X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nm29.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.91.99] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.11) with SMTP id 4630142 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 05 Dec 2010 14:30:48 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.91.99; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: from [98.139.91.70] by nm29.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Dec 2010 19:30:12 -0000 Received: from [98.139.91.23] by tm10.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Dec 2010 19:30:12 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1023.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Dec 2010 19:30:11 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 992538.77888.bm@omp1023.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 20423 invoked by uid 60001); 5 Dec 2010 19:23:31 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1291577011; bh=WSiu8mRpgDy6FhV+oV+vIb8t+2HFLEOWMQVLdDj2Giw=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=YeaGSBDvPqDOrR9zEIVlws5QZNgAY+1xPt98UbTisqHa/HHGxqHvdv0U8TuwI7/B+SVbYdRLKFe1UI78a7w0XdDKIb15Uz8moT3n3jqGfF96mVo4HZEZ3OKNKp0CqXgLh6Ui4vbSyzZRt/ljpQN+9VKVSMaVEAFVVbCF5munLI4= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=att.net; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=VgB5JbdStB4Xc86mgRqVYsSYQF8hxsfQm7PzBUDm7fV1kRDZzyQaaOf3KrAefE/lHyu1fEms/ZZtskFr4NF+/JQZ6VQk9YUABqL7NQ0B6Gg11DCCSLDzUfVhQ3kNKb1+8oE++3jZBKmhvRtqPPGsfrU3N4xtPfn7bgyUsX8mX90=; Message-ID: <507740.19477.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: 21GwNHcVM1nZGlaeiPM5BrHsz9h89oNs1yzjNnRC1MScTMi 5EgBttHfU.hEtX1fh6kPdCi2sPxz7sEy3sbFvP4_qgsGcGk5jWfuwxTdU3zS 3vQdby5GM7.annEY_FfJGjJ9ZoiW2.ub11NbBKktBKxtkZnFJWxOlEIdVwZa U.EXfWdOt3xXFhetg67WZl78q_tytLiPJmwg8m8NxmnMQ2QrIW5AtwtShFg0 F9fwBu2YqFIQf1RUAWnVbaUW5dfoAfGGrX3pvJQlI4WenE_7TwWPsrz0qbhb 4fHg.Ahn8iA-- Received: from [208.114.47.171] by web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 05 Dec 2010 11:23:31 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/553 YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.285259 References: Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 11:23:31 -0800 (PST) From: Kelly Troyer Subject: Re: Revmaster PM Alternator / Ignition System To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-572551631-1291577011=:19477" --0-572551631-1291577011=:19477 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Finn,=0A=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0The "Compufire" Model 55560 Harley Davison 40 amp= 3 phase=C2=A0 PM alternator with =0Asolid=0Astate regulator=C2=A0 that I h= ave (much the same as Ernest and Todd have) have the =0Afollowing=0Aweights= ..............=0A=0A=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Rotor..................3 lb 9.6 oz= =0A=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Stator.................2lb=C2=A010.8 oz=0A=0AKel= ly Troyer=0A"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A"RWS"_RD= 1C/EC2/EM2=0A"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo= =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Finn Lassen =0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft =0ASent: Sun, December 5, 2010 12:18:34 PM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Revmaster PM Alternator / Ignition System=0A=0AA battery is a very effectiv= e capacitor, or noise filter.=0AEven if this system could deliver the neede= d power, taking the battery out of =0Athe system may prevent enough noise f= iltering from ignition and injector coils =0Ato render the engine controlle= r inoperable.=0A=0ABut looks like the basic idea has merit. Getting rid of = the weight of alternator =0Aand belt.=0AHowever, I would prefer just one al= ternator with twice the current capacity and =0Aconsider the battery the ba= ckup.=0AI do wonder what the weight of the stator ring and magnets are.=0A= =0AA coupe of other factors: I don't like the high-power resistors. I would= seem =0Athat one could make an efficient switching power regulator that wo= uld not waste =0Apower in resistors. Also, the electronics being in the hou= sing may be an issue. =0AI assume the housing will be the same temperature = as the engine and thus it may =0Abe more difficult to get rid of the heat f= rom the electronics (if using the =0Ahousing as a heat sink).=0A=0AFinn=0A= =0A=0AOn 12/5/2010 12:51 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote: =0AErnest , Todd=C2=A0and = Group,=0A>=C2=A0=0A>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Self contained and= redundant electrical power system that will keep the =0A>engine running=0A= >without the battery after start-up...........I presume our planned PM =0A>= alternators will keep our =0A>=0A>engines running in the event our battery = dies or is switched out of the =0A>electrical system ??=0A>=C2=A0=0A>=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0What say the more knowledgeable EE type= s of the group ??..........