X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nm28.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.44.155] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c3j) with SMTP id 4958337 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 26 Apr 2011 18:32:39 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.44.155; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: from [98.139.44.97] by nm28.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Apr 2011 22:32:04 -0000 Received: from [98.139.44.86] by tm2.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Apr 2011 22:32:04 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1023.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Apr 2011 22:32:04 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 537264.17193.bm@omp1023.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 96551 invoked by uid 60001); 26 Apr 2011 22:32:00 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1303857120; bh=dWX/4U5atmfcD9gn+X9BSuamGRzxAjSOvE9XjxMkgWM=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=aJkfwvn4RYad+aBGQsExkYPDTK9OmywiLDh8N1NRWPVocGo8GXTwLOb+L2+mlq9YRJne7C3veOFOeKXcH//GvJFG8VeZV95EUqkybvCst1u9bSK6865B7ho37+ciF6JVfmr8nKlvszkglCmftVIhTUJnXwkS3DEjn/5eJNR75NY= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=att.net; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=AKlofQpCWOI1pQG67M/ye7HDfBKoXEQeSOPaGgfXj4B7to3pUxEFz/eIRwDJk8VaNFSe5wEMEpfBT/5tO+qZ/FsXqiQ1JdUxSQkBrwXbmqNH3wZlMg3gKZwBV8AtzKj3EE5d1rMYQ3sS8yFnMPb9QYTfe2SCvhMnVbK2ySW5RwI=; Message-ID: <416041.76219.qm@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: vpGmhJwVM1lohhOeeDT8ocL5avGSk5ziTOZ0cz.7SIcnrFz ejS3.y4D9fqqqokWr6EYLINSUSsrTDv5skFRFJc0ojP78wGocl0uGyA8EbBI LkVUrsGt9peDGPcMiKlvJtZopmr98RuOWSj2zoeoGZAMKQ4whk5ki_kArZz_ xrR2l20Upf5VfJ8HjgtE_yMRUofkjeVAQqsQVazhnnh6yY_T7qNEUXwK2l90 c1L0RpJ7vTmi9Ejt5.9SQTC4wAjweoDGQsEEGknbSzBrLWSUNkApTWCKDg4w iyi4S8H_JX4iLKP0F7w09rJZ8762RNu8DU_5Ayqwguc4MCvioehqjoeIuK7T ay5VRLRkSQFkbMRJp Received: from [208.114.40.17] by web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 26 Apr 2011 15:32:00 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/559 YahooMailWebService/0.8.110.299900 References: Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 15:32:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Kelly Troyer Subject: Re: Mistral 'Like' Intake To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-336243938-1303857120=:76219" --0-336243938-1303857120=:76219 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jarrett,=0A=A0=A0=A0 Charlie may be on to something here about the "Conical= " parallel =0Amount..........gives you =0A=0Amore to mull over.............= ....<:) (just what you need)=A0=0A=A0=0AKelly Troyer=0A"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Ev= entually)=0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A"MISTRAL"_Backplate= /Oil Manifold=0A"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A__________________= ______________=0AFrom: Charlie England =0ATo: Rota= ry motors in aircraft =0ASent: Tue, April 26, = 2011 5:06:54 PM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: Mistral 'Like' Intake=0A=0A2nd K= elly's opinion. the info I have said type 2 was for engines with *extended = =0Ahub* constant speed prop (~2 1/2" beyond a normal constant speed), which= moves =0Athe cg forward a lot. Van's no longer even supplies type 2 mounts= because they =0Aare so rare. =0A=0A=0AIMO, the only reason to do dynafocal= at all is because the mounts are so common. =0Athe old 'conical' style mou= nt (4 parallel bolts) would be just fine for a rotary =0Awith its inherentl= y smooth operation. The reason Lyc did the dynafocal was an =0Aattempt to d= amp their flat 4's horrendous vibration pattern (not that =0Aeffective...).= The conical mount Lyc motors can be converted to dynafocal by an =0Aengine= shop, implying that the bolt circle is virtually identical. The downside = =0Ato dynafocal is that the rubbers cost about a factor of 10-15 more money= than =0Aconical mount rubbers. Less than $30 for a set of conical; $300-$5= 00 for =0Adynafocal. =0A=0A=0AI still have available the dyna ring off my o= riginal RV motor mount, if there's =0Aa scanning shop in Jackson MS. If you= can find a shop, let me know & I'll take =0Ait there for a scan.