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Sat, 05 Mar 2011 08:58:14 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/559 YahooMailWebService/0.8.109.292656 References: Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 08:58:14 -0800 (PST) From: Kelly Troyer Subject: Re: Knock sensor and indicator To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-498277699-1299344294=:27294" --0-498277699-1299344294=:27294 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Guys,=0A=A0=A0 One other=A0point that I forgot to mention was=A0ignition ti= ming..........It is =0Amy understanding=0Athat turboed engines should not u= se excessive timing advance and that the higher =0Athe =0A=0Aboost the less= timing advance is needed (or wise).........As=A0I recall=A0ignition =0Atim= ing as high=0Aas 27 + degrees BTDC=A0has/is used for naturally aspirated ro= tarys.........Lynn =0Ahas stated=0Amany times that 20+ degrees BTDC is actu= ally plenty for most use and not much =0Amore=0Athan that probably should b= e used for our turbo engines............Again Lynn =0Ajump in=A0here=0Aand = give us the straight info..............=A0=A0=0A=A0=0AKelly Troyer=0A"DYKE = DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A"MIST= RAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A____= ____________________________=0AFrom: Kelly Troyer =0ATo: Ro= tary motors in aircraft =0ASent: Sat, March 5,= 2011 9:56:53 AM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: Knock sensor and indicator=0A= =0A=0AJohn, Chris,=0A=A0=A0=A0=A0 I just remembered one other tidbit of inf= o from our rotary guru =0ALynn.........One of=0Ahis informative posts on fu= el and the effects of octane ratings stated that as =0Ayou lean=0Athe auto = fuel that many of us use (87 to 91 octane) that the flame front is =0Aslowe= d and=0Athis mimics the effect of=A0lead in fuel=A0(100 octane+) and makes = the leaned=A0auto =0Afuel =0A=0Aless prone to detonation at the same time l= owering EGT temps........I see no =0Areason =0A=0Athis cannot work the=A0sa= me way with our=A0turbo engines...........Hopfully Lynn =0Awill jump=0Ain h= ere and give us the straight info if I have this wrong...........=0A=A0=A0= =0AKelly Troyer=0A"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A"R= WS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 = Turbo=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Kelly Troyer <= keltro@att.net>=0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft =0ASent: Sat, March 5, 2011 8:50:51 AM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: Knock s= ensor and indicator=0A=0A=0AJohn,=0A=A0=A0 As you said=A0Chris's problem is= probably a combination of factors..........You =0Amentioned your =0A=0Aint= ercooled intake temps being about 130F during climb..........Info I have = =0Aabout intercooling=0Aused 130F as a desired max=A0boosted intake temp...= .......What are=A0your =0Atypical=A0intake temps at =0A=0Acruise and what m= anifold pressures (or PSI) do you=A0use at takeoff, climb and =0Acruise....= ....Also=0Awhat is your EGT at cruise ?.............=0A=0AThanks,=A0=0A=A0= =A0=0AKelly Troyer=0A"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engine= =0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A"TURBONETICS"_TO= 4E50 Turbo=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: John Slad= e =0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft =0ASent: Sat, March 5, 2011 7:54:20 AM=0ASubject: [FlyRotar= y] Re: Knock sensor and indicator=0A=0A>Perhaps too much ignition timing or= =A0mixture problems such as spending to much =0A>time at best =0A>=0A>power= mixture (1700+ f EGT) instead of richer than best power before leaning =0A= >quickly to=A0lean of peak=A0EGT.