X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-fx0-f42.google.com ([209.85.161.42] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.0) with ESMTPS id 5053277 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 20:49:15 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.161.42; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by fxe23 with SMTP id 23so2902134fxe.1 for ; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 17:48:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=YBfS0u1GKq+zJYOU1463smsQstIP5mX39Zax7PIOwu4=; b=jvklvCGtru11iKI0VOlZ8QxYlnW38kOTj/or0NRJhjlj04VQ5/NYhExkM4IcTrP2WN H63mAvdu/WranHWoPy5spKvNFDaTQFW7K9umQ0V+yMVkAS0rzxZOgv7Yrm/SpMQ0slBV 7lTRN9Fp3drcQ0EMuFdvb2o/FhPLEth6mB9vg= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.43.1 with SMTP id u1mr6295351fae.38.1310777317987; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 17:48:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.73.208 with HTTP; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 17:48:37 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 19:48:37 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Flex Plate Failure - Improvements From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0ce009666b152304a8252093 --000e0ce009666b152304a8252093 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Guys, I removed the flex plate from my 20B today and found a crack. So, as they say, "I now have skin in the game." I was out in the garage tonight, contemplating this problem and a possible solution came to me. I'll run it by you guys here and see what you think. Comparing the 20B flex plate to a picture on the Mazdatrix web site, it appears that the 20B auto flex plate is identical to the Renesis auto flex plate. The outer dimensions (ring gear) and offset from eccentric shaft flange to outer edge of ring gear of the 20B flex plate is the same as the 13B plate I removed from my 20B today. The Renesis/20B plate has a more gradual dish shape than the 13B, and is thicker too. Since I had a spare 20B flex plate and a spare 13B flex plate, I took a few quick measurements, and it looks like the 13B flex plate could be easily made to nest down inside the 20B plate by removing the 13B's ring gear. That would allow for the two plates to be bolted together using the four 20B outer bolt holes along with the six crank bolts in the center (when installing on engine). Then the existing redrive adapter plate could be attached using the original four existing bolts existing in the 13B plate. This would leave the RD2-C aluminum adapter plate offset by the thickness of the 20B flex plate (.090"), and would result in a much stronger flex plate. I calculate this would increase the FWF weight by about 4 lbs. Comments? Mark S. in TX On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 6:32 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote: > Dave , Tracy and All, > > Latest update is that probably the substitution of a turbo starter > should eliminate the apparent > need to add another starter ring gear on top of the "ACT" flywheel I have > on order since this flywheel > is susposed to fit any 86-95 with Turbo flywheel (and starter) and 04-08 > RX8 with manual trans...... > Will keep all appraised of what I find out when flywheel > arrives.............. > > Kelly Troyer > *"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)* > "13B ROTARY"_ Engine > "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 > "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold > "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo > > *From:* David Leonard > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Friday, July 15, 2011 5:50 PM > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Flex Plate Failure - Improvements > > Thanks for chiming in Tracy. I have also thought about making an > intermediate plate for the RX8 flex plate, so far I am inclined to go wit= h a > flywheel, but adapting the RX8 flex plate is gaining ground in my mind. > > As far as light weight steel fly wheels, mazdatrix sells one that weighs = 18 > lbs (including counter weight) and costs $350, and Kelly Troyer found (an= d > bought) one on the Internet that weighs 13.8 lbs and is made of > chome-molly-b and sells for $205. Of course, looks like either would > require the addition of another ring gear weighing a couple pounds and > costing $80. I'll wait to hear Kelly's report on the flywheel he bought. > > -- > David Leonard > > Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY > http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net > http://RotaryRoster.net > > > On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 11:41 AM, Tracy wrote: > > I'm still in analysis mode on this myself. > > So far the possibilities are: > > 1. The flex plate may have been warped when installed ( I bought several > that were) I think the standard should be close to zero runout or wobble= on > the flexplate in view of this failure. > > 2. The flexplate could have had cracks when installed (I also bought > several that had cracks and they were not visible unless you looked close= ly) > > 3. The dang things (RX-7 flexplates) are not strong enough for boosted > 13Bs or 20Bs. > > I do NOT think the problem is fore & aft travel of the input shaft. The > RD-1x drives have had thrust bearings from day one. There is no thrust l= oad > at all on the damper, flexplate or crankshaft imposed by the drive. Thi= s > was not the case with the Ross drive I used at first. > > I have over 1000 hours on the same flexplate on my NA 13B. I have only 5= 5 > hours on the 20B. But I'll be checking both. I did inspect both > flexplates VERY carefully before installing. > > If I found that a change were necessary, I would consider two > possibilities. > > 1. Use a modified aluminum racing flywheel used with an auto > counterweight. (Or possibly a lightweight steel one if there is such a > thing) > > 2. Use an RX-8 flexplate with an adapter