X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nm23.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.44.150] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c3j) with SMTP id 4952594 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 19:46:24 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.44.150; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: from [98.139.44.102] by nm23.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Apr 2011 23:45:49 -0000 Received: from [98.139.44.73] by tm7.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Apr 2011 23:45:49 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1010.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Apr 2011 23:45:49 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 694939.40061.bm@omp1010.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 80226 invoked by uid 60001); 20 Apr 2011 23:45:49 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1303343149; bh=0zUw0mU6WzGf2sdmgeZKKr5z9IHpnnFutpi0vCC3qQA=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=KWG5EvEPvAOK09zxyJcFxp9bbESu8RYU1mCPW2SGHHOBqzjn2kN/welAT02FIwz+oYSRpby/pgNOE6ba5jPY6+GY42jRjSNDw82ep8vvxlkFHfhzaMgePonZCJSjLu4rWehJ0PhmU27yjR6ABz9GdF8PbyVbCrEU9ggsZK3o3bE= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=att.net; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=DWjpk2IioPaV57mb6Ohntd0eA87BLjJivqQek2KSJ0amh/on7bWepbSsIXswzRQaY16SRz+1hNSxu2B6dRtquPCMVTsE1tbKt0tlueB9FOwAU0Z2bgTA0gPGwI1/Bi1ne30X9ifZT6UEGwLS5gy5pRblwwZlcxa28gRNU9S7h/Y=; Message-ID: <509224.52287.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: KN.LJ4sVM1nbUbo9rXmgh9u.eWe_e6sAB5KKfgWjpK8hiZF Q40xJUZU9pBWxj6wyeUyKCwXvSm75d8hhDQDrsmvykRYsJNSQTZEvGo32399 jfwfI0Ux6_hvFxnerZQ2eoVcaWb4ulH0wUOpJsUrTv0MBsG3rDOarnAqhbxq Cw8dDRprqD4qiptTVuhL0ET_GAvj8nd2TjirfGxOEor4.Ufd4zObFhqzHVoa PczoAY4R2_a9ncwD0HEnCFQAcN5DjRfM72y8IZLZMIa3ABylw8Y9xlgnmHd5 oBwmnnge8tnjl6pQ65GqpNejkIBRvTxfTYC05_vU7Jj074UkAnpALUDAUytx qiWPwxdvWwejTX2Nq Received: from [208.114.35.116] by web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 16:45:49 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/559 YahooMailWebService/0.8.109.295617 References: Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 16:45:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Kelly Troyer Subject: 13B Rotary Timing & Leaning Procedure To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1789676089-1303343149=:52287" --0-1789676089-1303343149=:52287 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rotorheads we all need to "Copy , Save and or Memorize"=A0the post below fr= om =0ALynn...............IMHO=0A=A0=0AKelly Troyer=0A"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Even= tually)=0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A"MISTRAL"_Backplate/O= il Manifold=0A"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A____________________= ____________=0AFrom: "Lehanover@aol.com" =0ATo: Rotary m= otors in aircraft =0ASent: Wed, April 20, 2011= 5:42:11 PM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: My Mistral Engine Status=0A=0AYour "= Feeble" mind is right on.=0A=A0=0APeak EGTs can get to near 2,000 degrees. = Only ceramic apex seals come back from =0Athat after more than a few second= s. All of my comments apply to 12 A normally =0Aaspirated engines, but in g= eneral the data can be applied to other rotaries.=0A=0AThe object of lighti= ng the fuel in the confined space is to have the cylinder =0Apressure to = =0A=0Apeak at about 50 degrees after After Top Dead Center (ATDC). Think bi= g piston, =0Ashort stroke. So it likes high revs to make power. =0A=0A=0AFr= om too rich to run to too lean to run is a bigger range than a piston engin= e. =0A=A0The ideal power producing fire happens when the EGTs are just rich= of peak. =0APeak EGT is different on each engine, and is all over the map = as you tune the =0Aburn with timing changes, fuel type and octane and so-on= . So you have to think =0Aabout what happens with each possible change you = can make. First, the EGT probes =0Aare in the outside of any bends, 3" from= the