X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-fx0-f42.google.com ([209.85.161.42] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.0) with ESMTPS id 5053382 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 21:13:40 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.161.42; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by fxe23 with SMTP id 23so2918831fxe.1 for ; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 18:13:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=FoawxIeKrLqLVIl8nrSFW5R7CAN282Mmkgcp0RgweYI=; b=PYmQ2NCZqUKgO7M7IQX/cksgcucsPqvEXfUU858HFdJa4e1tUmQsbPNwSMKYLewwUG EHYyj0anZFICTk8OMlfkCGeA+x+ytvKJOoWCO7mXOHju5vxG3GPoeZMbTtOo7HL5edOM v3r8kjebzqJ5HaBum98ewZ/uLhtQ5KhHn/Mfk= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.145.22 with SMTP id b22mr2538728fav.95.1310778782900; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 18:13:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.73.208 with HTTP; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 18:13:02 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 20:13:02 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Flex Plate Failure - Improvements From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0023545bcf00bbe36604a8257775 --0023545bcf00bbe36604a8257775 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kelly, I don't see why not. The diameter of ring gears is the same; and the dimension from where the flex plate mates to the counterweight to the outer face of the ring gear is the same (1.250"). But I will have to fit-test it to be 100% certain. Mark On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 8:04 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote: > Mark, > Will your existing starter still ingage the ring gear > properly??.......... > > Kelly Troyer > *"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)* > "13B ROTARY"_ Engine > "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 > "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold > "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo > > *From:* Mark Steitle > > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Friday, July 15, 2011 7:48 PM > > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Flex Plate Failure - Improvements > > Guys, > > I removed the flex plate from my 20B today and found a crack. So, as the= y > say, "I now have skin in the game." I was out in the garage tonight, > contemplating this problem and a possible solution came to me. I'll run = it > by you guys here and see what you think. > > Comparing the 20B flex plate to a picture on the Mazdatrix web site, it > appears that the 20B auto flex plate is identical to the Renesis auto fle= x > plate. The outer dimensions (ring gear) and offset from eccentric shaft > flange to outer edge of ring gear of the 20B flex plate is the same as th= e > 13B plate I removed from my 20B today. The Renesis/20B plate has a more > gradual dish shape than the 13B, and is thicker too. Since I had a spare > 20B flex plate and a spare 13B flex plate, I took a few quick measurement= s, > and it looks like the 13B flex plate could be easily made to nest down > inside the 20B plate by removing the 13B's ring gear. That would allow f= or > the two plates to be bolted together using the four 20B outer bolt holes > along with the six crank bolts in the center (when installing on engine). > Then the existing redrive adapter plate could be attached using the > original four existing bolts existing in the 13B plate. This would leave > the RD2-C aluminum adapter plate offset by the thickness of the 20B flex > plate (.090"), and would result in a much stronger flex plate. I calcula= te > this would increase the FWF weight by about 4 lbs. > > Comments? > > Mark S. in TX > > > On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 6:32 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote: > > Dave , Tracy and All, > > Latest update is that probably the substitution of a turbo starter > should eliminate the apparent > need to add another starter ring gear on top of the "ACT" flywheel I have > on order since this flywheel > is susposed to fit any 86-95 with Turbo flywheel (and starter) and 04-08 > RX8 with manual trans...... > Will keep all appraised of what I find out when flywheel > arrives.............. > > Kelly Troyer > *"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)* > "13B ROTARY"_ Engine > "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 > "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold > "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo > > *From:* David Leonard > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Friday, July 15, 2011 5:50 PM > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Flex Plate Failure - Improvements > > Thanks for chiming in Tracy. I have also thought about making an > intermediate plate for the RX8 flex plate, so far I am inclined to go wit= h a > flywheel, but adapting the RX8 flex plate is gaining ground in my mind. > > As far as light weight steel fly wheels, mazdatrix sells one that weighs = 18 > lbs (including counter weight) and costs $350, and Kelly Troyer found (an= d > bought) one on the Internet that weighs 13.8 lbs and is made of > chome-molly-b and sells for $205. Of course, looks like either would > require the addition of another ring gear weighing a couple pounds and > costing $80. I'll wait to hear Kelly's report on the flywheel he bought. > > -- > David Leonard > > Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY > http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net > http://RotaryRoster.net > > > On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 11:41 AM, Tracy wrote: > > I'm still in analysis mode on this myself. > > So far the possibilities are: > > 1. The flex plate may have been warped when installed ( I bought several > that were) I think the standard should be close to zero runout or wobble= on > the flexplate in view of this failure. > > 2. The flexplate could have had cracks when installed (I also bought > several that had cracks and they were not visible unless you looked close= ly) > > 3. The dang things (RX-7 flexplates) are not strong enough for boosted > 13Bs or 20Bs. > > I do NOT think the problem is fore & aft travel of the input shaft. The > RD-1x drives have had thrust bearings from day one. There is no thrust l= oad > at all on the damper, flexplate or crankshaft imposed by the drive. Thi= s > was not the