X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nm19-vm0.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.44.172] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c3j) with SMTP id 4952446 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 16:21:27 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.44.172; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: from [98.139.44.100] by nm19.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Apr 2011 20:20:54 -0000 Received: from [98.139.44.67] by tm5.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Apr 2011 20:20:53 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1004.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Apr 2011 20:20:53 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 970193.67368.bm@omp1004.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 44697 invoked by uid 60001); 20 Apr 2011 20:20:53 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1303330853; bh=oqkEwYM4rjRaPGz5m+3ejf0scu2MxRSFKImDsYZbDnI=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=XC9yi3kt5VfYQrg4LEXlg4EyR8czQkOrnJEL5z/mPdN20l8KAw6O3dqQ8Rc0O2N4taBsx2x3ZBH3OAUVfTSKlp9jtk8E9Azu5d3c8m5TZzuUiymf2Lb5g8zMmPir9sBfkPeDABurKtzlppeJNzmnbOUPjjxwzfc5uB3yHampPmw= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=att.net; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=gkbg5lP3YyMCRq65+cR/BMhNRd3d0a5ArgXCvhovFrazWCjvHL7Ga/bSBTGa371wtAEdZZQpQlHyZ+zj1ibzI85zO8UUMKu64tm8wl1VryPYrQzxuyHBiIKqR6rVa+BBKpsodhOlkn/mW4LAm/Z8FZgoIql7obK39qZKdnqNPaA=; Message-ID: <690817.40396.qm@web83914.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: ZhTyj.IVM1nURKtMVQ.sAHKMWNT95dZpoAq8xINbdzgW6_K __oZjloDjCIbNtcVZ3stPGe.konjYesKHO7km.vODm8C1.hhaPNjhe2wwTMD HMy6FZtCEiJJeECta7xsW0kiJ3N6VfR8ob_7s3PvfIX_1qBBqswfq66AOk9U 4JGbMqy36IkeRQBrasB5jbgfVAUmeOmxrwuE5MWGEXkIZ91ftu8jc6b9uwvE Q83OZZm0xF1FWnRNUPDHZroTiwjp9irvr9oBTrQiBTca2AWnunuqROORo2fJ ozlt5jc1dX_fwy_fTiOJyZsCfOmnotlZ5.WmgVraO7Fs15RTP8dtRsVvwsHo ddevR6hn9dIgstPLg Received: from [208.114.35.116] by web83914.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 13:20:53 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/559 YahooMailWebService/0.8.109.295617 References: Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 13:20:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Kelly Troyer Subject: My Mistral Engine Status To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1266702244-1303330853=:40396" --0-1266702244-1303330853=:40396 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0A=0ASteve,=0A=A0=0A=A0=A0=A0 One=A0other thing about the "Mistral" oil/fi= lter manifold=A0that I take issue =0Awith is the regulator=A0bypass oil=A0d= oes=A0=0Anot go through the oil cooler=A0before going to the sump..........= ...This bypass =0Aoil is at sump temp which is at =0A=0Aleast 250+=A0F (=A0= probably more)...............I tossed=A0the question of sending =0Abypass o= il to the sump before the =0A=0Acooler to=A0our resident engine guru Lynn H= anover and it was his opinion that you =0Ashould not give up any =0A=0Achan= ce=A0to cool the oil so I will plumb my system that way..............FWIW (= of =0Acourse I am not flying so you=0Aknow what my opinion is probably wort= h !!).............