=0AYes, possibly. I always run rich, espec= ially during run-up and take-off. By =0Arunning rich, I mean I turn the mix= ture knob to 2 or 3pm. My EC2 is adjusted as =0Abest I could, and seems to = keep the mixture about right,=A0 - but I still turn it =0Arich for high pow= er ops. My EGT alarm is set at 1750, and I occasionally have to =0Areset it= and back off the throttle during climb. Perhaps I'm being too =0Aconservat= ive here. =0A=0A=0AIts been a while since I checked it, but I seem to recal= l intake temp (after the =0Aintercooler) being around 130 during climb. The= airflow to my intercooler =0Acould/should be improved.=0A=0AIt's possible = that Chris is overdoing the static high power runs. I mostly did =0Amine du= ring high speed taxi tests and was always mindful of the temps. I think I = =0Aread that Chris runs high power static for 15 mins at a time. I never ra= n full =0Apower static for more than a minute or two. =0A=0A=0ANo - I don't= aggressively lean at cruise - I set the mixture at 12 and let the =0AEC2 d= o it's thing. Besides - Chris hasn't reached cruise YET, so I doubt it's = =0Athat. As you say - it has to be timing, mixture or intake temps, or a = =0Acombination of the three, possibly combined with "destructive testing" o= n the =0Aground (which I did in the air :).=0A=0AChris - what oil are you u= sing? I used Mobil dino oil during initial testing and =0AMobil 1 thereafte= r.=0A=0ARegards,=0AJohn=0A=0A=0AOn 3/4/2011 11:39 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote: = =0AJohn,=0A>=A0=A0=A0 =A0Chris is using Tracy's apex seals (2mm) which are = fairly tough and is only =0A>using =0A>=0A>about 3 psi boost so any ideas o= n what is causing=A0detonation =0A>?............Perhaps too=A0 =0A>=0A>much= ignition timing or=A0mixture problems such as spending to much time at bes= t =0A>power mixture (1700+ f EGT) instead of richer than best power before = leaning =0A>quickly to=A0lean of peak=A0EGT..........What EGT temps do you = routinely see during=0A>takeoff, climb and cruise ?..........Do you aggress= ively lean at cruise =0A>?............=0A>=0A>Thanks,=A0=A0=0A>=A0=0A>Kelly= Troyer=0A>"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A>"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A>"RWS"_R= D1C/EC2/EM2=0A>"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A>"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Tur= bo=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A________________________________=0AFrom: John Slad= e =0A>To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>Sent: Fri, March 4, 2011 4:30:29 PM=0A>Subject: [FlyRo= tary] Re: Knock sensor and indicator=0A>=0A>On 3/4/2011 4:43 PM, Kelly Troy= er wrote:=0A>> engine runs reported by Chris at high manifold pressure, hig= h coolant temps and =0A>>as you mentioned=0A>> probably high intake temps w= ith little or no airflow across the =0A>>intercooler.............=0A>I did = many, many engine runs and high speed taxi tests prior to flight, often =0A= >with the temps at the limits. On occasion I was able to hear "pre-ignition= " and =0A>back off the throttle. There was no sign of damage to my seals - = but mine are =0A>3mm 'indestructible' seals from Tracy.=0A>John Slade=0A>= =0A>--=0A>Homepage:=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/=0A>Archive and UnSub:=A0 h= ttp://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html=0A>=0A --0-498277699-1299344294=:27294 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=0A
Guys,
=0A
   One other poin= t that I forgot to mention was ignition timing..........It is my under= standing
=0A
that turboed engines should not use excessive timing = advance and that the higher the
=0A
boost the less timing advance= is needed (or wise).........As I recall ignition timing as high<= /DIV>=0A
as 27 + degrees BTDC has/is used for naturally aspirated = rotarys.........Lynn has stated
=0A
many times that 20+ degrees BT= DC is actually plenty for most use and not much more
=0A
than that= probably should be used for our turbo engines............Again Lynn jump i= n here
=0A
and give us the straight info.............. &= nbsp;
 
