X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nm13.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.44.140] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c2o) with SMTP id 4891940 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 05 Mar 2011 09:51:29 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.44.140; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: from [98.139.44.105] by nm13.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Mar 2011 14:50:52 -0000 Received: from [98.139.44.92] by tm10.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Mar 2011 14:50:52 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1029.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Mar 2011 14:50:52 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 346873.31937.bm@omp1029.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 92983 invoked by uid 60001); 5 Mar 2011 14:50:52 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1299336652; bh=Ecyrz9FqO/AzsN+6m1WXJKsUTehh7U9q9EEAAbO7NFU=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=Opz+UewfdySGmUFeEkdsdIx6e+kXi+9DcRGraU18cluqukYWNeMETfxByQysFVVVIifwlAZbmPlkwaRZP3QMHz9bsWQd4kWj0DRqbOLlF3a73er6ZL0Zei0w7FIz84HvUoCV6zInAmzkw1VvwO4YVHZ4ielSdGjI9D+Mngtf5po= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=att.net; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=VfzwpnSGeRD3x82qp4witjATioaABNSbssbWEYLai2yeF8MGyRW+GzvsvgwR8cgtM7vdaXGM2FJGwaL/LKDvtmpdGNGpNB1Zg+oRaQ9D4M5FLD8aJksAZXP81HFT+BBOHZDfYvRp6szMpZOHNsx26dlNEIV57k3JGLUVbGx2SFs=; Message-ID: <214520.91665.qm@web83908.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: CUbPCBUVM1lDVnfVkNftP9jWhK4bG2EBEGkPMwjh3QJidQ1 y9hztPC_H1k7caLs11_2e5zpJKDuspXXz54PL3nV1680nxzJEA.KnPAdkNPp yzdcwiRorkvbmIF_4glvOBBZgNL0UTH06K3CemYjgkxF94ZXw.ltbhFAyb.t mXUnVayfzi92dCwoA0NkjrwkdVvQBvQt4qTZGa0A_6Ur.ZgzQ4TClbtAgGMF q31qLtugnBLpuoLMFVhYHBuI25p0.TM40mtxxBOx20KngtrQhmXKepVma6LM l4ND6 Received: from [208.114.47.246] by web83908.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 05 Mar 2011 06:50:51 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/559 YahooMailWebService/0.8.109.292656 References: Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 06:50:51 -0800 (PST) From: Kelly Troyer Subject: Re: Knock sensor and indicator To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1810544264-1299336651=:91665" --0-1810544264-1299336651=:91665 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John,=0A=A0=A0 As you said=A0Chris's problem is probably a combination of f= actors..........You =0Amentioned your =0A=0Aintercooled intake temps being = about 130F during climb..........Info I have =0Aabout intercooling=0Aused 1= 30F as a desired max=A0boosted intake temp..........What are=A0your =0Atypi= cal=A0intake temps at =0A=0Acruise and what manifold pressures (or PSI) do = you=A0use at takeoff, climb and =0Acruise........Also=0Awhat is your EGT at= cruise ?.............=0A=0AThanks,=A0=0A=A0=A0=0AKelly Troyer=0A"DYKE DELT= A JD2" (Eventually)=0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A"MISTRAL"= _Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________= ________________________=0AFrom: John Slade =0AT= o: Rotary motors in aircraft =0ASent: Sat, Mar= ch 5, 2011 7:54:20 AM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: Knock sensor and indicator= =0A=0A>Perhaps too much ignition timing or=A0mixture problems such as spend= ing to much =0A>time at best =0A>=0A>power mixture (1700+ f EGT) instead of= richer than best power before leaning =0A>quickly to=A0lean of peak=A0EGT.= =0AYes, possibly. I always run rich, especially during run-up and take-off.= By =0Arunning rich, I mean I turn the mixture knob to 2 or 3pm. My EC2 is = adjusted as =0Abest I could, and seems to keep the mixture about right,=A0 = - but I still turn it =0Arich for high power ops. My EGT alarm is set at 17= 50, and I occasionally have to =0Areset it and back off the throttle during= climb. Perhaps I'm being too =0Aconservative here. =0A=0A=0AIts been a whi= le since I checked it, but I seem to recall intake temp (after the =0Ainter= cooler) being around 130 during climb. The airflow to my intercooler =0Acou= ld/should be improved.=0A=0AIt's possible that Chris is overdoing the stati= c high power runs. I mostly did =0Amine during high speed taxi tests and wa= s always mindful of the temps. I think I =0Aread that Chris runs high power= static for 15 mins at a time. I never ran full =0Apower static for more th= an a minute or two. =0A=0A=0ANo - I don't aggressively lean at cruise - I s= et the mixture at 12 and let the =0AEC2 do it's thing. Besides - Chris hasn= 't reached cruise YET, so I doubt it's =0Athat. As you say - it has to be t= iming, mixture or intake temps, or a =0Acombination of the three, possibly = combined with "destructive testing" on the =0Aground (which I did in the ai= r :).=0A=0AChris - what oil are you using? I used Mobil dino oil during ini= tial testing and =0AMobil 1 thereafter.=0A=0ARegards,=0AJohn=0A=0A=0AOn 3/4= /2011 11:39 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote: =0AJohn,=0A>=A0=A0=A0 =A0Chris is using= Tracy's apex seals (2mm) which are fairly tough and is only =0A>using =0A>= =0A>about 3 psi boost so any ideas on what is causing=A0detonation =0A>?...= .........Perhaps too=A0 =0A>=0A>much ignition timing or=A0mixture problems = such as spending to much time at best =0A>power mixture (1700+ f EGT) inste= ad of richer than best power before leaning =0A>quickly to=A0lean of peak= =A0EGT..........What EGT temps do you routinely see during=0A>takeoff, clim= b and cruise ?..........Do you aggressively lean at cruise =0A>?...........= .=0A>=0A>Thanks,=A0=A0=0A>=A0=0A>Kelly Troyer=0A>"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventual= ly)=0A>"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A>"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A>"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oi= l Manifold=0A>"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A____________= ____________________=0AFrom: John Slade =0A>To: = Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>Sent: Fri, March= 4, 2011 4:30:29 PM=0A>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Knock sensor and indicator= =0A>=0A>On 3/4/2011 4:43 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote:=0A>> engine runs reported = by Chris at high manifold pressure, high coolant temps and =0A>>as you ment= ioned=0A>> probably high intake temps with little or no airflow across the = =0A>>intercooler.............=0A>I did many, many engine runs and high spee= d taxi tests prior to flight, often =0A>with the temps at the limits. On oc= casion I was able to hear "pre-ignition" and =0A>back off the throttle. The= re was no sign of damage to my seals - but mine are =0A>3mm 'indestructible= ' seals from Tracy.=0A>John Slade=0A>=0A>--=0A>Homepage:=A0 http://www.flyr= otary.com/=0A>Archive and UnSub:=A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/= flyrotary/List.html=0A>=0A --0-1810544264-1299336651=:91665 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=0A
John,
=0A
   As you said Ch= ris's problem is probably a combination of factors..........You mentioned y= our
=0A
intercooled intake temps being about 130F during climb...= .......Info I have about intercooling
=0A
used 130F as a desired m= ax boosted intake temp..........What are your typical intake= temps at
=0A
cruise and what manifold pressures (or PSI) do you&= nbsp;use at takeoff, climb and cruise........Also
=0A
what is your= EGT at cruise ?.............
=0A
 