<:)=0A=0ABest Regards,=A0=0A=A0=A0 Kelly Troyer=0A"DYKE D= ELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A"MISTR= AL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_____= ___________________________=0AFrom: Steve Thomas =0ATo: Ro= tary motors in aircraft =0ASent: Wed, April 20= , 2011 2:25:40 PM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: My Mistral Engine Status=0A=0A= I, too, changed to AN-12 hose. =A0I came to a point where i decided to make= a =0Achange to the plumbing. =A0I am now using Aeroquip Startlite hose ins= tead of the =0Astainless wrapped hose. =A0I use the Startlite for both the = oil and water cooling. =0A=A0My water hoses are -16. =A0So, when changing o= ver to Startlite from my old =0Astainless-wrapped hose, I decided to go up = a size. =A0Other than that, I'm stock. =0A=0A=0AI'll reserve judgement of t= he efficiency of the engine until I get the problem =0Asolved. =A0=0A=0A=0A= Best Regards,=0A=0ASteve Thomas=0A=0A______________________________________= _________________=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Apr 20, 2011, at 12:12 PM, Kelly T= royer wrote:=0A=0ASteve,=0A>=0A>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 From the comments of = Tracy and Al it would seem that the lack of a =0A>method to manually lean= =0A>the "Mistral" ECU is=A0keeping you from enjoying the maximum benefit of= lower fuel =0A>flow &=A0EGT......=0A>=0A>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 You mentioned = going to larger oil system hoses................What size =0A>are you curre= ntly using=0A>and what size are you contemplating............Most of the gr= oup are using =0A>AN-10.............I have the=0A>"Mistral" oil filter/mani= fold but consider the small filter restrictive so=A0I =0A>have machined a a= luminum=0A>adapter to take=A0pump oil out the side of the front hsg to a "A= DC" oil filter (27 =0A>gal/min @ 65psi)=0A>to the oil cooler to "AVIAID"=A0= external adjustable oil=A0pressure regulator (bypass =0A>oil directly to th= e=0A>oil sump) with AN-12 hose (overkill perhaps but very little restrictio= n)=0A>=0A>Best Regards=0A>=A0=A0=A0=0A>Kelly Troyer=0A>"DYKE DELTA JD2"=A0(= Eventually)=0A>"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A>"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A>"MISTRAL"_Back= plate/Oil Manifold=0A>"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A____= ____________________________=0AFrom:=A0Tracy =0A>To:=A0= Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>Sent:=A0Wed, Apr= il 20, 2011 10:32:58 AM=0A>Subject:=A0[FlyRotary] Re: My Mistral Engine Sta= tus=0A>=0A>Hi Steve,=0A>=A0=A0 When you say your EGTs are too high, what do= you consider too hot?=A0=A0 When at =0A>WOT on takeoff mine run 1840 F whi= ch sounds high but after 1800+ hours I'm =0A>convinced that this isn't too = hot.=A0=A0 In cruise I lean it down to as low as =0A>1520.=A0=A0 My exhaust= system is 321 SS, nothing exotic.=0A>=0A>If your EGT problem is due to a c= logged injector it will be obvious by very =0A>mis-matched EGTs.=A0 Unless = of course you have two partly clogged injectors which =0A>is very unlikely.= =A0=0A>=0A>BTW, do you have a manual mixture control on the Mistral system?= =0A>=0A>Tracy=0A>=0A>=0A>On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 11:12 AM, Steve Thomas=A0<= glasair2@me.com>=A0wrote:=0A>=0A>Kelly, et. al., =0A>>=0A>>=0A>>I now have = over 50 hours of flight on My Mistral engine. =A0There are problems =0A>>th= at I need to fix, but, the early results are good. =A0Here is a brief summa= ry:=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>1. =A0My oil temps are mostly under control. =A0After man= y different fixes, =0A>>including adding air exit area, splitting the incom= ing air plenum to force more =0A>>air through the oil cooler, and increasin= g the size of my oil plumbing, my =0A>>cruising temps range from 195=BAF to= 205=BAF. =A0On a hot day, the climb-out temps are =0A>>still too high and = I will be working on that. =A0Mistral uses the oil injection =0A>>system, s= o, I burn about 1 qt. every 5 to 6 hours. =A0I'm using Idemitsu 20W-50 =0A>= >right now.=0A>>2. =A0Water temps are 183=BAF. =A0I cannot get it to go hig= her under any =0A>>circumstances.