case with the Ross drive I used at first. > > I have over 1000 hours on the same flexplate on my NA 13B. I have only 5= 5 > hours on the 20B. But I'll be checking both. I did inspect both > flexplates VERY carefully before installing. > > If I found that a change were necessary, I would consider two > possibilities. > > 1. Use a modified aluminum racing flywheel used with an auto > counterweight. (Or possibly a lightweight steel one if there is such a > thing) > > 2. Use an RX-8 flexplate with an adapter plate made of aluminum or steel > sheet to go between the flexplate and damper. The RX-8 version looks > stronger than the RX-7. I briefly studied this when good RX-7 flexplates > were getting hard to find. I did not develop a formal procedure for doi= ng > this but it looked like it would be pretty easy. Anybody with spare time > out there want to take a closer look? Hint: The damper bolt pattern wo= uld > be offset 45 degrees from the RX-8 torque converter bolt pattern. > > Tracy Crook, RWS > > > On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Bobby J. Hughes wrote= : > > ****** > Bill summed up what I=92ve been thinking the last few days. I=92m not > changing anything until ****Tracy**** makes a recommendation. It could be > fore and aft movement on the shaft, flex plate out of round, worn rubber > isolators or a combination of all these items. We may need a scheduled > maintenance plan to replace items like the rubber isolators or other item= s > that wear and loosen tolerances.**** > ** ** > ** ** > I will however be inspecting for this problem before most flights. **** > ** ** > Bobby Hughes**** > (playing with fiberglass again)**** > *From:* **Rotary motors in aircraft** [mailto: > flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *On Behalf Of *Bill Bradburry > *Sent:* Friday, July 15, 2011 10:03 AM > *To:* **Rotary motors in aircraft** > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Ok Here are the important flywheel measurement= s > **** > ** ** > ** ** > David,**** > ** ** > I can=92t help but think that you may be fixing something that is not > broken. I realize that the flexplate came apart on your plane, but that > doesn=92t mean that the flexplate is the cause of the problem. That flex= plate > holds up quite well in the car with a heavy torque converter attached to > it. Think of the forces when a car under heavy acceleration changes gear= ! > As long as the forces are along the plane of the plate it is very strong. > Not so much in the forward/rearward directions. In fact that would cause > metal fatigue and cause it to break just like yours did. I think that wh= at > ever is causing the endplay is what you should be looking at. I suspect > that if you check out the transmission on the car you will find that the > endplay of the input shaft is controlled by thrust bearings or some such > device. ****Lynn**** may know the answer to this??**** > ** ** > That msg from Al Wick really resonates with me. ****Tracy**** had to > install a thrust bearing to prevent the drive shaft from hitting the bott= om > of the pilot bearing and causing an eccentric shaft failure on the engine= . > Maybe you now need to add a cage similar to what Al was discussing that w= ill > trap the shaft end play completely. That, to me, makes more sense than > adding a bigger flywheel. If you strengthen the weak spot, you will then > discover where the next weakest spot is because that will be the next > failure! **** > ** ** > This is a real opportunity for you and the rest of us with the same drive= . > Please study this a little more before you begin the fix!**** > ** ** > Bill B**** > ** ** > *From:* **Rotary motors in aircraft** [mailto: > flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *On Behalf Of *David Leonard > *Sent:* Friday, July 15, 2011 12:42 AM > *To:* **Rotary motors in aircraft** > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Ok Here are the important flywheel measurements***= * > ** ** > I finally got to the hangar and measured out my S5 turbo flywheel and the > remains of my S5 flexplate. The results are very encouraging, even as go= od > as the possibly could be to make the swap, but I only had ten min at the > hangar before I had to leave to pick up my daughter from daycare, so they > are one try and slightly sloppy... I make no guarantees. The height > measurements of the flex plate were particularly suspect because, well, m= ine > is all warped and broken. > > *Ring Gear Diameter* - Perfect fit. As we suspected, same size, same > tooth spacing. > > *Ring Gear Fore-Aft Placement* - As measured from the underside of the bi= g > nut. (for all further reference, aft means aft in the CAR). The flex pla= te > puts the aft side of the ring gear 1.290 inches from the front of the big > nut. The flywheel puts it 0.913. So the flex plate puts the ring gear > (appx) 0.377 in. further aft. This is actually fortuitous because it jus= t > so happens that the ring gear thickness is .365 ... So all we have to = do > to fix the discrepancy is weld and extra ring gears onto to the flywheel > ring gear and there will be teeth that the starter can reach:(bottom of t= he > page.. the cost $80) > http://mazdatrix.com/flywheel.htm > It may also be possible to fix the discrepancy by changing the starter... > will look into that. > > *Damper Plate Placement* - On the flywheel, the mounting surface is proud > (or aft) of the ring gear. On the flex plate, the mounting surface is > recessed (or forward) from the ring gear. And it all pretty much works ou= t. > That position on the flywheel will vary somewhat depending on which flywh= eel > you have and how much wear you have on the clutch slip surface. But on my= (I > assume well-worn) flywheel the placement was 0.965 while the flex plate w= as > 0.950. Pretty damn close and given measurement error it might me meant t= o > be right on. Or, any difference could be made up by trimming down the > spline on the damper plate or removing or adding spacers between the two. > > So in my mind, a flywheel is the way to go. Stout, easy to get, pick you= r > weight, only mods seem to be drilling the mounting holes and welding on a > second gear ring. > > -- > David Leonard > > Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY > http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net > http://RotaryRoster.net **** > > > > > > > > > > > --0023545bcf00bbe36604a8257775 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kelly,

