X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nm8.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.44.135] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c2o) with SMTP id 4891640 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 05 Mar 2011 00:12:48 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.44.135; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: from [98.139.44.106] by nm8.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Mar 2011 05:12:12 -0000 Received: from [98.139.44.86] by tm11.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Mar 2011 05:12:12 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1023.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Mar 2011 05:12:12 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 108967.74053.bm@omp1023.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 90052 invoked by uid 60001); 5 Mar 2011 05:12:12 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1299301931; bh=uhT1bgxrWX8itit4qxPmU8coDWnrt4XsDIlpJIGsN0Q=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=LUBx7tT0uGlfMxzLzIgujsj6bNmPNmOaxBUPx1en0SQuIly/FI21fCqqOSjL3HG7CNeNCPErRe42ScNL5y4t3zxKuOREqCfR+S9udLSU0R5c2JzUZBsBUDFsFXBbbp6eNMB4oLH0bcGb+bO3RCS8kR9BJlFYTzlNwJGia1DKhNw= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=att.net; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=Gm4cRcoKJJWOOrhpJB7zYRe/oz0ZJ3lMogfRp3MGCd9c8VQag/RAtx1ytFqR+2QaxaiTZQqnECRYeojO0aVBgKLlxlnGvBCdku+/U8jSGPAvsYSwN0YFzZMr9Cmn5YxTSM1EZXOj+16QGUD8LZkGghkzmLxZuf8DYqX21s8xOn0=; Message-ID: <964614.87965.qm@web83901.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: FG1RXtoVM1ntklyvkBY31X._zWwjaobfJp5Wp8GKeG7IkHP TSEnzlvgjTqE6.HV..zhNLIKtxtNR0z47eqH_E0zeQ4A9rBmnlOHrLtwAYlR rnB0i.9ZRH3I2j79ynPpTHbpegnZ_M3TO5rMDYYCFFCTMFug.4Dgo7tlXOF0 6ojSxWsIm.cycoBq.juocXpLQpcFzVukvglORZtgzcK_PCuzxkgLOinvbdIT z7Q6uN2Sl9opoBqLC74RF_szk1v_A6.eU1xTrJlqUb2BvHzVts2WLP.hBT0c ja3sDnrVDNvbx Received: from [208.114.43.192] by web83901.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 04 Mar 2011 21:12:11 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/559 YahooMailWebService/0.8.109.292656 References: Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2011 21:12:11 -0800 (PST) From: Kelly Troyer Subject: Re: Knock sensor and indicator To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1917694100-1299301931=:87965" --0-1917694100-1299301931=:87965 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dave, Chris, John,=0A=A0=A0=A0=A0 What ever the problem ends up being all o= f us flying or planning to fly a =0Aturbo=0Awill be listening for the solut= ion !!...............=0A=A0=0AKelly Troyer=0A"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)= =0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Mani= fold=0A"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A___________________________= _____=0AFrom: Dave =0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft= =0ASent: Fri, March 4, 2011 11:03:17 PM=0ASub= ject: [FlyRotary] Re: Knock sensor and indicator=0A=0AI will bet a coke or = two that this is related to intake charge temp, which in =0Ahis installatio= n may be unmonitored. I cant remember if we (when I was actively =0Aworking= with him on his build) put a thermocouple on the intake or not - the =0AMi= stral Intake I bought had 3 ports on the throttle side for "stuff". I remem= ber =0Aputting two of them to the intake manifold pressure sensors, and may= have put =0Athe third one to a thermocouple, but unknown if Chris had wire= d up and =0Acalibrated that, or if it actually was just plugged with a thre= aded blank/cap. =0A=0A=0ACouple that with a boosted engine, minimal airflow= over the intercooler. Also... =0Ahow many inches of MP is Chris actually g= etting? I remember he says he has 3lb =0Asprings in the wastegate, so that = SHOULD be 6" of boost.. so a max MP of 36". If =0Ahe's getting anything mor= e than that, then something is out of calibration or =0Aits not a 3lb sprin= g. =0A=0A=0AUsing universal gas law, PV=3DnRT, and playing with a gas law c= alculator =0Acalculator, I dont know if I missed something.. but a 70F degr= ee day (294 =0Adegrees Kelvin), standard pressure 29.92" (760 torr) boosted= to 36" (914 torr) =0Aand keeping the volume constant, I got a charge temp = of 175 F. If you boost to =0A45" (15" extra boost,=A0 7-8 lbs) you get a ch= arge temp of 336 degrees F. This =0Adoes not account for waste heat from th= e turbo wheel heating up the compressor =0Aby direct conduction. =0A=0A=0AT= hat means (if my numbers are right), the air leaving the turbo to the =0Ain= tercooler is 175 degrees F or more. With no airflow over the intercooler, t= he =0Aonly heat loss minimal radiation and conduction, so you still have VE= RY HOT AIR =0Agoing into the combustion chamber, which predisposes you to d= etonation =0Atremendously. =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AOn 3/4/2011 10:39 PM, Kelly Tr= oyer wrote: =0AJohn,=0A>=A0=A0=A0 =A0Chris is using Tracy's apex seals (2mm= ) which are fairly tough and is only =0A>using =0A>=0A>about 3 psi boost so= any ideas on what is causing=A0detonation =0A>?............Perhaps too=A0 = =0A>=0A>much ignition timing or=A0mixture problems such as spending to much= time at best =0A>power mixture (1700+ f EGT) instead of richer than best p= ower before leaning =0A>quickly to=A0lean of peak=A0EGT..........What EGT t= emps do you routinely see during=0A>takeoff, climb and cruise ?..........Do= you aggressively lean at cruise =0A>?............=0A>=0A>Thanks,=A0=A0=0A>= =A0=0A>Kelly Troyer=0A>"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A>"13B ROTARY"_ Engin= e=0A>"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A>"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A>"TURBONETICS= "_TO4E50 Turbo=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A________________________________=0AFro= m: John Slade =0A>To: Rotary motors in aircraft = =0A>Sent: Fri, March 4, 2011 4:30:29 PM=0A>Sub= ject: [FlyRotary] Re: Knock sensor and indicator=0A>=0A>On 3/4/2011 4:43 PM= , Kelly Troyer wrote:=0A>> engine runs reported by Chris at high manifold p= ressure, high coolant temps and =0A>>as you mentioned=0A>> probably high in= take temps with little or no airflow across the =0A>>intercooler...........= ..=0A>I did many, many engine runs and high speed taxi tests prior to fligh= t, often =0A>with the temps at the limits. On occasion I was able to hear "= pre-ignition" and =0A>back off the throttle. There was no sign of damage to= my seals - but mine are =0A>3mm 'indestructible' seals from Tracy.=0A>John= Slade=0A>=0A>--=0A>Homepage:=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/=0A>Archive and U= nSub:=A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html=0A>=0A --0-1917694100-1299301931=:87965 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=0A
Dave, Chris, John,
=0A
   &= nbsp; What ever the problem ends up being all of us flying or planning to f= ly a turbo
=0A
will be listening for the solution !!..............= .
 