=0A
Thanks, = ;
=0A
  
=0A

Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A

"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oi= l Manifold

=0A

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

=0A

=0A
= =0A
=0A
=0AFrom: John Slade <jslade@canardaviatio= n.com>
To: Rotary mot= ors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, March 5, 2011 7:54:20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Knock sens= or and indicator

>Perhaps too much ignition timing or = ;mixture problems such as spending to much time at best =0A
>power m= ixture (1700+ f EGT) instead of richer than best power before leaning quick= ly to lean of peak EGT.
Yes, possibly. I always run rich, espe= cially during run-up and take-off. By running rich, I mean I turn the mixtu= re knob to 2 or 3pm. My EC2 is adjusted as best I could, and seems to keep = the mixture about right,  - but I still turn it rich for high power op= s. My EGT alarm is set at 1750, and I occasionally have to reset it and bac= k off the throttle during climb. Perhaps I'm being too conservative here. <= BR>
Its been a while since I checked it, but I seem to recall intake tem= p (after the intercooler) being around 130 during climb. The airflow to my = intercooler could/should be improved.

It's possible that Chris is ov= erdoing the static high power runs. I mostly did mine during high speed tax= i tests and was always mindful of the temps. I think I read that Chris runs= high power static for 15 mins at a time. I never ran full power static for more than a minute or two.

No - I don't = aggressively lean at cruise - I set the mixture at 12 and let the EC2 do it= 's thing. Besides - Chris hasn't reached cruise YET, so I doubt it's that. = As you say - it has to be timing, mixture or intake temps, or a combination= of the three, possibly combined with "destructive testing" on the ground (= which I did in the air :).

Chris - what oil are you using? I used Mo= bil dino oil during initial testing and Mobil 1 thereafter.

Regards,=
John


On 3/4/2011 11:39 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote: =0A=0A
=0A
John,
=0A
     = ;Chris is using Tracy's apex seals (2mm) which are fairly tough and is only= using
=0A
about 3 psi boost so any ideas on what is causing = ;detonation ?............Perhaps too 
=0A
much ignition timi= ng or mixture problems such as spending to much time at best
=0A=
power mixture (1700+ f EGT) instead of richer than best power before l= eaning
=0A
quickly to lean of peak EGT..........What EG= T temps do you routinely see during
=0A
takeoff, climb and cruise = ?..........Do you aggressively lean at cruise ?............
=0A
&n= bsp;
=0A
Thanks,  
 
=0A

Kelly Troyer
= "DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)<= /FONT>

=0A

"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MIS= TRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

=0A

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

=0A
=0A

=0A
=0A
= =0AFrom: John Slade <js= lade@canardaviation.com>
To:= Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net&= gt;
Sent: Fri, March= 4, 2011 4:30:29 PM
Subject:= [FlyRotary] Re: Knock sensor and indicator

On 3/4/2011 4= :43 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote:
> engine runs reported by Chris at high m= anifold pressure, high coolant temps and as you mentioned
> probably = high intake temps with little or no airflow across the intercooler.........= ....
I did many, many engine runs and high speed taxi tests prior to flight, often with the temp= s at the limits. On occasion I was able to hear "pre-ignition" and back off= the throttle. There was no sign of damage to my seals - but mine are 3mm '= indestructible' seals from Tracy.
John Slade

--
Homepage: = ; http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:  http://mail.lancair= online.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
<= BR>
--0-1810544264-1299336651=:91665--