=0A>>3. =A0At 50% power, my fuel flow is 1= 1 GPH rich and 9GPH lean. =A0I cannot run much =0A>>more power than that as= the EGTs are too high. =A0=0A>>4. =A0My EGTs are still too high. =A0I've b= een discussing this with the chief =0A>>engineer at Mistral, and the progno= sis is that I have a partially clogged =0A>>injector. =A0Since the fuel flo= ws are calculated, they are probably off. =A0I'm told =0A>>that =A0I need a= 10 micron filter. =A0I have a 40 micron now, but I'm told that =0A>>isn't = enough. =A0=0A>>5. =A0I believe that my air plenum scoop is too big. =A0I'v= e added a ton of exit =0A>>area, but I'm still pressurizing my cowl. =A0Coo= ling should improve if I cut down =0A>>the scoop size. =A0I'll be working o= n that. =A0=0A>>6. =A0The airplane is slow. =A0I'm hoping that I can get be= tter speeds once I cut =0A>>down on the air plenum scoop. =A0=0A>>7. =A0I'd= also like to get my muffler in the cowl, but with the technology =0A>>curr= ently available, I don't see how. =A0Mufflers are just not there. =A0Mark = =0A>>Steitle is having good results with his DNA, but they have been discon= tinued. I =0A>>don't see anything out there that will do the job. =A0The ta= ngential style =0A>>mufflers are too power-robbing. =A0SpinTec mufflers hav= e been recommended in the =0A>>past, but their shapes are not very aerodyna= mic. =A0Anyone that might have a good =0A>>suggestion, I'm listening. =A0= =A0=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>Best Regards,=0A>>=0A>>Steve Thomas=0A>>=0A>>____________= ___________________________________________=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>= =0A>>On Apr 20, 2011, at 7:23 AM, Kelly Troyer wrote:=0A>>=0A>>Steve,=0A>>>= =0A>>>=A0=A0 Other than the muffler how is your ship and its complete "Mist= ral" firewall =0A>>>forward installation=0A>>>doing ?..................Are = your cooling systems doing the job and is the =0A>>>Mistral "FADEC" single= =0A>>>lever fuel and ignition ECU keeping the EGT under control ?..........= ..I am sure =0A>>>the=A0Rotary group=0A>>>would be interested in hearing so= me of your numbers such as fuel flow, EGT, oil =0A>>>and coolant=0A>>>temps= , etc................=0A>>>=0A>>>Best Regards,=A0=A0=0A>>>=0A>>>Kelly Troye= r=0A>>>"DYKE DELTA JD2"=A0(Eventually)=0A>>>"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A>>>"RWS"= _RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A>>>"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A>>>"TURBONETICS"_TO4E= 50 Turbo=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A________________________________= =0AFrom:=A0Steve Thomas =0A>>>To:=A0Rotary motors in aircr= aft =0A>>>Sent:=A0Tue, April 19, 2011 6:24:20 = PM=0A>>>Subject:=A0[FlyRotary] Burns Stainless Muffler Failure=0A>>>=0A>>>I= just did an inspection of my muffler and found that it was basically comin= g =0A>>>apart inside.=A0 This is a Burns Stainless, 17" 2-Stage muffler aft= er 50 hours of =0A>>>flying behind a 2-rotor engine.=A0 Now, it could be th= at 50 hours is a reasonable =0A>>>life for something like this, I don't kno= w.=A0 But, it certainly confirms the =0A>>>stories of muffler disintegratio= n.=A0 I've inspected this muffler several times =0A>>>over the last 50 hour= s, but this is the first time that I've seen damage.=A0 But, =0A>>>when it = comes apart, it really comes apart.=A0 It is unfortunate, as the muffler = =0A>>>was really effective in reducing the noise and was light-weight.=A0= =A0=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>Best Regards,=0A>>>=0A>>>Steve Thomas=0A>>>=0A>>>_____= ________________=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>=0A>--=0A>= Homepage: =A0http://www.flyrotary.com/=0A>Archive and UnSub: =A0=A0http://m= ail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html=0A>=0A --0-1266702244-1303330853=:40396 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
=0A
Steve,
=0A
 
