a second gear ring.

--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.Rot= aryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.= net






--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV= -6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoste= r.net
http://RotaryRoster.net
--20cf3071ceb0e9848e04a8277ea0--