X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nm3.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.91.73] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c2o) with SMTP id 4892009 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 05 Mar 2011 10:57:30 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.91.73; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: from [98.139.91.68] by nm3.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Mar 2011 15:56:53 -0000 Received: from [98.139.91.2] by tm8.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Mar 2011 15:56:53 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1002.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Mar 2011 15:56:53 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 577435.6896.bm@omp1002.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 57400 invoked by uid 60001); 5 Mar 2011 15:56:53 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1299340613; bh=UXM3j1/ycZaCLmnk/UrxQtcHDa0nXTwMUasLDRrmcHs=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=gl3/VqR8xJBSoy/Dajdm3UAqFIoC8pymkiYFLfKYVqg3Wyp1eiOnNu2gbXb6Uh5E2hO7dbCdCmWMd3z+6gcGJnGBlGUDfX/V/ggc9wybcPfflgYz/15CfhKBSmYeteenUbgbuyLkCZXp3QzKLXBlWREAXAup72cwLLBi8P6gcCI= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=att.net; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=JRgPWC9mfC2AZE4H8BXvX1PXkAVqoPtqG8ivSg9X0rBpi/NikeBSxH1F8Jw1WtBH6Y7GZplH/REwXqF4FW0eJCHPstnApQgWaxcyC+HvUZYoi7yIO6DtnZo+SEEoZTh1u7yPllsfqsstg6AF/Glw/6YAHmIuVHkw2IPly6I2QZA=; Message-ID: <443374.55136.qm@web83915.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: X6ZjtOcVM1msG0QGMEiroOh4IOgnHRaJOPNuJxEqARpC4P4 OfRM29T15ELuL1UO5f_XmLyEfIrtynhEwiYBOxv96OBOKc45CB1bUU5Lezxf 3sidUpFrRnzGl2srSrd5.HQqkxHXGpexfveRD8ietbyN8GjJkxt1KsfTag9e cEpKwBx2eX.9F1_ZoBUhjjfBHVzV5.qgtHgRh11aE9F9GfFOuCSkoE62dbI4 gt.E99zQvyDJ7ZhZcYdqBHvh5So9Xw47LoKKUZ70q.PAUJJ6GMuA_gMMp.lO kPMuPs_bG3A-- Received: from [208.114.47.246] by web83915.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 05 Mar 2011 07:56:53 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/559 YahooMailWebService/0.8.109.292656 References: Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 07:56:53 -0800 (PST) From: Kelly Troyer Subject: Re: Knock sensor and indicator To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1463537683-1299340613=:55136" --0-1463537683-1299340613=:55136 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John, Chris,=0A=A0=A0=A0=A0 I just remembered one other tidbit of info from= our rotary guru =0ALynn.........One of=0Ahis informative posts on fuel and= the effects of octane ratings stated that as =0Ayou lean=0Athe auto fuel t= hat many of us use (87 to 91 octane) that the flame front is =0Aslowed and= =0Athis mimics the effect of=A0lead in fuel=A0(100 octane+) and makes the l= eaned=A0auto =0Afuel =0A=0Aless prone to detonation at the same time loweri= ng EGT temps........I see no =0Areason =0A=0Athis cannot work the=A0same wa= y with our=A0turbo engines...........Hopfully Lynn =0Awill jump=0Ain here a= nd give us the straight info if I have this wrong...........=0A=A0=A0=0AKel= ly Troyer=0A"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A"RWS"_RD= 1C/EC2/EM2=0A"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo= =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Kelly Troyer =0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A= Sent: Sat, March 5, 2011 8:50:51 AM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: Knock sensor= and indicator=0A=0A=0AJohn,=0A=A0=A0 As you said=A0Chris's problem is prob= ably a combination of factors..........You =0Amentioned your =0A=0Aintercoo= led intake temps being about 130F during climb..........Info I have =0Aabou= t intercooling=0Aused 130F as a desired max=A0boosted intake temp..........= What are=A0your =0Atypical=A0intake temps at =0A=0Acruise and what manifold= pressures (or PSI) do you=A0use at takeoff, climb and =0Acruise........Als= o=0Awhat is your EGT at cruise ?.............=0A=0AThanks,=A0=0A=A0=A0=0AKe= lly Troyer=0A"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A"RWS"_R= D1C/EC2/EM2=0A"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo= =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: John Slade =0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft =0ASent: Sat, March 5, 2011 7:54:20 AM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: Kno= ck sensor and indicator=0A=0A>Perhaps too much ignition timing or=A0mixture= problems such as spending to much =0A>time at best =0A>=0A>power mixture (= 1700+ f EGT) instead of richer than best power before leaning =0A>quickly t= o=A0lean of peak=A0EGT.