=0A
    On= e other thing about the "Mistral" oil/filter manifold that I take= issue with is the regulator bypass oil does 
= =0A
not go through the oil cooler before going to t= he sump.............This bypass oil is at sump temp which is at =0A
least 250+ F ( probably more)...........= ....I tossed the question of sending bypass oil to the sump before the=
=0A
cooler to our resident engine gur= u Lynn Hanover and it was his opinion that you should not give up any =0A
chance to cool the oil so I will plumb my sys= tem that way..............FWIW (of course I am not flying so you=0A
know what my opinion is probably worth !!)........= .....<:)
=0A
 
=0A
Best Reg= ards, 
=0A
 
  Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2"= (Eventually)
=0A

"13B ROTARY"= _ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

=0A"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

=0A

=0A

=0A
=0A
=0AFrom: Steve Thomas <glasair2@me.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrota= ry@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wed, April 20, 2011 2:25:40 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: My Mistral Engine Status
<= BR>I, too, changed to AN-12 hose.  I came to a point where i dec= ided to make a change to the plumbing.  I am now using Aeroquip Startl= ite hose instead of the stainless wrapped hose.  I use the Startlite f= or both the oil and water cooling.  My water hoses are -16.  So, = when changing over to Startlite from my old stainless-wrapped hose, I decid= ed to go up a size.  Other than that, I'm stock. =0A

=0A=
I'll reserve judgement of the efficiency of the engine until I get the= problem solved.  
=0A
=0A

Best Regards,

Steve Thomas

= _______________________________________________________


<= BR>

=0A
=0A
On Apr 20, 2011, at 12= :12 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote:

=0A<= BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
Steve,
=0A
 
=0A
     &n= bsp;  From the comments of Tracy and Al it would seem that the lack of= a method to manually lean
=0A
the "Mistral"= ECU is keeping you from enjoying the maximum benefit of lower fuel fl= ow & EGT......
=0A
 
=0A<= DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px">       You mentione= d going to larger oil system hoses................What size are you current= ly using
=0A
and what size are you contempla= ting............Most of the group are using AN-10.............I have the=0A
"Mistral" oil filter/manifold but consider= the small filter restrictive so I have machined a aluminum
=0Aadapter to take pump oil out the side of the = front hsg to a "ADC" oil filter (27 gal/min @ 65psi)
=0A
to the oil cooler to "AVIAID" external adjustable oil&nbs= p;pressure regulator (bypass oil directly to the
=0A
oil sump) with AN-12 hose (overkill perhaps but very little restri= ction)
=0A
 
=0A
Best Regards
=0A
   =
=0A

Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2"<= SPAN class=3DApple-converted-space> (Eventually)=

=0A

"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MI= STRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

=0A

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

=0A
=0A

=0A
=0A
=0AFrom:<= /B> Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com>
To: R= otary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wed, = April 20, 2011 10:32:58 AM
Subject:=  [FlyRotary] Re:= My Mistral Engine Status

Hi Steve,
   When you = say your EGTs are too high, what do you consider too hot?   When = at WOT on takeoff mine run 1840 F which sounds high but after 1800+ hours I'm convinced that this isn't too hot. &nb= sp; In cruise I lean it down to as low as 1520.   My exhaust syst= em is 321 SS, nothing exotic.

If your EGT problem is due to a clogge= d injector it will be obvious by very mis-matched EGTs.  Unless of cou= rse you have two partly clogged injectors which is very unlikely. 

BTW, do you have a manual mi= xture control on the Mistral system?