=0A=0ATo a= ddress the concern about attachment strength: with a new housing, it should= =0Abe relatively simple to add a piece to grab the top of the middle iron = or even =0Athe bellhousing flange top bolts if you're really paranoid. I'm = no engineer, but =0AI'd think that there is plenty of bolt & aluminum area = to take the shear loads; =0Athe only question in my mind would be the bolts= at the top that will be in =0Atension in the cast iron casting. I have a h= ard time believing that 6 gs could =0Astretch the 4 or 5 bolts across the t= op of the 'stack' enough to affect the =0Aengine, at the relatively low pow= er levels that will be used in a/c. (I'm =0Astrictly talking about 2 rotor = engines, not the 3+ rotor versions.)=0A=0ACharlie=0A=0AOn 4/26/2011 9:04 AM= , Kelly Troyer wrote: =0AJarrett,=0A>=0A>=A0=A0=A0=A0 The "Mistral" 13B eng= ine (and their 20B)=A0CG of 9.44 and 11.73=A0 inches =0A>respectively=A0was= =A0complete with =0A>=0A>all accessories and=A0redrive (which is heavier th= an Tracy's=A0RD1X re-drives of=A044 =0A>lbs)................The addition=0A= >of a constant speed (with normal extension) would still keep the Type 1, 3= 0 =0A>degree focal point of=A014.373"=0A>in front of the 13B CG (IMHO).....= ......The 20B CG with normal constant speed =0A>would have to be calculated= =0A>to see if it remained within the Type 1, 30 degree 14.373" focal =0A>po= int..............The type 2,18 degree seems=0A>to have been used only on a = specific 0-320 model installed in the twin Comanche =0A>(That does not keep= your=0A>Lancair=A0from having=A0this engine installed)..................= =0A>=0A>=A0=A0=A0=0A>Kelly Troyer=0A>"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A>"13B = ROTARY"_ Engine=0A>"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A>"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold= =0A>"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A______________________= __________=0AFrom: H & J Johnson =0A>To: Rotary moto= rs in aircraft =0A>Sent: Tue, April 26, 2011 2= :36:54 AM=0A>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Mistral 'Like' Intake=0A>=0A>=A0Inter= esting. I may very well be wrong but for some reason I had it in my head = =0A>[once it was jared by Bills mention of Type 2] that the Type 2's were u= sually =0A>used for engines w/ constant speed [due to weight] and the type = 1's were used =0A>mainly for fixed pitch. [old wives tale?]=A0I would think= that due to our extra =0A>weight out front on the nose a Type 2 would be m= ore in order. Having said that, =0A>I have no idea where the CofG on a 13B = is located and how that relates to the =0A>various focal points. In additio= n, how adding a PSRU on the nose would impact =0A>the CofG [and or a electr= icl pitch prop etc].=A0 I'll have to do some reading and =0A>see what I can= dig up.=A0 Certainly a good place to start w/ as far as a ground up =0A>de= sign on the mounting housing. =0A>=0A>Lynn, re: Strength of the Connection.= =0A>I remember you stating some of those points a while back. I'm wondering= if, in =0A>our lower power state, these are as much a concern as they are = in the racing =0A>world? It would certainly be possible to add extra parts = to the install [the =0A>thickened bottom plate, or perhaps some form of a s= tiffener that locks the block =0A>from torque related movement front to bac= k=A0 { all just thoughts flashing through =0A>my brain, RHRN}. I've not hea= rd comment about how Mistral addressed this [or if =0A>it was a concern of = theirs?].=0A>Kelly, do you know of any additional connection points [dowels= or pins etc] that =0A>were needed for the instal of a Mistral housing?=A0= =0A>It certainly is not my first 'pick' to have a mounting housing which ne= eds =0A>modifications to a short block, to allow it to be installed.=0A>=0A= >=0A>Jarrett Johnson =0A>www.innovention-tech.com =0A>=A0=0A>Jarrett and Bi= ll,=0A>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Here is the source of my "Dynafocal" mount info..= .............=0A>=A0=0A>Kelly Troyer=0A>"DYKE DELTA JD2"(Eventually)=0A>"13= B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A>"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A>"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold= =0A>"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A______________________= __________=0AFrom: Kelly Troyer =0A>To: Rotary motors in ai= rcraft =0A>Sent: Mon, April 25, 2011 10:37:25 = PM=0A>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Mistral 'Like' Intake=0A>=0A>=0A>Bill,=0A>= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0My info says the Type 2 ,18 degree was introduced when O= -320's were put =0A>in twin Comanches=0A>with extra long constant speed pro= p extensions (for a more streamlined =0A>cowl)............This then put=0A>= the engine CG further forward so to keep the Dynafocal mount "Focal" point = =0A>slightly ahead of the=0A>engine CG the Dynafocal mount angle was reduce= d from 30 degrees to 18 =0A>degrees.........