=0AYes, possibly. I always run rich, especially duri= ng run-up and take-off. By =0Arunning rich, I mean I turn the mixture knob = to 2 or 3pm. My EC2 is adjusted as =0Abest I could, and seems to keep the m= ixture about right,=A0 - but I still turn it =0Arich for high power ops. My= EGT alarm is set at 1750, and I occasionally have to =0Areset it and back = off the throttle during climb. Perhaps I'm being too =0Aconservative here. = =0A=0A=0AIts been a while since I checked it, but I seem to recall intake t= emp (after the =0Aintercooler) being around 130 during climb. The airflow t= o my intercooler =0Acould/should be improved.=0A=0AIt's possible that Chris= is overdoing the static high power runs. I mostly did =0Amine during high = speed taxi tests and was always mindful of the temps. I think I =0Aread tha= t Chris runs high power static for 15 mins at a time. I never ran full =0Ap= ower static for more than a minute or two. =0A=0A=0ANo - I don't aggressive= ly lean at cruise - I set the mixture at 12 and let the =0AEC2 do it's thin= g. Besides - Chris hasn't reached cruise YET, so I doubt it's =0Athat. As y= ou say - it has to be timing, mixture or intake temps, or a =0Acombination = of the three, possibly combined with "destructive testing" on the =0Aground= (which I did in the air :).=0A=0AChris - what oil are you using? I used Mo= bil dino oil during initial testing and =0AMobil 1 thereafter.=0A=0ARegards= ,=0AJohn=0A=0A=0AOn 3/4/2011 11:39 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote: =0AJohn,=0A>=A0= =A0=A0 =A0Chris is using Tracy's apex seals (2mm) which are fairly tough an= d is only =0A>using =0A>=0A>about 3 psi boost so any ideas on what is causi= ng=A0detonation =0A>?............Perhaps too=A0 =0A>=0A>much ignition timin= g or=A0mixture problems such as spending to much time at best =0A>power mix= ture (1700+ f EGT) instead of richer than best power before leaning =0A>qui= ckly to=A0lean of peak=A0EGT..........What EGT temps do you routinely see d= uring=0A>takeoff, climb and cruise ?..........Do you aggressively lean at c= ruise =0A>?............=0A>=0A>Thanks,=A0=A0=0A>=A0=0A>Kelly Troyer=0A>"DYK= E DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A>"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A>"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A>= "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A>"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A>=0A>=0A>= =0A>=0A>=0A________________________________=0AFrom: John Slade =0A>To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>Sent: Fri, March 4, 2011 4:30:29 PM=0A>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Knoc= k sensor and indicator=0A>=0A>On 3/4/2011 4:43 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote:=0A>>= engine runs reported by Chris at high manifold pressure, high coolant temp= s and =0A>>as you mentioned=0A>> probably high intake temps with little or = no airflow across the =0A>>intercooler.............=0A>I did many, many eng= ine runs and high speed taxi tests prior to flight, often =0A>with the temp= s at the limits. On occasion I was able to hear "pre-ignition" and =0A>back= off the throttle. There was no sign of damage to my seals - but mine are = =0A>3mm 'indestructible' seals from Tracy.=0A>John Slade=0A>=0A>--=0A>Homep= age:=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/=0A>Archive and UnSub:=A0 http://mail.lanc= aironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html=0A>=0A --0-1463537683-1299340613=:55136 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=0A
John, Chris,
=0A
     = I just remembered one other tidbit of info from our rotary guru Lynn.......= ..One of
=0A
his informative posts on fuel and the effects of octa= ne ratings stated that as you lean
=0A
the auto fuel that many of = us use (87 to 91 octane) that the flame front is slowed and
=0A
th= is mimics the effect of lead in fuel (100 octane+) and makes the = leaned auto fuel
=0A
less prone to detonation at the same ti= me lowering EGT temps........I see no reason
=0A
this cannot work= the same way with our turbo engines...........Hopfully Lynn will= jump
=0A
in here and give us the straight info if I have this wro= ng...........
=0A
  