port face. So the supersonic flow =0Apasses over the probes, and deliv= ers accurate combustion data. You may find =0Asubsonic flow returning to th= e port=A0=0Aalong the short side radius, thus the need for the probe on the= bottom of the =0Apipe or outside of the turn. =0A=0A=A0=0AOnce at speed ch= anging the timing for a specific set of conditions, changes the =0Alocation= of peak pressure. In general you will be moving away from ideal, and =0Awa= tching the revs with a fixed load will tell you this. More revs is better. = So, =0Asince an airplane is just a big expensive Dyno, you can dial up best= revs with =0Atiming variations,=A0 =0A=0Aand then with that setting record= ed, you move mixture up and down until you get =0Abest revs again. Then go = back to timing and tune again. You are looking for the =0Abest combination = of settings not just a collection of best settings unrelated to =0Aeach oth= er.=0A=A0=0AThe low EGTs suggested are for maximum power while staying well= rich of peak. =0ASo for take off and fast climb you will be=A0producing cl= ose to max power while =0Afuel cooling the engine and apex seals. It uses m= ore fuel and less engine life. =0ATo save fuel=0Ayou can lean quickly past = peak EGT to well lean of peak for low fuel consumption =0Acruise. Again tun= e for this set of conditions. Since the fuel bits are further =0Aapart (Lea= n) they tend to burn slower, so a bit more ignition advance can be =0Aused.= Keep leaning to lean miss, then back up rich a bit then add more advance = =0Aand lean again.=0A=A0=0AA monster ignition system can get you further in= to lean. Notice the low EGTs =0Aindicate low fuel consumption (and lower po= wer).=0A=0ARemember the object is peak pressure at 50 degrees ATDC. =0A=0AE= verything affects everything.=A0The OAT, the pressure, humidity. And so-on.= =0A=A0=0AI can trick factory controllers and so can you. Measure the resis= tance values of =0Athe sensors that the controller uses to determine fuel d= elivery. Then get some =0ARadio Shack pots that cover that range top and bo= ttom. Install two DPDT switches =0Awith the controllers wires on the center= lugs, the sensor wires on one end and =0Athe pot wires on the other end. N= ow in one switch position the system is as =0Astock. In the other position= =0Athe sensor is replaced with the pot, and you can change the value to tun= e the =0Aengine.=0ANow if you should loose a sensor you have a backup. Once= you have this working, =0Areplace the Chinese crap with American pieces.= =0A=A0=0AThis is not to suggest that people driving "Show Room Stock" racer= s would ever =0Astoop this low just to go fast. I would never do this. But = if you did, you would =0Ahide the switch in the heater ducting (they never = look in the ducting) and use a =0Amagnetic switch, and turn it off on exiti= ng the car=A0with that magnet in the toe =0Aof your driving shoe. The idiot= light goes out when the switch is off and all is =0Astock again. Like taki= ng candy from a baby.=0A=A0=0ALynn E. Hanover=0A=A0=0A=0AIn a message dated= 4/20/2011 4:33:35 P.M. Atlantic Daylight Time, =0Aceengland@bellsouth.net = writes:=0AI wouldn't claim to have any hands-on experience with running a r= otary =0A>(except in cars), but 'normal' internal combustion engine EGTs wo= uld go =0A>up as you lean, to a point, but should then start dropping as yo= u =0A>continue to lean. If your 'lean' setting is too rich, that might expl= ain =0A>both high EGT & high fuel consumption relative to HP. In my rather = =0A>feeble mind (based on conventional a/c engine experience), I'd expect = =0A>'rich' to yield slightly lower than max EGT for full power operation, = =0A>and 'lean' to yield significantly lower than max EGT for cruise power = =0A>settings.=0A>=0A>Unfortunately, no constructive thoughts on how to reme= dy the situation =0A>if you're running Mistral's controller....=0A>=0A>Char= lie=0A>=0A>=0A> --0-1789676089-1303343149=:52287 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=0A
Rotorheads we all need to "Copy , Save and or Memor= ize" the post below from Lynn...............IMHO
 