plate made of aluminum or steel > sheet to go between the flexplate and damper. The RX-8 version looks > stronger than the RX-7. I briefly studied this when good RX-7 flexplates > were getting hard to find. I did not develop a formal procedure for doi= ng > this but it looked like it would be pretty easy. Anybody with spare time > out there want to take a closer look? Hint: The damper bolt pattern wo= uld > be offset 45 degrees from the RX-8 torque converter bolt pattern. > > Tracy Crook, RWS > > > On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Bobby J. Hughes wrote= : > > ****** > Bill summed up what I=92ve been thinking the last few days. I=92m not > changing anything until ****Tracy**** makes a recommendation. It could be > fore and aft movement on the shaft, flex plate out of round, worn rubber > isolators or a combination of all these items. We may need a scheduled > maintenance plan to replace items like the rubber isolators or other item= s > that wear and loosen tolerances.**** > ** ** > ** ** > I will however be inspecting for this problem before most flights. **** > ** ** > Bobby Hughes**** > (playing with fiberglass again)**** > *From:* **Rotary motors in aircraft** [mailto: > flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *On Behalf Of *Bill Bradburry > *Sent:* Friday, July 15, 2011 10:03 AM > *To:* **Rotary motors in aircraft** > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Ok Here are the important flywheel measurement= s > **** > ** ** > ** ** > David,**** > ** ** > I can=92t help but think that you may be fixing something that is not > broken. I realize that the flexplate came apart on your plane, but that > doesn=92t mean that the flexplate is the cause of the problem. That flex= plate > holds up quite well in the car with a heavy torque converter attached to > it. Think of the forces when a car under heavy acceleration changes gear= ! > As long as the forces are along the plane of the plate it is very strong. > Not so much in the forward/rearward directions. In fact that would cause > metal fatigue and cause it to break just like yours did. I think that wh= at > ever is causing the endplay is what you should be looking at. I suspect > that if you check out the transmission on the car you will find that the > endplay of the input shaft is controlled by thrust bearings or some such > device. ****Lynn**** may know the answer to this??**** > ** ** > That msg from Al Wick really resonates with me. ****Tracy**** had to > install a thrust bearing to prevent the drive shaft from hitting the bott= om > of the pilot bearing and causing an eccentric shaft failure on the engine= . > Maybe you now need to add a cage similar to what Al was discussing that w= ill > trap the shaft end play completely. That, to me, makes more sense than > adding a bigger flywheel. If you strengthen the weak spot, you will then > discover where the next weakest spot is because that will be the next > failure! **** > ** ** > This is a real opportunity for you and the rest of us with the same drive= . > Please study this a little more before you begin the fix!**** > ** ** > Bill B**** > ** ** > *From:* **Rotary motors in aircraft** [mailto: > flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *On Behalf Of *David Leonard > *Sent:* Friday, July 15, 2011 12:42 AM > *To:* **Rotary motors in aircraft** > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Ok Here are the important flywheel measurements***= * > ** ** > I finally got to the hangar and measured out my S5 turbo flywheel and the > remains of my S5 flexplate. The results are very encouraging, even as go= od > as the possibly could be to make the swap, but I only had ten min at the > hangar before I had to leave to pick up my daughter from daycare, so they > are one try and slightly sloppy... I make no guarantees. The height > measurements of the flex plate were particularly suspect because, well, m= ine > is all warped and broken. > > *Ring Gear Diameter* - Perfect fit. As we suspected, same size, same > tooth spacing. > > *Ring Gear Fore-Aft Placement* - As measured from the underside of the bi= g > nut. (for all further reference, aft means aft in the CAR). The flex pla= te > puts the aft side of the ring gear 1.290 inches from the front of the big > nut. The flywheel puts it 0.913. So the flex plate puts the ring gear > (appx) 0.377 in. further aft. This is actually fortuitous because it jus= t > so happens that the ring gear thickness is .365 ... So all we have to = do > to fix the discrepancy is weld and extra ring gears onto to the flywheel > ring gear and there will be teeth that the starter can reach:(bottom of t= he > page.. the cost $80) > http://mazdatrix.com/flywheel.htm > It may also be possible to fix the discrepancy by changing the starter... > will look into that. > > *Damper Plate Placement* - On the flywheel, the mounting surface is proud > (or aft) of the ring gear. On the flex plate, the mounting surface is > recessed (or forward) from the ring gear. And it all pretty much works ou= t. > That position on the flywheel will vary somewhat depending on which flywh= eel > you have and how much wear you have on the clutch slip surface. But on my= (I > assume well-worn) flywheel the placement was 0.965 while the flex plate w= as > 0.950. Pretty damn close and given measurement error it might me meant t= o > be right on. Or, any difference could be made up by trimming down the > spline on the damper plate or removing or adding spacers between the two. > > So in my mind, a flywheel is the way to go. Stout, easy to get, pick you= r > weight, only mods seem to be drilling the mounting holes and welding on a > second gear ring. > > -- > David Leonard > > Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY > http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net > http://RotaryRoster.net **** > > > > > > > > --000e0ce009666b152304a8252093 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Guys,