=0A

Kelly Troyer
= "DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)

=0A

"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Ba= ckplate/Oil Manifold

=0A

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

=0A

=0A

=0A
=0A
=0AFrom: Kelly Troyer <keltro@at= t.net>
To: Rotary mot= ors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, March 5, 2011 8:50:51 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Knock sens= or and indicator

=0A
=0A
=0A
John,
=0A
&= nbsp;  As you said Chris's problem is probably a combination of f= actors..........You mentioned your
=0A
intercooled intake temps b= eing about 130F during climb..........Info I have about intercooling
= =0A
used 130F as a desired max boosted intake temp..........What a= re your typical intake temps at
=0A
cruise and what man= ifold pressures (or PSI) do you use at takeoff, climb and cruise......= ..Also
=0A
what is your EGT at cruise ?.............
=0A
=  
=0A
Thanks, 
=0A
  
=0A

Kell= y Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (= Eventually)

=0A

"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2= /EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

=0A

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turb= o

=0A

=0A

=0A
=0A<= HR SIZE=3D1>=0AFrom: John S= lade <jslade@canardaviation.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.ne= t>
Sent: Sat, March 5= , 2011 7:54:20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Knock sensor and indicator

>Perhaps too= much ignition timing or mixture problems such as spending to much tim= e at best =0A
>power mixture (1700+ f EGT) instead of richer than be= st power before leaning quickly to lean of peak EGT.
Yes, poss= ibly. I always run rich, especially during run-up and take-off. By running = rich, I mean I turn the mixture knob to 2 or 3pm. My EC2 is adjusted as bes= t I could, and seems to keep the mixture about right,  - but I still t= urn it rich for high power ops. My EGT alarm is set at 1750, and I occasion= ally have to reset it and back off the throttle during climb. Perhaps I'm b= eing too conservative here.

Its been a while since I checked it, bu= t I seem to recall intake temp (after the intercooler) being around 130 dur= ing climb. The airflow to my intercooler could/should be improved.

I= t's possible that Chris is overdoing the static high power runs. I mostly d= id mine during high speed taxi tests and was always mindful of the temps. I= think I read that Chris runs high power static for 15 mins at a time. I ne= ver ran full power static for more than a minute or two.

No - I don't = aggressively lean at cruise - I set the mixture at 12 and let the EC2 do it= 's thing. Besides - Chris hasn't reached cruise YET, so I doubt it's that. = As you say - it has to be timing, mixture or intake temps, or a combination= of the three, possibly combined with "destructive testing" on the ground (= which I did in the air :).

Chris - what oil are you using? I used Mo= bil dino oil during initial testing and Mobil 1 thereafter.

Regards,=
John


On 3/4/2011 11:39 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote: =0A=0A
=0A
John,
=0A
     = ;Chris is using Tracy's apex seals (2mm) which are fairly tough and is only= using
=0A
about 3 psi boost so any ideas on what is causing = ;detonation ?............Perhaps too 
=0A
much ignition timi= ng or mixture problems such as spending to much time at best
=0A=
power mixture (1700+ f EGT) instead of richer than best power before l= eaning
=0A
quickly to lean of peak EGT..........What EG= T temps do you routinely see during
=0A
takeoff, climb and cruise = ?..........Do you aggressively lean at cruise ?............
=0A
&n= bsp;
=0A
Thanks,  
 
=0A

Kelly Troyer
= "DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)<= /FONT>

=0A

"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MIS= TRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

=0A

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

=0A
=0A

=0A
=0A
= =0AFrom: John Slade <js= lade@canardaviation.com>
To:= Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net&= gt;
Sent: Fri, March= 4, 2011 4:30:29 PM
Subject:= [FlyRotary] Re: Knock sensor and indicator

On 3/4/2011 4= :43 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote:
> engine runs reported by Chris at high m= anifold pressure, high coolant temps and as you mentioned
> probably = high intake temps with little or no airflow across the intercooler.........= ....
I did many, many engine runs and high speed taxi tests prior to flight, often with the temp= s at the limits. On occasion I was able to hear "pre-ignition" and back off= the throttle. There was no sign of damage to my seals - but mine are 3mm '= indestructible' seals from Tracy.
John Slade

--
Homepage: = ; http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:  http://mail.lancair= online.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
<= BR>
--0-1463537683-1299340613=:55136--