=0A

Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DEL= TA JD2" (Eventually)

=0A

"13B RO= TARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

= =0A

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

=0A

=0A

=0A
= =0A
=0AFrom: Kelly Troyer <keltro@att.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <fl= yrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent:= Sat, March 5, 2011 9:56:53 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Knock sensor and indicator

=0A
=0A
=0A
John, Chris,
=0A
  &nbs= p;  I just remembered one other tidbit of info from our rotary guru Ly= nn.........One of
=0A
his informative posts on fuel and the effect= s of octane ratings stated that as you lean
=0A
the auto fuel that= many of us use (87 to 91 octane) that the flame front is slowed and
= =0A
this mimics the effect of lead in fuel (100 octane+) and = makes the leaned auto fuel
=0A
less prone to detonation at t= he same time lowering EGT temps........I see no reason
=0A
this c= annot work the same way with our turbo engines...........Hopfully= Lynn will jump
=0A
in here and give us the straight info if I hav= e this wrong...........
=0A
  
=0A

Kelly Troyer"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually= )

=0A

"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"M= ISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

=0A

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

=0A
=0A

=0A
=0A
=0AFrom: Kelly Troyer <= ;keltro@att.net>
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, March 5, 2011 8:50:51 AMSubject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Knock sensor and indicator

=0A
=0A
=0A
John,=0A
   As you said Chris's problem is probably a combin= ation of factors..........You mentioned your
=0A
intercooled inta= ke temps being about 130F during climb..........Info I have about intercool= ing
=0A
used 130F as a desired max boosted intake temp.......= ...What are your typical intake temps at
=0A
cruise and= what manifold pressures (or PSI) do you use at takeoff, climb and cru= ise........Also
=0A
what is your EGT at cruise ?.............=0A
 
=0A
Thanks, 
=0A
  
= =0A

Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)

=0A

"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS= "_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

=0A

"TURBONETICS"_T= O4E50 Turbo

=0A

=0A

=0A
=0A
=0AFrom:<= /B> John Slade <jslade@canardaviation.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancai= ronline.net>
Sent: Sa= t, March 5, 2011 7:54:20 AM
Subject= : [FlyRotary] Re: Knock sensor and indicator

>P= erhaps too much ignition timing or mixture problems such as spending t= o much time at best =0A
>power mixture (1700+ f EGT) instead of rich= er than best power before leaning quickly to lean of peak EGT.Yes, possibly. I always run rich, especially during run-up and take-off. B= y running rich, I mean I turn the mixture knob to 2 or 3pm. My EC2 is adjus= ted as best I could, and seems to keep the mixture about right,  - but= I still turn it rich for high power ops. My EGT alarm is set at 1750, and = I occasionally have to reset it and back off the throttle during climb. Per= haps I'm being too conservative here.

Its been a while since I chec= ked it, but I seem to recall intake temp (after the intercooler) being arou= nd 130 during climb. The airflow to my intercooler could/should be improved= .

It's possible that Chris is overdoing the static high power runs. = I mostly did mine during high speed taxi tests and was always mindful of th= e temps. I think I read that Chris runs high power static for 15 mins at a = time. I never ran full power static for more than a minute or two.

No - I don't = aggressively lean at cruise - I set the mixture at 12 and let the EC2 do it= 's thing. Besides - Chris hasn't reached cruise YET, so I doubt it's that. = As you say - it has to be timing, mixture or intake temps, or a combination= of the three, possibly combined with "destructive testing" on the ground (= which I did in the air :).

Chris - what oil are you using? I used Mo= bil dino oil during initial testing and Mobil 1 thereafter.

Regards,=
John


On 3/4/2011 11:39 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote: =0A=0A
=0A
John,
=0A
     = ;Chris is using Tracy's apex seals (2mm) which are fairly tough and is only= using
=0A
about 3 psi boost so any ideas on what is causing = ;detonation ?............Perhaps too 
=0A
much ignition timi= ng or mixture problems such as spending to much time at best
=0A=
power mixture (1700+ f EGT) instead of richer than best power before l= eaning
=0A
quickly to lean of peak EGT..........What EG= T temps do you routinely see during
=0A
takeoff, climb and cruise = ?..........Do you aggressively lean at cruise ?............
=0A
&n= bsp;
=0A
Thanks,  
 
=0A

Kelly Troyer
= "DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)<= /FONT>

=0A

"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MIS= TRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

=0A

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

=0A
=0A

=0A
=0A
= =0AFrom: John Slade <js= lade@canardaviation.com>
To:= Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net&= gt;
Sent: Fri, March= 4, 2011 4:30:29 PM
Subject:= [FlyRotary] Re: Knock sensor and indicator

On 3/4/2011 4= :43 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote:
> engine runs reported by Chris at high m= anifold pressure, high coolant temps and as you mentioned
> probably = high intake temps with little or no airflow across the intercooler.........= ....
I did many, many engine runs and high speed taxi tests prior to flight, often with the temp= s at the limits. On occasion I was able to hear "pre-ignition" and back off= the throttle. There was no sign of damage to my seals - but mine are 3mm '= indestructible' seals from Tracy.
John Slade

--
Homepage: = ; http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:  http://mail.lancair= online.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
<= BR>
--0-498277699-1299344294=:27294--