I removed the flex plate from my 20B today and fou= nd a crack. =A0So, as they say, "I now have skin in the game." = =A0I was out in the garage tonight, contemplating this problem and a possib= le solution came to me. =A0I'll run it by you guys here and see what yo= u think. =A0

Comparing the 20B flex plate to a picture on the Mazdatrix w= eb site, it appears that the 20B auto flex plate is identical to the Renesi= s auto flex plate. =A0The outer dimensions (ring gear) and offset from ecce= ntric shaft flange to outer edge of ring gear of the 20B flex plate is the = same as the 13B plate I removed from my 20B today. =A0The Renesis/20B plate= has a more gradual dish shape than the 13B, and is thicker too. =A0Since I= had a spare 20B flex plate and a spare 13B flex plate, I took a few quick = measurements, and it looks like the 13B flex plate could be easily made to = nest down inside the 20B plate by removing the 13B's ring gear. =A0That= would allow for the two plates to be bolted together using the four 20B ou= ter bolt holes along with the six crank bolts in the center (when installin= g on engine). =A0Then the existing redrive adapter plate could be attached = using the original four existing bolts existing in the 13B plate. =A0This w= ould leave the RD2-C aluminum adapter plate offset by the thickness of the = 20B flex plate (.090"), and would result in a much stronger flex plate= . =A0I calculate this would increase the FWF weight by about 4 lbs.=A0 =A0= =A0

Comments? =A0

Mark S. in TX


On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 = at 6:32 PM, Kelly Troyer <keltro@att.net> wrote:
Dave , Tracy and All,
=A0
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Latest update is that probably the substituti= on of a turbo starter should eliminate the apparent
need to add another starter ring gear on top of the "ACT&qu= ot; flywheel I have on order since this flywheel
is susposed to fit any 86-95 with=A0Turbo flywheel (and starter)= =A0and 04-08 RX8 with=A0manual trans......
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Will keep all appraised of what I find out when = flywheel arrives..............
=A0
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" = (Eventually)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
&quo= t;MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

From: David Leonard &l= t;wdleonard@gmail.= com>
To: Rotary mo= tors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 = 5:50 PM
Subject: [FlyRota= ry] Re: Flex Plate Failure - Improvements

Thanks for chiming in Tracy.=A0 I have also thought about making an in= termediate plate for the RX8 flex plate, so far I am inclined to go with a = flywheel, but adapting the RX8 flex plate is gaining ground in my mind.
=A0
As far as light weight steel fly wheels, mazdatrix sells one that weig= hs=A018 lbs (including counter weight)=A0and costs $350, and Kelly Troyer f= ound=A0(and bought) one on the Internet that weighs=A013.8 lbs and is made = of chome-molly-b and sells for $205.=A0 Of course, looks like either would = require the addition of another ring gear weighing a couple pounds and cost= ing $80.=A0 I'll wait to hear Kelly's report on the flywheel he bou= ght.
=A0
--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.Ro= taryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net


On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 11:41 AM, Tracy <rwstracy@= gmail.com> wrote:
I'm still in analysis mode on this myself.

So fa= r the possibilities are:

1. The flex plate may have been warped when= installed=A0 ( I bought several that were)=A0 I think the standard should = be close to zero runout or wobble on the flexplate in view of this failure.=

2.=A0 The flexplate could have had cracks when installed=A0 (I also bou= ght several that had cracks and they were not visible unless you looked clo= sely)

3.=A0 The dang things (RX-7 flexplates) are not strong enough = for boosted 13Bs or 20Bs.=A0

I do NOT think the problem is fore & aft travel of the input shaft.= =A0 The RD-1x drives have had thrust bearings from day one.=A0 There is no = thrust load at all on the damper, flexplate or crankshaft imposed by the dr= ive.=A0=A0 This was not the case with the Ross drive I used at first.

I have over 1000 hours on the same flexplate= on my NA 13B.=A0 I have only 55 hours on the 20B.=A0=A0 But I'll be ch= ecking both.=A0 I did inspect both flexplates VERY carefully before install= ing.=A0

If I found that a change were necessary, I would consider two possibili= ties.