I don't see why not. =A0The diameter of ring = gears is the same; =A0and the dimension from where the flex plate mates to = the counterweight to the outer face of the ring gear is the same (1.250&quo= t;). =A0But I will have to fit-test it to be 100% certain.

Mark

On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 a= t 8:04 PM, Kelly Troyer <keltro@att.net> wrote:
Mark,
=A0=A0=A0 Will your existing starter still ingage the ring gear = properly??..........
=A0
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" = (Eventually)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
&quo= t;MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

From: Mark Steitle <= ;msteitle@gmail.com= >

To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Friday, July 15,= 2011 7:48 PM

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Flex Plate Failure - Improv= ements

Guys,

I removed the flex plate from my 20B today and found a crack. =A0So, a= s they say, "I now have skin in the game." =A0I was out in the ga= rage tonight, contemplating this problem and a possible solution came to me= . =A0I'll run it by you guys here and see what you think. =A0

Comparing the 20B flex plate to a picture on the Mazdatrix web site, i= t appears that the 20B auto flex plate is identical to the Renesis auto fle= x plate. =A0The outer dimensions (ring gear) and offset from eccentric shaf= t flange to outer edge of ring gear of the 20B flex plate is the same as th= e 13B plate I removed from my 20B today. =A0The Renesis/20B plate has a mor= e gradual dish shape than the 13B, and is thicker too. =A0Since I had a spa= re 20B flex plate and a spare 13B flex plate, I took a few quick measuremen= ts, and it looks like the 13B flex plate could be easily made to nest down = inside the 20B plate by removing the 13B's ring gear. =A0That would all= ow for the two plates to be bolted together using the four 20B outer bolt h= oles along with the six crank bolts in the center (when installing on engin= e). =A0Then the existing redrive adapter plate could be attached using the = original four existing bolts existing in the 13B plate. =A0This would leave the RD2-C aluminum adapter plate offset by the thickne= ss of the 20B flex plate (.090"), and would result in a much stronger = flex plate. =A0I calculate this would increase the FWF weight by about 4 lb= s.=A0 =A0=A0