=0A>=C2=A0=0A>http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/ar= ticles/2010-11_revmaster.asp=0A>=C2=A0=0A>=C2=A0=0A>=C2=A0=0A>Accessory Cas= e=0A>This accessory housing package accommodates four items critical to eng= ine and =0A>aircraft operations. It contains three major operating systems:= the dual =0A>alternators, the self-energized ignition source, and the elec= tric starter. And =0A>it also provides the physical mount to the airframe. = The R-2300 model is nearly =0A>identical to the proven unit currently used = on the R-2100 (more than 60 of those =0A>units are now in use) and is yet a= nother product made exclusively by Revmaster. =0A>The three electrical subs= ystems are independent but function as an integrated =0A>unit within one co= mpact aluminum case. Let=E2=80=99s look at each component separately =0A>fo= r the sake of clarity.=0A>=C2=A0=0A>The precision-machined alloy casting fu= lly encloses the dual 18 ampere =0A>alternator package. Mounted to the inte= rior face is a stationary 12-pole stator =0A>ring. An aluminum flywheel inc= orporates 12 neodymium iron-boron magnets that are =0A>attached to the inte= rior of the flywheel. These magnets, the strongest magnets =0A>commercially= available, rotate around the 8=C2=BD-inch-diameter stator. Any movement = =0A>of the flywheel sends its magnets orbiting in close proximity to the st= ators, =0A>with 12 feet each of copper wire windings exciting the electrons= and creating =0A>electrical energy. There are two groups of five alternato= r coils, each set =0A>functioning as an independent 18 amp alternator. The = current generated from =0A>these coils is sent to solid state regulators an= d then to the aircraft=E2=80=99s battery =0A>and operational power bus. In = the unlikely case of a failure in one system, the =0A>other would remain un= affected. =0A>=0A>Ignition =0A>The two coils which make up the ignition pow= er source are located 180 degrees =0A>apart at the 12 and 6 o=E2=80=99clock= positions (see photo above), separating the =0A>previously mentioned five-= left and five-right alternator stator coil groups. The =0A>ignition coils a= re also creating power whenever there=E2=80=99s rotation of the =0A>flywhee= l, but their energy is dedicated exclusively to the CDI (capacitor =0A>disc= harge ignition) package. =0A>=0A>=0A>The back side of the accessory case, s= howing the ignition trigger sensors=0A>A triggering sensor mounted to the c= enter area of the housing=E2=80=99s interior =0A>receives a signal from a d= evice attached to the end of the crankshaft, acting as =0A>the =E2=80=9Cdis= tributor=E2=80=9D and telling the CDI when to transmit the power to the eig= ht =0A>mini coils which are positioned near the upper and lower sparkplugs = at each =0A>combustion chamber. Once the engine has been started, the batte= ry isn=E2=80=99t =0A>necessary to operate the ignition.=0A>=0A>With the acc= essory case installed, timing the ignition is next on the list.=0A>The igni= tion advance is set at a maximum of 25 degrees before top center. This =0A>= would normally be identified as a fixed timing position, but in reality the= =0A>=E2=80=9Ceffective advance=E2=80=9D behaves as if the low rpm timing i= s at 15 degrees BTC =0A>(before top dead center- sometimes BTDC). This desi= rable situation is created by =0A>magnetic precession in the self-energized= design. Lower voltage exists in the =0A>system when the engine is turning = slowly, reducing the current flow at the =0A>timing triggers. =0A>=0A>=0A>T= he =E2=80=9Cbrains=E2=80=9D behind the brawn. Once the timing is set, the e= lectronics are wired =0A>up and bolted in place.=0A>The engine likes 15 deg= rees BTC for easy starting and comfortable idle. But as =0A>rpm rises so do= es the voltage and the ability to =E2=80=9Csnap=E2=80=9D the timing, and th= e =0A>advance moves quickly to its maximum setting. Experience has proven t= hat 25 =0A>degrees BTC, while possibly leaving a few horsepower untapped, i= s a smart place =0A>to limit the spark advance because it greatly reduces t= he possibility of =0A>destructive detonation.=0A>=C2=A0=0A>Kelly Troyer=0A>= "DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A>"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A>"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2= =0A>"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A>"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A> -- H= omepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: =0A>http://mail.la= ncaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html =0A>=0A --0-572551631-1291577011=:19477 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=0A
Finn,
=0A
   The "Compufire= " Model 55560 Harley Davison 40 amp 3 phase  PM alternator with solid<= /DIV>=0A
state regulator  that I have (much the same as Ernest and= Todd have) have the following
=0A
weights..............
=0A<= DIV> 
=0A
    Rotor..................3 lb 9.6 = oz
=0A
    Stator.................2lb 10.= 8 oz
=0A
 