=0A

= Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)

=0A

"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD= 1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

=0A

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E5= 0 Turbo

=0A

=0A

=0A
=0A
=0AFrom: = "Lehanover@aol.com" <Lehanover@aol.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancairon= line.net>
Sent: Wed, = April 20, 2011 5:42:11 PM
Subject:<= /SPAN> [FlyRotary] Re: My Mistral Engine Status

=0A
Your "Feeble= " mind is right on.
=0A
 
=0A
Peak EGTs can get to near 2,000 degree= s. Only ceramic apex seals come back from that after more than a few second= s. All of my comments apply to 12 A normally aspirated engines, but in gene= ral the data can be applied to other rotaries.
=0A
 =0A
The object of lighting the fuel in the confined = space is to have the cylinder pressure to
=0A
peak at about 50 degrees after After Top Dead Center (ATDC). Think big= piston, short stroke. So it likes high revs to make power.
= =0A
 
=0A
From too rich to run to too lean= to run is a bigger range than a piston engine.  The ideal power producing fire happens when the EGTs are just rich of peak= . Peak EGT is different on each engine, and is all over the map as you tune= the burn with timing changes, fuel type and octane and so-on. So you have = to think about what happens with each possible change you can make. First, = the EGT probes are in the outside of any bends, 3" from the port face. So t= he supersonic flow passes over the probes, and delivers accurate combustion= data. You may find subsonic flow returning to the port 
= =0A
along the short side radius, thus the need for the p= robe on the bottom of the pipe or outside of the turn.
=0A 
=0A
Once at speed cha= nging the timing for a specific set of conditions, changes the location of = peak pressure. In general you will be moving away from ideal, and watching = the revs with a fixed load will tell you this. More revs is better. So, sin= ce an airplane is just a big expensive Dyno, you can dial up best revs with= timing variations, 
=0A
and then with= that setting recorded, you move mixture up and down until you get best rev= s again. Then go back to timing and tune again. You are looking for the bes= t combination of settings not just a collection of best settings unrelated = to each other.
=0A
 
=0AThe low EGTs suggested are for maximum power while staying= well rich of peak.
=0A
So for take off and= fast climb you will be producing close to max power while fuel coolin= g the engine and apex seals. It uses more fuel and less engine life. To sav= e fuel
=0A
you can lean quickly past peak EG= T to well lean of peak for low fuel consumption cruise. Again tune for this= set of conditions. Since the fuel bits are further apart (Lean) they tend = to burn slower, so a bit more ignition advance can be used. Keep leaning to= lean miss, then back up rich a bit then add more advance and lean again.
=0A
 
=0A
A monster ignition system can get you further into lean. Notice the low EG= Ts indicate low fuel consumption (and lower power).
=0A
&nb= sp;
=0A
Remember the object is peak pressure at 50 = degrees ATDC.
=0A
 
=0A
Every= thing affects everything. The OAT, the pressure,= humidity. And so-on.
=0A
 =0A
I can trick factory controllers and so can you. Me= asure the resistance values of the sensors that the controller uses to dete= rmine fuel delivery. Then get some Radio Shack pots that cover that range t= op and bottom. Install two DPDT switches with the controllers wires on the = center lugs, the sensor wires on one end and the pot wires on the other end= . Now in one switch position the system is as stock. In the other position<= /FONT>
=0A
the sensor is replaced with the pot, and= you can change the value to tune the engine.
=0A
Now if you should loose a sensor you have a backup. Once you have thi= s working, replace the Chinese crap with American pieces.
=0A 
=0A
This is not to = suggest that people driving "Show Room Stock" racers would ever stoop this = low just to go fast. I would never do this. But if you did, you would hide = the switch in the heater ducting (they never look in the ducting) and use a= magnetic switch, and turn it off on exiting the car with that magnet = in the toe of your driving shoe. The idiot light goes out when the switch i= s off and all is stock again. Like taking candy from a baby.
= =0A
 
=0A
Lynn E. Ha= nover
=0A
 
=0A
 <= /DIV>=0A
=0A
In a message dated 4/20/2011 4:33:35 P.M. Atlantic Day= light Time, ceengland@bellsouth.net writes:
=0A
I = wouldn't claim to have any hands-on experience with running a rotary
(e= xcept in cars), but 'normal' internal combustion engine EGTs would go
u= p as you lean, to a point, but should then start dropping as you
contin= ue to lean. If your 'lean' setting is too rich, that might explain
both= high EGT & high fuel consumption relative to HP. In my rather
feeb= le mind (based on conventional a/c engine experience), I'd expect
'rich= ' to yield slightly lower than max EGT for full power operation,
and 'l= ean' to yield significantly lower than max EGT for cruise power
setting= s.

Unfortunately, no constructive thoughts on how to remedy the situ= ation
if you're running Mistral's controller....

Charlie


=
--0-1789676089-1303343149=:52287--