Comments? =A0

Mark S. in TX


On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 6:32 PM, Kelly Troyer <keltro@a= tt.net> wrote:
Dave , Tracy and All,
=A0
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Latest update is that probably the substituti= on of a turbo starter should eliminate the apparent
need to add another starter ring gear on top of the "ACT&qu= ot; flywheel I have on order since this flywheel
is susposed to fit any 86-95 with=A0Turbo flywheel (and starter)= =A0and 04-08 RX8 with=A0manual trans......
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Will keep all appraised of what I find out when = flywheel arrives..............
=A0
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" = (Eventually)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
&quo= t;MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

From: David Leonard &l= t;wdleonard@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 = 5:50 PM
Subject: [FlyRota= ry] Re: Flex Plate Failure - Improvements

Thanks for chiming in Tracy.=A0 I have also thought about making an in= termediate plate for the RX8 flex plate, so far I am inclined to go with a = flywheel, but adapting the RX8 flex plate is gaining ground in my mind.
=A0
As far as light weight steel fly wheels, mazdatrix sells one that weig= hs=A018 lbs (including counter weight)=A0and costs $350, and Kelly Troyer f= ound=A0(and bought) one on the Internet that weighs=A013.8 lbs and is made = of chome-molly-b and sells for $205.=A0 Of course, looks like either would = require the addition of another ring gear weighing a couple pounds and cost= ing $80.=A0 I'll wait to hear Kelly's report on the flywheel he bou= ght.
=A0
On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 11:41 AM, Tracy <rwstracy@= gmail.com> wrote:
I'm still in analysis mode on this myself.

So fa= r the possibilities are:

1. The flex plate may have been warped when= installed=A0 ( I bought several that were)=A0 I think the standard should = be close to zero runout or wobble on the flexplate in view of this failure.=

2.=A0 The flexplate could have had cracks when installed=A0 (I also bou= ght several that had cracks and they were not visible unless you looked clo= sely)

3.=A0 The dang things (RX-7 flexplates) are not strong enough = for boosted 13Bs or 20Bs.=A0

I do NOT think the problem is fore & aft travel of the input shaft.= =A0 The RD-1x drives have had thrust bearings from day one.=A0 There is no = thrust load at all on the damper, flexplate or crankshaft imposed by the dr= ive.=A0=A0 This was not the case with the Ross drive I used at first.

I have over 1000 hours on the same flexplate on my NA 13B.= =A0 I have only 55 hours on the 20B.=A0=A0 But I'll be checking both.= =A0 I did inspect both flexplates VERY carefully before installing.=A0
=
If I found that a change were necessary, I would consider two possibili= ties.

1.=A0 Use a modified aluminum racing flywheel used with an auto counter= weight.=A0 (Or possibly a lightweight steel one if there is such a thing)
2.=A0 Use an RX-8 flexplate with an adapter plate made of aluminum or= steel sheet to go between the flexplate and damper.=A0 The RX-8 version lo= oks stronger than the RX-7. I briefly studied this when good RX-7 flexplate= s were getting hard to find. =A0 I did not develop a formal procedure for d= oing this but it looked like it would be pretty easy.=A0 Anybody with spare= time out there want to take a closer look?=A0 Hint: =A0 The damper bolt pa= ttern would be offset 45 degrees from the RX-8 torque converter bolt pattern.
=A0
Tracy Crook,=A0=A0 RWS=20


