X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nm16.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.44.143] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c3j) with SMTP id 4957852 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 26 Apr 2011 10:25:07 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.44.143; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: from [98.139.44.98] by nm16.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Apr 2011 14:24:32 -0000 Received: from [98.139.44.73] by tm3.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Apr 2011 14:24:32 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1010.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Apr 2011 14:24:32 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 294977.33657.bm@omp1010.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 43418 invoked by uid 60001); 26 Apr 2011 14:24:31 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1303827871; bh=nPd4Zc/VoAQeSE4oD5x4VHxH8lIdXmjRqtuAHaF3WY4=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=2q5QnTWGrcgUL5fCpHzM/6Vu6WnmF9b0MVoPdcHaY/w7QR0cyp8VJGK3awIy7RrocbrLUOVIBgPCeaDsSpHEn98mDWUAiBmX+vXHpnyrCm9UgqXnN+oLlBMIOvl5XdRVf4Llax4+XgACvAQtZYrQIi6c9fCZ2MIaeIAL+vjVybo= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=att.net; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=i8uuDOIElywPCj7rj3u0JHe8yXu9kRaCNvcUdKWMbJjWS/XWN+swbO9rewVLpYdXhK5t6emCWP8lTnBC5+H47UFZCgdKQ+8nYgXgWQzLgB1GEwZOKrMg4hoBeAqo3gyYnx9yY10ycBtqE6dmaS6NwSUCHMLlGOBLKnmQcp9l6FA=; Message-ID: <531431.39965.qm@web83914.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: MgVw7X4VM1k9rvv9EtDm1hvi5N9N9pdjZFASSZ0xhVz.euF KiaJJK_q9yZH1lD0y47W1ElShGlh6sa2sX0KXuCELFCfUHYtxJOoVnCqXA3W dswsheWBv_cnxUCRCfzEIlK4gZU_x3tDNvU0bJwFVVND25eEildbifszITYU n731SEb9dzYjEItZoHyVZH1N7XtNWtENP6Y7jkKuau9rknZUJ9s5iH.QiLBF LJdcWcFPDQZaqYh7LSxamx4B16oeEZkszd_syGnRCWDVbTzklkQqqj4P10uU LGIPtUa.28sQwYpmK0oa1fXy.hkDfIE75A9.4hNYleYmC.IGMJ55vq8_zvOc ViVCytf.ip2KjALas Received: from [208.114.42.152] by web83914.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 26 Apr 2011 07:24:31 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/559 YahooMailWebService/0.8.110.299900 References: Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 07:24:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Kelly Troyer Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Mistral 'Like' Intake To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-350683428-1303827871=:39965" --0-350683428-1303827871=:39965 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jarrett and Lynn,=0A=0A=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Mistral did have a Magnesium o= il sump that added considerable rigidity =0Ato the 13B and 20B block but=0A= in talking to their chief engineer (Anderson) there was no mention of addit= ional =0Adowels, etc...............=0A=A0=0AKelly Troyer=0A"DYKE DELTA JD2"= (Eventually)=0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A"MISTRAL"_Backp= late/Oil Manifold=0A"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A______________= __________________=0AFrom: H & J Johnson =0ATo: Rota= ry motors in aircraft =0ASent: Tue, April 26, = 2011 9:06:30 AM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: Mistral 'Like' Intake=0A=0A=0ATh= anks Lynn, You make a good argument. I will probably come back to you at so= me =0Apoint here and query more directly on the where's and the hows. For n= ow I've got =0Ato stew on it all etc. Lots of that [thinking] going to be r= equired in the =0Afuture to make this all work.=0A=A0=0AThanks again!=0A=0A= Jarrett Johnson =0Awww.innovention-tech.com =0A=0A----- Original Message --= --- From: Lehanover@aol.com Date: Tuesday, April 26, =0A2011 7:20 am Subjec= t: [FlyRotary] Re: Mistral 'Like' Intake > The current layout =0Aobviously = works and has been crash tested with =0A=0A> good=A0 =0A> results. The engi= ne remained attached to the fuselage and in front =0A> rather than=A0 =0A> = being folded under. Well, for that particular crash anyway. =0A> =0A> I won= der who got the salvage? =0A> =0A> However, if you plan to start from scrat= ch, you have an =0A> opportunity to=A0 =0A> outperform Mistral. The most re= cent Mistral is not the first, =0A> although