=0A>=0A>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 The Dyn= afocal type 1 focal point is 14.323 inches from the =0A>mounts.............= .....The "Mistral" 13B=0A>engine CG is 9.44 inches from the mount so should= work well with the type 1, 30 =0A>degree=A0Dynafocal=0A>mount.............= .IMHO=A0=0A>=A0=0A>Kelly Troyer=0A>"DYKE DELTA JD2"(Eventually)=0A>"13B ROT= ARY"_ Engine=0A>"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A>"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A>"= TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A___________________________= _____=0AFrom: Bill Bradburry =0A>To: Rotary motor= s in aircraft =0A>Sent: Mon, April 25, 2011 10= :13:02 PM=0A>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Mistral 'Like' Intake=0A>=0A>=0A>Ther= e is also a Type 2 Dynafocal that I think is in more common usage.=A0 If I = =0A>recall the angle on it is 17 degrees.=0A>=A0=0A>Bill B=0A>=A0=0A>=0A___= _____________________________=0A=0A>From:Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:= flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of =0A>Kelly Troyer=0A>Sent: Monday,= April 25, 2011 4:57 PM=0A>To: Rotary motors in aircraft=0A>Subject: [FlyRo= tary] Re: Mistral 'Like' Intake=0A>=A0=0A>Jarrett,=0A>=A0=0A>=A0=A0=A0=A0 I= found the "Dynafocal" info................Was on my other computer =0A>!!.= .................=0A>=A0=0A>Kelly Troyer=0A>"DYKE DELTA JD2"(Eventually)=0A= >"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A>"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A>"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Mani= fold=0A>"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A>=A0=0A>=A0=0A>=0A____________________= ____________=0A=0A>From:H & J Johnson =0A>To: Rotary= motors in aircraft =0A>Sent: Mon, April 25, 2= 011 11:21:48 AM=0A>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Mistral 'Like' Intake=0A>The sc= anning should give in the tens of thousands [0.01"] or less depending on = =0A>what type of equipement used etc.=A0=A0 That in conjunction w/ bolt hol= d placement =0A>that I already have [lots of collected data over the years]= I should be able to =0A>duplicate the basic geometry. From there it will b= ecome a new product in that we =0A>want to make it=A0something that=A0works= for everyone [or as many as possible] to =0A>make it a viable unit. That i= nfo, mixed w/ knowing what the 'Standard' mount =0A>geometry is should get = us where we need to go.=0A>Best regards=0A>=0A>Jarrett Johnson =0A>www.inno= vention-tech.com=0A>----- Original Message ----- =0A>From: Kelly Troyer =0A>Date: Monday, April 25, 2011 10:03 am =0A>Subject: [FlyRo= tary] Re: Mistral 'Like' Intake =0A>> Jarrett, =0A>> =0A>> =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 = I do not know exactly=A0what dimensions the scanning give you =0A>> such as= bolt =0A>> hole placement, etc.........I presumed =0A>> that the angles of= the mount ears needed for the "Dynafoal" mounts =0A>> would be =0A>> "Dead= " on though.......... =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> Kelly Troyer =0A>> "DYKE DELTA JD2"= (Eventually) =0A>> "13B ROTARY"_ Engine =0A>> "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 =0A>> "MI= STRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold =0A>> "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo =0A>> =0A>> = =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> ________________________________ =0A>> From: H & J Johnso= n =0A>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>> Sent: Mon, April 25, 2011 10:49:43 AM =0A>> Subject:= [FlyRotary] Re: Mistral 'Like' Intake =0A>> =0A>> =A0Excellent, now I just= need to get some Dynafocal dimensions [I've =0A>> seen it on =0A>> the web= in the past, just gotta re-locate the dimensional =0A>> 'standards']. That= in =0A>> conjunction w/ a few scans & the picture will start to really tak= e =0A>> shape! =0A>> =0A>> I love progress :) =0A>> I can't say Thanks enou= gh Kelly, w/out the help of yourself and =0A>> others it would =0A>> be a m= uch steeper curve to get it up to speed. =0A>> =0A>> Jarrett Johnson =0A>> = www.innovention-tech.com =0A>> --=A0 Homepage:=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/= =A0 Archive and UnSub:=A0=A0 =0A>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/f= lyrotary/List.html =0A>> =0A>-- =0A --0-336243938-1303857120=:76219 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=0A
Jarrett,
=0A
    Charlie ma= y be on to something here about the "Conical" parallel mount..........gives= you
=0A
more to mull over.................<:) (just what you = need) 
 