1.=A0 Use a modified aluminum racing flywheel used with an au= to counterweight.=A0 (Or possibly a lightweight steel one if there is such = a thing)

2.=A0 Use an RX-8 flexplate with an adapter plate made of aluminum or s= teel sheet to go between the flexplate and damper.=A0 The RX-8 version look= s stronger than the RX-7. I briefly studied this when good RX-7 flexplates = were getting hard to find. =A0 I did not develop a formal procedure for doi= ng this but it looked like it would be pretty easy.=A0 Anybody with spare t= ime out there want to take a closer look?=A0 Hint: =A0 The damper bolt patt= ern would be offset 45 degrees from the RX-8 torque converter bolt pattern.
=A0
Tracy Crook,=A0=A0 RWS=20


On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Bobby J. Hughes <= ;bhu= ghes@qnsi.net> wrote:
Bill summed up what I=92ve been thinki= ng the last few days. I=92m not changing anything until Tracy= makes a recommendation. It could be fore and aft movement on= the shaft, flex plate out of round, worn rubber isolators or a combination= of all these items. We may need a scheduled maintenance plan to replace it= ems like the rubber isolators or other items that wear and loosen tolerance= s.
=A0
=A0
=A0I will however be inspecting for th= is problem before most flights.
=A0
Bobby Hughes
=A0(playing with fiberglass again)
=A0
=A0
David,
=A0
I can=92t help but think that you may = be fixing something that is not broken.=A0 I realize that the flexplate cam= e apart on your plane, but that doesn=92t mean that the flexplate is the ca= use of the problem.=A0 That flexplate holds up quite well in the car with a= heavy torque converter attached to it.=A0 Think of the forces when a car u= nder heavy acceleration changes gear! As long as the forces are along the p= lane of the plate it is very strong.=A0 Not so much in the forward/rearward= directions.=A0 In fact that would cause metal fatigue and cause it to brea= k just like yours did.=A0 I think that what ever is causing the endplay is = what you should be looking at.=A0 I suspect that if you check out the trans= mission on the car you will find that the endplay of the input shaft is con= trolled by thrust bearings or some such device.=A0 Lynn may know the answer = to this??
=A0
That msg from Al Wick really resonates= with me.=A0 Tracy had to install a thrust bear= ing to prevent the drive shaft from hitting the bottom of the pilot bearing= and causing an eccentric shaft failure on the engine.=A0 Maybe you now nee= d to add a cage similar to what Al was discussing that will trap the shaft = end play completely.=A0 That, to me, makes more sense than adding a bigger = flywheel.=A0 If you strengthen the weak spot, you will then discover where = the next weakest spot is because that will be the next failure!=A0 <= u>
=A0
This is a real opportunity for you and= the rest of us with the same drive.=A0 Please study this a little more bef= ore you begin the fix!
=A0
Bill B
=A0
=A0
I finally got to the hangar and measured out my S5 turbo flywheel and th= e remains of my S5 flexplate.=A0 The results are very encouraging, even as = good as the possibly could be to make the swap, but I only had ten min at t= he hangar before I had to leave to pick up my daughter from daycare, so the= y are one try and slightly sloppy... I make no guarantees.=A0 The height me= asurements of the flex plate were particularly suspect because, well, mine = is all warped and broken.

Ring Gear Diameter - Per= fect fit.=A0 As we suspected, same size, same tooth spacing.

Ring Gear Fore-Aft Placement - As m= easured from the underside of the big nut. (for all further reference, aft = means aft in the CAR).=A0 The flex plate puts the aft side of the ring gear= 1.290 inches from the front of the big nut. The flywheel puts it 0.913.=A0 So th= e flex plate puts the ring gear (appx) 0.377 in. further aft.=A0 This is ac= tually fortuitous because it just so happens that the ring gear thickness i= s .365 ...=A0=A0=A0 So all we have to do to fix the discrepancy is weld and= extra ring gears onto to the flywheel ring gear and there will be teeth th= at the starter can reach:(bottom of the page.. the cost $80)
http://mazdatrix.com/flywheel.htm
It may also be possible to f= ix the discrepancy by changing the starter... will look into that.

<= b>Damper Plate Placement - On t= he flywheel, the mounting surface is proud (or aft) of the ring gear.=A0 On= the flex plate, the mounting surface is recessed (or forward) from the rin= g gear. And it all pretty much works out.=A0 That position on the flywheel will vary somewhat depending on which flywheel you have and how m= uch wear you have on the clutch slip surface. But on my (I assume well-worn= ) flywheel the placement was 0.965 while the flex plate was 0.950.=A0 Prett= y damn close and given measurement error it might me meant to be right on.= =A0 Or, any difference could be made up by trimming down the spline on the = damper plate or removing or adding spacers between the two.

So in my mind, a flywheel is the way to go.=A0 Stout, easy to get, pick= your weight, only mods seem to be drilling the mounting holes and welding = on a second gear ring.

--
David Leonard<= br>
Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://Rot= aryRoster.net







--000e0ce009666b152304a8252093--