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Message-ID: <394220.86332.qm@web83901.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <list-4891234@logan.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2011 13:43:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Kelly Troyer <keltro@att.net>
Subject: Re: Knock sensor and indicator
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
In-Reply-To: <list-4891234@logan.com>
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Dave,=0A=A0=A0=A0 You must=A0have been reading my mind as I had recently de=
cided to do=A0exactly =0Awhat you=0Ahave recommended to Chris..............=
.Get it in the air naturally aspirated =0Afirst then add the =0A=0ATurbo af=
ter any bugs (airframe, cooling, etc) are worked out.............=0A=0A=A0=
=A0 Since we have several turbo/rotary=A0a/c flying successfully it has bee=
n a =0Amystery why=A0Chris=0Ahas had so much trouble with what appears to b=
e detonation and has never been =0Aoff the=0Aground...........I think you h=
ave=A0hit on the reason...........I seem to remember =0Aof several engine=
=0Aruns reported by Chris at high=A0manifold pressure, high coolant temps a=
nd as you =0Amentioned=0Aprobably high intake temps=A0with little or no air=
flow across the =0Aintercooler.............=A0=0A=0AKelly Troyer=0A"DYKE DE=
LTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A"MISTRA=
L"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A______=
__________________________=0AFrom: Dave <david.staten@gmail.com>=0ATo: Rota=
ry motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>=0ASent: Fri, March 4, 2=
011 1:25:40 PM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: Knock sensor and indicator=0A=0AO=
n 3/4/2011 8:43 AM, Chris Barber wrote: =0ASince I have had an issue with d=
etonation, I am=A0contemplating adding a knock =0Asensor.=A0 What do y'all =
know about this addition.=A0 I do not believe Tracy's=A0EM =0Ahas a provisi=
on for a reading, so, what might be a good route to take.=A0 The =0Abrief r=
esearch I have done shows different frequencies, types etc.=A0=A0 What woul=
d =0Abe correct for a rotary, both as to a sensor and something to=A0notify=
 me in the =0Acabin?=A0 Thanks.=A0 I am about to replace=A0ALL my apex seal=
s and soft parts and =0Ahopefully finally lick this issue....hopefully....d=
id I mention =0Ahopefully...determinably...persistent? (heck, I wasn't plan=
ning anything else =0Athis weekend <g>)=0A>=A0=0A>ChrisThe stock block roto=
r housings have a fitting in between the plugs to have =0A>a knock sensor t=
hat ties into the stock ECU.=0A=0AHowever, the response time required, from=
 what I've read, from the time =0Adetonation is detectable to action needin=
g to be taken is very very small.. =0Afractions of a second.=0A=0AI suspect=
 that all the time and expense you are contemplating undertaking would =0As=
imply be to install a light to tell you when its time to tear down the engi=
ne =0Aagain, because it would be too late to avoid the damage. =0A=0A=0AOur=
 approach must be to avoid detonation, not mitigate its effects. You would =
=0Aget more benefit out of measuring your intake temp (as an aux temp on th=
e EM) =0Aafter the turbo intercooler to see where your charged air temp is =
hanging at, =0Aand trying to cool that effectively. Running boost on the gr=
ound with no airflow =0Aacross the intercooler is liable to result in intak=
e temps over 200 degrees due =0Ato compressional heating of the intake air.=
 If I remember right your fan is on =0Athe radiator, and there is not a fan=
 on the intercooler. =0A=0A=0AThere was a reason when we started this that =
I recommended strongly about =0Agetting the plane flying in a normally aspi=
rated mode first. =0A=0A=0ADave. =0A
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<html><head><style type=3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></he=
ad><body><div style=3D"font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:1=
4pt"><DIV style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 14=
pt">=0A<DIV></DIV>=0A<DIV>Dave,</DIV>=0A<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; You must&nb=
sp;have been reading my mind as I had recently decided to do&nbsp;exactly w=
hat you</DIV>=0A<DIV>have recommended to Chris...............Get it in the =