=0A

Kelly Troyer
= "DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)

=0A<= P>"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Man= ifold

=0A

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

=0A

=0A

=0A=0A
=0AFrom: Finn Lassen <finn.lassen@verizon.net&g= t;
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sun, December 5, 2010 12:18:34 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Revmaster PM = Alternator / Ignition System

A battery is a very effective ca= pacitor, or noise filter.
Even if this system could deliver the needed p= ower, taking the battery out of the system may prevent enough noise filteri= ng from ignition and injector coils to render the engine controller inopera= ble.

But looks like the basic idea has merit. Getting rid of the wei= ght of alternator and belt.
However, I would prefer just one alternator = with twice the current capacity and consider the battery the backup.
I d= o wonder what the weight of the stator ring and magnets are.

A coupe of other factors: I don't like the high-power resistor= s. I would seem that one could make an efficient switching power regulator = that would not waste power in resistors. Also, the electronics being in the= housing may be an issue. I assume the housing will be the same temperature= as the engine and thus it may be more difficult to get rid of the heat fro= m the electronics (if using the housing as a heat sink).

Finn

On 12/5/2010 12:51 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote: =0A
=0A
=0A
=0A

Ernest , Todd and = Group,

=0A

 

=0A

   &nb= sp;   Self contained and redundant electrical power system that w= ill keep the engine running

=0A

without the batt= ery after start-up...........I presume our planned PM alternators will keep= our

=0A

engines running in the event our batte= ry dies or is switched out of the electrical system ??

=0A

&nbs= p;

=0A

       What s= ay the more knowledgeable EE types of the group ??..........

=0A<= P> 

=0A

http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/articles/2010-11_revmaste= r.asp

=0A

 

=0A

 

=0A

 

=0A

Accessory= Case
This accessory housing package accommodates four items critica= l to engine and aircraft operations. It contains three major operating syst= ems: the dual alternators, the self-energized ignition source, and the elec= tric starter. And it also provides the physical mount to the airframe. The = R-2300 model is nearly identical to the proven unit currently used on the R= -2100 (more than 60 of those units are now in use) and is yet another produ= ct made exclusively by Revmaster. The three electrical subsystems are indep= endent but function as an integrated unit within one compact aluminum case.= Let=E2=80=99s look at each component separately for the sake of clarity.=0A

 

=0A

The precision-machined alloy casting fully encloses= the dual 18 ampere alternator package. Mounted to the interior face is a s= tationary 12-pole stator ring. An aluminum flywheel incorporates 12 neodymi= um iron-boron magnets that are attached to the interior of the flywheel. Th= ese magnets, the strongest magnets commercially available, rotate around th= e 8=C2=BD-inch-diameter stator. Any movement of the flywheel sends its magn= ets orbiting in close proximity to the stators, with 12 feet each of copper= wire windings exciting the electrons and creating electrical energy. There= are two groups of five alternator coils, each set functioning as an indepe= ndent 18 amp alternator. The current generated from these coils is sent to = solid state regulators and then to the aircraft=E2=80=99s battery and opera= tional power bus. In the unlikely case of a failure in one system, the othe= r would remain unaffected.

=0A

Ignition
The two coils whic= h make up the ignition power source are located 180 degrees apart at the 12= and 6 o=E2=80=99clock positions (see photo above), separating the previous= ly mentioned five-left and five-right alternator stator coil groups. The ig= nition coils are also creating power whenever there=E2=80=99s rotation of t= he flywheel, but their energy is dedicated exclusively to the CDI (capacito= r discharge ignition) package.

=0A


The back sid= e of the accessory case, showing the ignition trigger sensors

=0A

= A triggering sensor mounted to the center area of the housing=E2=80=99s int= erior receives a signal from a device attached to the end of the crankshaft= , acting as the =E2=80=9Cdistributor=E2=80=9D and telling the CDI when to t= ransmit the power to the eight mini coils which are positioned near the upp= er and lower sparkplugs at each combustion chamber. Once the engine has bee= n started, the battery isn=E2=80=99t necessary to operate the ignition.

= =0A


With the accessory case installed, timing the i= gnition is next on the list.

=0A

The ignition advance is set at a = maximum of 25 degrees before top center. This would normally be identified = as a fixed timing position, but in reality the =E2=80=9Ceffective advance= =E2=80=9D behaves as if the low rpm timing is at 15 degrees BTC (before top= dead center- sometimes BTDC). This desirable situation is created by magne= tic precession in the self-energized design. Lower voltage exists in the sy= stem when the engine is turning slowly, reducing the current flow at the ti= ming triggers.

=0A


The =E2=80=9Cbrains=E2=80=9D= behind the brawn. Once the timing is set, the electronics are wired up and= bolted in place.

=0A

The engine likes 15 degrees BTC for easy sta= rting and comfortable idle. But as rpm rises so does the voltage and the ab= ility to =E2=80=9Csnap=E2=80=9D the timing, and the advance moves quickly t= o its maximum setting. Experience has proven that 25 degrees BTC, while pos= sibly leaving a few horsepower untapped, is a smart place to limit the spar= k advance because it greatly reduces the possibility of destructive detonat= ion.


 
=0A

Kelly Troyer
"DYKE = DELTA JD2" (Eventually)

=0A

"13B= ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold<= /P>=0A

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

=0A--=0AHomepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/=0AArc=
hive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.htm=
l=0A

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