=0A

Kelly Troyer
"DY= KE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)

=0A

"= 13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifo= ld

=0A

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

=0A

=0A

=0A=0A
=0AFrom: Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.ne= t>
To: Rotary motors = in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Tue, April 26, 2011 5:06:54 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Mistral 'Like= ' Intake

2nd Kelly's opinion. the info I have said type 2 was= for engines with *extended hub* constant speed prop (~2 1/2" beyond a norm= al constant speed), which moves the cg forward a lot. Van's no longer even = supplies type 2 mounts because they are so rare.

IMO, the only reas= on to do dynafocal at all is because the mounts are so common. the old 'con= ical' style mount (4 parallel bolts) would be just fine for a rotary with i= ts inherently smooth operation. The reason Lyc did the dynafocal was an att= empt to damp their flat 4's horrendous vibration pattern (not that effective...). The conical mount Lyc motors can be conve= rted to dynafocal by an engine shop, implying that the bolt circle is virtu= ally identical. The downside to dynafocal is that the rubbers cost about a = factor of 10-15 more money than conical mount rubbers. Less than $30 for a = set of conical; $300-$500 for dynafocal.

I still have available the= dyna ring off my original RV motor mount, if there's a scanning shop in Ja= ckson MS. If you can find a shop, let me know & I'll take it there for = a scan.

To address the concern about attachment strength: with a new= housing, it should be relatively simple to add a piece to grab the top of = the middle iron or even the bellhousing flange top bolts if you're really p= aranoid. I'm no engineer, but I'd think that there is plenty of bolt & = aluminum area to take the shear loads; the only question in my mind would b= e the bolts at the top that will be in tension in the cast iron casting. I have a hard time believing that 6 gs could stretch the 4 or 5 b= olts across the top of the 'stack' enough to affect the engine, at the rela= tively low power levels that will be used in a/c. (I'm strictly talking abo= ut 2 rotor engines, not the 3+ rotor versions.)