air naturally aspirated first then add the </DIV>=0A<DIV>Turbo after any bu=
gs (airframe, cooling, etc) are worked out.............</DIV>=0A<DIV>&nbsp;=
</DIV>=0A<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp; Since we have several turbo/rotary&nbsp;a/c flyi=
ng successfully it has been a mystery why&nbsp;Chris</DIV>=0A<DIV>has had s=
o much trouble with what appears to be detonation and has never been off th=
e</DIV>=0A<DIV>ground...........I think you have&nbsp;hit on the reason....=
.......I seem to remember of several engine</DIV>=0A<DIV>runs reported by C=
hris at high&nbsp;manifold pressure, high coolant temps and as you mentione=
d</DIV>=0A<DIV>probably high intake temps&nbsp;with little or no airflow ac=
ross the intercooler.............&nbsp;</DIV>=0A<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>=0A<P>Kell=
y Troyer<BR><STRONG><FONT size=3D4>"DYKE DELTA JD2"</FONT> <FONT size=3D1>(=
Eventually)</FONT></STRONG></P>=0A<P>"13B ROTARY"_ Engine<BR>"RWS"_RD1C/EC2=
/EM2<BR>"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold</P>=0A<P>"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turb=
o</P>=0A<DIV><BR></DIV>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans=
-serif; FONT-SIZE: 14pt"><BR>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: times new roman,=
 new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT size=3D2 face=3DTahoma>=0A<=
HR SIZE=3D1>=0A<B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Dave &=
lt;david.staten@gmail.com&gt;<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</=
SPAN></B> Rotary motors in aircraft &lt;flyrotary@lancaironline.net&gt;<BR>=
<B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Fri, March 4, 2011 1:=
25:40 PM<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> [FlyRo=
tary] Re: Knock sensor and indicator<BR></FONT><BR>On 3/4/2011 8:43 AM, Chr=
is Barber wrote: =0A<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">=0A<STYLE>P {MARGIN-TOP:0px;M=
ARGIN-BOTTOM:0px;}</STYLE>=0A=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; DIRECTIO=
N: ltr; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 10pt">=0A<P>Since I have had an issue=
 with detonation, I am&nbsp;contemplating adding a knock sensor.&nbsp; What=
 do y'all know about this addition.&nbsp; I do not believe Tracy's&nbsp;EM =
has a provision for a reading, so, what might be a good route to take.&nbsp=
; The brief research I have done shows different frequencies, types etc.&nb=
sp;&nbsp; What would be correct for a rotary, both as to a sensor and somet=
hing to&nbsp;notify me in the cabin?&nbsp; Thanks.&nbsp; I am about to repl=
ace&nbsp;ALL my apex seals and soft parts and hopefully finally lick this i=
ssue....hopefully....did I mention hopefully...determinably...persistent? (=
heck, I wasn't planning anything else this weekend &lt;g&gt;)</P>=0A<P>&nbs=
p;</P>=0A<P>Chris</P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>The stock block rotor housings have=
 a fitting in between the plugs to have a knock sensor that ties into the s=
tock ECU.<BR><BR>However, the response time required, from what I've read, =
from the time detonation is detectable to action needing to be taken is ver=
y very small.. fractions of a second.<BR><BR>I suspect that all the time an=
d expense you are contemplating undertaking would simply be to install a li=
ght to tell you when its time to tear down the engine again, because it wou=
ld be too late to avoid the damage. <BR><BR>Our approach must be to avoid d=
etonation, not mitigate its effects. You would get more benefit out of meas=
uring your intake temp (as an aux temp on the EM) after the turbo intercool=
er to see where your charged air temp is hanging at, and trying to cool tha=
t effectively. Running boost on the ground with no airflow across the inter=
cooler is liable to result in intake temps over 200 degrees due to
 compressional heating of the intake air. If I remember right your fan is o=
n the radiator, and there is not a fan on the intercooler. <BR><BR>There wa=
s a reason when we started this that I recommended strongly about getting t=
he plane flying in a normally aspirated mode first. <BR><BR>Dave. <BR></DIV=
></DIV></DIV></div></body></html>
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