the name =0A> may have been di= fferent. I met Frances at the engine tent at =0A> Sun&Fun years =0A> ago. H= e had the reduction unit with him. He was excited to meet =0A> somebody =0A= > who=A0 knew stuff about rotary engines. Once they had relearned all =0A> = about =0A> rotaries, and=A0 had thousands of dyno hours built up, they had = =0A> quite a package =0A> assembled. But=A0 the certified nut is hard to cr= ack, and I think =0A> both versions =0A> of the company=A0 died trying. =0A= > =0A> Perhaps building up a collection of products based on the rotary=A0 = =0A> installation rather than a complete unit that was about the cost =0A> = of a zero time=A0 =0A> Lycoming or Continental. You have to be able to poin= t out some =0A> sort of advantage =0A> over the conventional engines. Peopl= e who put car engines in =0A> airplanes do =0A> it=A0 primarily for cost re= asons. =0A> =0A> Having an installation testing here was another thing that= escaped =0A> me. =0A> One year they had the plane flying, but the oil temp= s went up so =0A> high so=A0 =0A> fast that it could not fly to Lakeland Fr= om Embry Riddle. So I =0A> made some=A0 =0A> suggestions. Like don't use mu= lti grade anything. Don't use multi =0A> grade =0A> aircraft=A0 oils. Full = of plastic and foams like crazy. That fills =0A> it with air, and =0A> then= the=A0 coolers stop working. Use straight weight car oil. Its a =0A> car = =0A> engine. Racing oils=A0 have lots of anti foaming additives lots of =0A= > anti scuff =0A> compounds and very high=A0 film strengths. Synthetics eve= n better. =0A> =0A> Later they built their own oil pump housings and pickup= s. With =0A> suction=A0 =0A> feeds from both ends like the FD pumps. No bug= screen. The Baffle =0A> had the bug=A0 =0A> screen in the drain back hole.= =0A> =0A> At a constant 5,500 or 6,000 RPM, the bug screen and sharp ended= =0A> pickup=A0 =0A> tube add to foaming and poor suction side performance.= =0A> =0A> Bigger coolers of course. You calculate the exact cooler size yo= u =0A> need=A0 =0A> then buy two of them. If you buy one, later you will ne= ed another. =0A> =0A> The other factor I saw was that the support for a gov= ernor invites =0A> the=A0 =0A> addition of a 60 pound constant speed prop, = a long way out from =0A> the mount. We=A0 =0A> don't need the engine fallin= g off in a hard pull up, or really bad =0A> bounce on =0A> landing. There i= s an established design factor for that. About 5 =0A> Gs maybe. =0A> So,=A0= here is a chance to improve on Mistral. =0A> =0A> Adding a few holes that = need to be threaded is not a deal killer. =0A> Even if=A0 =0A> you need to = go to a shop and have it done. So long as the actual =0A> pieces =0A> becom= e=A0 available to builders. An idea that escaped Mistral. =0A> =0A> Lynn E.= Hanover =0A>=A0 =0A> =0A> =0A> In a message dated 4/26/2011 4:37:37 A.M. A= tlantic Daylight Time,=A0 =0A> hjjohnson@sasktel.net writes: =0A> =0A> Lynn= , re: Strength of the Connection. =0A> I remember you stating some of those= points a while back. I'm =0A> wondering if, =0A> in our lower power state,= these are as much a concern as they are =0A> in the=A0 =0A> racing world? = It would certainly be possible to add extra parts to =0A> the =0A> install= =A0 [the thickened bottom plate, or perhaps some form of a =0A> stiffener t= hat =0A> locks=A0 the block from torque related movement front to back=A0 {= all =0A> just =0A> thoughts=A0 flashing through my brain, RHRN}. I've not = heard comment =0A> about how =0A> Mistral=A0 addressed this [or if it was a= concern of theirs?]. =0A> Kelly, do you know of any additional connection = points [dowels or =0A> pins etc] =0A> that were needed for the install of a= Mistral housing?=A0 =0A> It certainly is not my first 'pick' to have a mou= nting housing =0A> which needs=A0 =0A> modifications to a short block, to a= llow it to be=A0 installed. =0A> =0A> =0A> Jarrett Johnson =0A> _www.innove= ntion-tech.com_ (http://www.innovention-tech.com/)=A0=A0 =0A> =0A-- Home= page: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: =0Ahttp://mail.lan= caironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html --0-350683428-1303827871=:39965 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=0A
Jarrett and Lynn,
=0A
 