=0A

Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA J= D2" (Eventually)

=0A

"13B ROTARY= "_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

=0A<= P>"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

=0A

=0A

=0A
=0A
=0AFrom: Dave <david.staten@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrota= ry@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Fri, March 4, 2011 11:03:17 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Knock sensor and indicator

I will bet a coke or two that this is related to intake charge temp, w= hich in his installation may be unmonitored. I cant remember if we (when I = was actively working with him on his build) put a thermocouple on the intak= e or not - the Mistral Intake I bought had 3 ports on the throttle side for= "stuff". I remember putting two of them to the intake manifold pressure se= nsors, and may have put the third one to a thermocouple, but unknown if Chr= is had wired up and calibrated that, or if it actually was just plugged wit= h a threaded blank/cap.

Couple that with a boosted engine, minimal airflow over the intercooler. Also... how m= any inches of MP is Chris actually getting? I remember he says he has 3lb s= prings in the wastegate, so that SHOULD be 6" of boost.. so a max MP of 36"= . If he's getting anything more than that, then something is out of calibra= tion or its not a 3lb spring.

Using universal gas law, PV=3DnRT, an= d playing with a gas law calculator calculator, I dont know if I missed som= ething.. but a 70F degree day (294 degrees Kelvin), standard pressure 29.92= " (760 torr) boosted to 36" (914 torr) and keeping the volume constant, I g= ot a charge temp of 175 F. If you boost to 45" (15" extra boost,  7-8 = lbs) you get a charge temp of 336 degrees F. This does not account for wast= e heat from the turbo wheel heating up the compressor by direct conduction.=

That means (if my numbers are right), the air leaving the turbo to= the intercooler is 175 degrees F or more. With no airflow over the intercooler, the only heat loss minimal radiation and conduction, so you s= till have VERY HOT AIR going into the combustion chamber, which predisposes= you to detonation tremendously.




On 3/4/2011 10:39 PM, = Kelly Troyer wrote: =0A
=0A
=0A
John,
=0A     Chris is using Tracy's apex seals (2mm) which a= re fairly tough and is only using
=0A
about 3 psi boost so any id= eas on what is causing detonation ?............Perhaps too  =0A
much ignition timing or mixture problems such as spending to = much time at best
=0A
power mixture (1700+ f EGT) instead of rich= er than best power before leaning
=0A
quickly to lean of pea= k EGT..........What EGT temps do you routinely see during
=0Atakeoff, climb and cruise ?..........Do you aggressively lean at cruise ?.= ...........
=0A
 
=0A
Thanks,  
 <= /DIV>=0A

Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" <= FONT size=3D1>(Eventually)

=0A

"13B ROTARY"_ Engine"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

=0A

"TURBONETI= CS"_TO4E50 Turbo

=0A

=0A

=0A
=0A
=0AFrom: John Slade <jslade@canardaviation.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <= ;flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Knock sensor and indicato= r

On 3/4/2011 4:43 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote:
> engine run= s reported by Chris at high manifold pressure, high coolant temps and as yo= u mentioned
> probably high intake temps with little or no airflow ac= ross the intercooler.............
I did many, many engine runs and high speed taxi tests prior to flight, often with the temp= s at the limits. On occasion I was able to hear "pre-ignition" and back off= the throttle. There was no sign of damage to my seals - but mine are 3mm '= indestructible' seals from Tracy.
John Slade

--
Homepage: = ; http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:  http://mail.lancair= online.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
<= BR>
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