Tracy

=0A
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 11:12 AM, Steve Tho= mas <glasair2@me.com> wrote:
=0A
=0A
Kell= y, et. al., =0A

=0A
I now have over 50 hours of flight on My Mistral engine.  There= are problems that I need to fix, but, the early results are good.  He= re is a brief summary:
=0A

=0A1.  My oil temps are mostly under control. &nbs= p;After many different fixes, including adding air exit area, splitting the= incoming air plenum to force more air through the oil cooler, and increasi= ng the size of my oil plumbing, my cruising temps range from 195=BAF to 205= =BAF.  On a hot day, the climb-out temps are still too high and I will= be working on that.  Mistral uses the oil injection system, so, I bur= n about 1 qt. every 5 to 6 hours.  I'm using Idemitsu 20W-50 right now= .
=0A
2.  Water temps are 183=BAF. &nbs= p;I cannot get it to go higher under any circumstances.
=0A
3.  At 50% power, my fuel flow is 11 GPH rich and 9GP= H lean.  I cannot run much more power than that as the EGTs are too hi= gh.  
=0A
4.  My EGTs are still to= o high.  I've been discussing this with the chief engineer at Mistral,= and the prognosis is that I have a partially clogged injector.  Since= the fuel flows are calculated, they are probably off.  I'm told that =  I need a 10 micron filter.  I have a 40 micron now, but I'm told= that isn't enough.  
=0A
5.  I be= lieve that my air plenum scoop is too big.  I've added a ton of exit a= rea, but I'm still pressurizing my cowl.  Cooling should improve if I = cut down the scoop size.  I'll be working on that.  
=0A6.  The airplane is slow.  I'm hoping that= I can get better speeds once I cut down on the air plenum scoop.  =0A
7.  I'd also like to get my muffler i= n the cowl, but with the technology currently available, I don't see how. &= nbsp;Mufflers are just not there.  Mark Steitle is having good results= with his DNA, but they have been discontinued. I don't see anything out th= ere that will do the job.  The tangential style mufflers are too power= -robbing.  SpinTec mufflers have been recommended in the past, but the= ir shapes are not very aerodynamic.  Anyone that might have a good sug= gestion, I'm listening.   
=0A
= =0A

Best Regards,
<= BR>Steve Thomas

______________________________________________= _________





=0A
=0A
On Apr 20, 2011, at 7:23= AM, Kelly Troyer wrote:

=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
Steve,
=0A
 
=0A
   Other th= an the muffler how is your ship and its complete "Mistral" firewall forward= installation
=0A
doing ?..................A= re your cooling systems doing the job and is the Mistral "FADEC" single=0A
lever fuel and ignition ECU keeping the EGT= under control ?............I am sure the Rotary group
=0A
would be interested in hearing some of your numbers suc= h as fuel flow, EGT, oil and coolant
=0A
tem= ps, etc................
=0A
 
=0A<= DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px">Best Regards,  
=0A
 
=0A
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Even= tually)
=0A

"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

=0A

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

= =0A

=0A

=0A
=0A
=0AFrom: Steve Thomas <glasair2@me.com>
= To: Rotary m= otors in aircraft <fly= rotary@lancaironline.net>
Se= nt: Tue, April 19, 2011 6:24:20 PM
Subject: [FlyRota= ry] Burns Stainless Muffler Failure

I just did an inspection = of my muffler and found that it was basically coming apart inside.  Th= is is a Burns Stainless, 17" 2-Stage muffler after 50 hours of flying behin= d a 2-rotor engine.  Now, it could be that 50 hours is a reasonable li= fe for something like this, I don't know.  But, it certainly confirms the stories of muffle= r disintegration.  I've inspected this muffler several times over the = last 50 hours, but this is the first time that I've seen damage.  But,= when it comes apart, it really comes apart.  It is unfortunate, as th= e muffler was really effective in reducing the noise and was light-weight.&= nbsp; 


Best Regards,

Steve Thomas
_____________________





=0A
<ADC Oil Filter.jpg>--
Homepage:=  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:   http://m= ail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html

--0-1266702244-1303330853=:40396--