=0A
=         Mistral did have a Magnesium oil= sump that added considerable rigidity to the 13B and 20B block but
= =0A
in talking to their chief engineer (Anderson) there was no mention = of additional dowels, etc...............
 
=0A

Kelly Troyer<= BR>"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventuall= y)

=0A

"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"= MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

=0A

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

=0A<= DIV>
=0A

=0A
=0A
=0AFrom: H & J Joh= nson <hjjohnson@sasktel.net>
= To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>= ;
Sent: Tue, April 26, 2= 011 9:06:30 AM
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re: Mistral 'Like' Intake

=0A

Thanks Lynn, You = make a good argument. I will probably come back to you at some point here a= nd query more directly on the where's and the hows. For now I've got to ste= w on it all etc. Lots of that [thinking] going to be required in the future= to make this all work.

=0A

 

=0A

Thanks again!

Jarre= tt Johnson
www.innovention-tech.com

=0A

----- Original Messa= ge ----- =0A

From: Lehanover@aol.com =0A

Date= : Tuesday, April 26, 2011 7:20 am =0A

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re:= Mistral 'Like' Intake =0A

=0A

> The current layout obviousl= y works and has been crash tested with
> good 
> results= . The engine remained attached to the fuselage and in front
> rather= than 
> being folded under. Well, for that particular crash an= yway.
>
> I wonder who got the salvage?
>
> How= ever, if you plan to start from scratch, you have an
> opportunity t= o 
> outperform Mistral. The most recent Mistral is not the fir= st,
> although the name
> may have been different. I met Fran= ces at the engine tent at
> Sun&Fun years
> ago. He had t= he reduction unit with him. He was excited to meet
> somebody
&g= t; who  knew stuff about rotary engines. Once they had relearned all <= BR>> about
> rotaries, and  had thousands of dyno hours buil= t up, they had
> quite a package
> assembled. But  the c= ertified nut is hard to crack, and I think
> both versions
> of the company  di= ed trying.
>
> Perhaps building up a collection of products b= ased on the rotary 
> installation rather than a complete unit = that was about the cost
> of a zero time 
> Lycoming or = Continental. You have to be able to point out some
> sort of advanta= ge
> over the conventional engines. People who put car engines in > airplanes do
> it  primarily for cost reasons.
> =
> Having an installation testing here was another thing that escaped=
> me.
> One year they had the plane flying, but the oil temp= s went up so
> high so 
> fast that it could not fly to = Lakeland From Embry Riddle. So I
> made some 
> suggesti= ons. Like don't use multi grade anything. Don't use multi
> grade > aircraft  oils. Full of plastic and foams like crazy. That fills
> it with air, and
> then the  coolers stop = working. Use straight weight car oil. Its a
> car
> engine. R= acing oils  have lots of anti foaming additives lots of
> anti = scuff
> compounds and very high  film strengths. Synthetics eve= n better.
>
> Later they built their own oil pump housings an= d pickups. With
> suction 
> feeds from both ends like t= he FD pumps. No bug screen. The Baffle
> had the bug 
> = screen in the drain back hole.
>
> At a constant 5,500 or 6,0= 00 RPM, the bug screen and sharp ended
> pickup 
> tube = add to foaming and poor suction side performance.
>
> Bigger = coolers of course. You calculate the exact cooler size you
> need&nb= sp;
> then buy two of them. If you buy one, later you will need anot= her.
>
> The other factor I saw was that the support for a governor invites
> the 
> addition of a 60 pound = constant speed prop, a long way out from
> the mount. We 
&= gt; don't need the engine falling off in a hard pull up, or really bad
= > bounce on
> landing. There is an established design factor for = that. About 5
> Gs maybe.
> So,  here is a chance to imp= rove on Mistral.
>
> Adding a few holes that need to be threa= ded is not a deal killer.
> Even if 
> you need to go to= a shop and have it done. So long as the actual
> pieces
> be= come  available to builders. An idea that escaped Mistral.
> > Lynn E. Hanover
> 
>
>
> In a messa= ge dated 4/26/2011 4:37:37 A.M. Atlantic Daylight Time, 
> hjjo= hnson@sasktel.net writes:
>
> Lynn, re: Strength of the Conne= ction.
> I remember you stating some of those points a while back. I'm
> wondering if,
> in our lower power state, these = are as much a concern as they are
> in the 
> racing wor= ld? It would certainly be possible to add extra parts to
> the
&= gt; install  [the thickened bottom plate, or perhaps some form of a > stiffener that
> locks  the block from torque related mo= vement front to back  { all
> just
> thoughts  flas= hing through my brain, RHRN}. I've not heard comment
> about how > Mistral  addressed this [or if it was a concern of theirs?]. > Kelly, do you know of any additional connection points [dowels or > pins etc]
> that were needed for the install of a Mistral hous= ing? 
> It certainly is not my first 'pick' to have a mounting = housing
> which needs 
> modifications to a short block,= to allow it to be  installed.
>
>
> Jarrett Johnson
> _www.innovention-tech.com_ (http://www.innoventio= n-tech.com/)  
> =0A

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