On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Bobby J. Hughes <= ;bhu= ghes@qnsi.net> wrote:
Bill summed up what I=92ve been thinki= ng the last few days. I=92m not changing anything until Tracy= makes a recommendation. It could be fore and aft movement on= the shaft, flex plate out of round, worn rubber isolators or a combination= of all these items. We may need a scheduled maintenance plan to replace it= ems like the rubber isolators or other items that wear and loosen tolerance= s.
=A0
=A0
=A0I will however be inspecting for th= is problem before most flights.
=A0
Bobby Hughes
=A0(playing with fiberglass again)
=A0
=A0
David,
=A0
I can=92t help but think that you may = be fixing something that is not broken.=A0 I realize that the flexplate cam= e apart on your plane, but that doesn=92t mean that the flexplate is the ca= use of the problem.=A0 That flexplate holds up quite well in the car with a= heavy torque converter attached to it.=A0 Think of the forces when a car u= nder heavy acceleration changes gear! As long as the forces are along the p= lane of the plate it is very strong.=A0 Not so much in the forward/rearward= directions.=A0 In fact that would cause metal fatigue and cause it to brea= k just like yours did.=A0 I think that what ever is causing the endplay is = what you should be looking at.=A0 I suspect that if you check out the trans= mission on the car you will find that the endplay of the input shaft is con= trolled by thrust bearings or some such device.=A0 Lynn may know the answer to this??
=A0
That msg from Al Wick really resonates= with me.=A0 Tracy had to install a thrust bear= ing to prevent the drive shaft from hitting the bottom of the pilot bearing= and causing an eccentric shaft failure on the engine.=A0 Maybe you now nee= d to add a cage similar to what Al was discussing that will trap the shaft = end play completely.=A0 That, to me, makes more sense than adding a bigger = flywheel.=A0 If you strengthen the weak spot, you will then discover where = the next weakest spot is because that will be the next failure!=A0 <= u>
=A0
This is a real opportunity for you and= the rest of us with the same drive.=A0 Please study this a little more bef= ore you begin the fix!
=A0
Bill B
=A0
=A0
I finally got to the hangar and measured out my S5 turbo flywheel and th= e remains of my S5 flexplate.=A0 The results are very encouraging, even as = good as the possibly could be to make the swap, but I only had ten min at t= he hangar before I had to leave to pick up my daughter from daycare, so the= y are one try and slightly sloppy... I make no guarantees.=A0 The height me= asurements of the flex plate were particularly suspect because, well, mine = is all warped and broken.

Ring Gear Diameter - Per= fect fit.=A0 As we suspected, same size, same tooth spacing.

Ring Gear Fore-Aft Placement - As m= easured from the underside of the big nut. (for all further reference, aft = means aft in the CAR).=A0 The flex plate puts the aft side of the ring gear= 1.290 inches from the front of the big nut. The flywheel puts it 0.913.=A0 So the flex plate puts the ring ge= ar (appx) 0.377 in. further aft.=A0 This is actually fortuitous because it = just so happens that the ring gear thickness is .365 ...=A0=A0=A0 So all we= have to do to fix the discrepancy is weld and extra ring gears onto to the= flywheel ring gear and there will be teeth that the starter can reach:(bot= tom of the page.. the cost $80)
http://mazdatrix.com/flywheel.htm
It may also be possible to f= ix the discrepancy by changing the starter... will look into that.

<= b>Damper Plate Placement - On t= he flywheel, the mounting surface is proud (or aft) of the ring gear.=A0 On= the flex plate, the mounting surface is recessed (or forward) from the rin= g gear. And it all pretty much works out.=A0 That position on the flywheel = will vary somewhat depending on which flywheel you have and how much wear you have on the clu= tch slip surface. But on my (I assume well-worn) flywheel the placement was= 0.965 while the flex plate was 0.950.=A0 Pretty damn close and given measu= rement error it might me meant to be right on.=A0 Or, any difference could = be made up by trimming down the spline on the damper plate or removing or a= dding spacers between the two.

So in my mind, a flywheel is the way to go.=A0 Stout, easy to get, pick= your weight, only mods seem to be drilling the mounting holes and welding = on a second gear ring.

--
David Leonard<= br>
Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://Rot= aryRoster.net










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