Charlie

On 4/= 26/2011 9:04 AM, Kelly Troyer wrote: =0A
=0A
=0AJarrett,
=0A
 
=0A
     The "Mi= stral" 13B engine (and their 20B) CG of 9.44 and 11.73  inches re= spectively was complete with
=0A
all accessories and&nb= sp;redrive (which is heavier than Tracy's RD1X re-drives of 44 lb= s)................The addition
=0A
of a constant speed (with norma= l extension) would still keep the Type 1, 30 degree focal point of 14.= 373"
=0A
in front of the 13B CG (IMHO)...........The 20B CG with n= ormal constant speed would have to be calculated
=0A
to see if it = remained within the Type 1, 30 degree 14.373" focal point..............The = type 2,18 degree seems
=0A
to have been used only on a specific 0-= 320 model installed in the twin Comanche (That does not keep your
=0A<= DIV>Lancair from having this engine installed)..................<= /DIV>=0A
 
=0A
   
=0A

Kelly Troyer=
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventual= ly)

=0A

"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
= "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

=0A

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

=0A=

=0A

=0A
=0A
=0AFrom: H & J Joh= nson &l= t;hjjohnson@sasktel.net>
To:= Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net&= gt;
Sent: Tue, April= 26, 2011 2:36:54 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Mistral 'Like' Intake

 Inter= esting. I may very well be wrong but for some reason I had it in my head [o= nce it was jared by Bills mention of Type 2] that the Type 2's were usually= used for engines w/ constant speed [due to weight] and the type 1's were u= sed mainly for fixed pitch. [old wives tale?] I would think that due to our extra weight out fron= t on the nose a Type 2 would be more in order. Having said that, I have no = idea where the CofG on a 13B is located and how that relates to the various= focal points. In addition, how adding a PSRU on the nose would impact the = CofG [and or a electricl pitch prop etc].  I'll have to do some readin= g and see what I can dig up.  Certainly a good place to start w/ as fa= r as a ground up design on the mounting housing. =0A

Lynn, re: Strength o= f the Connection.

=0A

I remember you stating some of those points a wh= ile back. I'm wondering if, in our lower power state, these are as much a c= oncern as they are in the racing world? It would certainly be possible to a= dd extra parts to the install [the thickened bottom plate, or perhaps some = form of a stiffener that locks the block from torque related movement front= to back  { all just thoughts flashing through my brain, RHRN}. I've n= ot heard comment about how Mistral addressed this [or if it was a concern o= f theirs?].

=0A

Kelly, do you know of any additional connection points= [dowels or pins etc] that were needed for the instal of a Mistral housing?=  

=0A

It certainly is not my first 'pick' to have a mounting hous= ing which needs modifications to a short block, to allow it to be installed= .



Jarrett Johnson
www.innovention-tech.com = =0A

 

=0A

=0A

=0A
=0A
Jarrett and Bill= ,
=0A
       Here is the source of m= y "Dynafocal" mount info...............
 
=0A

Kelly Troyer"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)

=0A

= "13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manif= old

=0A

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

=0A

=0A

=0A=0A
=0AFrom: Kelly Troyer <keltro@att.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>=
Sent: Mon, April 25, 2011 10:37:25 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Mis= tral 'Like' Intake

=0A
=0A
Bill,
=0A
  &= nbsp;    My info says the Type 2 ,18 degree was introduced w= hen O-320's were put in twin Comanches
=0A
with extra long constan= t speed prop extensions (for a more streamlined cowl)............This then = put
=0A
the engine CG further forward so to keep the Dynafocal mou= nt "Focal" point slightly ahead of the
=0A
engine CG the Dynafocal= mount angle was reduced from 30 degrees to 18 degrees.........
=0A 
=0A
      The Dynafocal type 1 f= ocal point is 14.323 inches from the mounts..................The "Mistral" = 13B
=0A
engine CG is 9.44 inches from the mount so should work wel= l with the type 1, 30 degree Dynafocal
=0A
mount.............= .IMHO 
 
=0A

Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)

=0A

"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS= "_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

=0A

"TURBONETICS"_T= O4E50 Turbo

=0A

=0A

=0A
=0A
=0AFrom: Bill Bradburry <bbradburry@bellsouth.net>= ;
To:= Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net&= gt;
Sent: Mon, April 25, 2011 10:13:02 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Mistral 'Like' Intake

=0A