X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.120] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.10) with ESMTP id 4558022 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 06 Nov 2010 16:24:33 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.120; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Return-Path: X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=3jtQBdTzPyV+fq4oCU/u8ZPrJJGN11HvhaDVxyWhycI= c=1 sm=0 a=4OGXJxxrxeQA:10 a=rPkcCx1H5rrOSfN0dPC7kw==:17 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=arxwEM4EAAAA:8 a=r1ClD_H3AAAA:8 a=NyhxtEZTsh4NqcPgM7cA:9 a=EkNSTXWBNDuz11dFZ5gA:7 a=piLdAdRTnJGTAvckCDlGcX8tJ2kA:4 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=X9xqImMNC2yucluI:21 a=FhowzGYSsGltOnT5:21 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=pedpZTtsAAAA:8 a=cc3OKN_qP4XUIKbDCXYA:9 a=4QnAcxeJHRnu3EXISFQA:7 a=OQdb7a7A8hwxPZd0i6YwrdiwijcA:4 a=eJojReuL3h0A:10 a=vKjua3Hnlm1vnncz:21 a=xFC509mcGVzxFrSx:21 a=rPkcCx1H5rrOSfN0dPC7kw==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 174.110.167.5 Received: from [174.110.167.5] ([174.110.167.5:54187] helo=EdPC) by cdptpa-oedge02.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id 7D/76-02631-C59B5DC4; Sat, 06 Nov 2010 20:23:57 +0000 Message-ID: <5EDB1BB512D941EF8F850DF0F1325305@EdPC> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Staging Byte was : EM-2 fuel flow readings - Above and Below stagging Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 16:23:37 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0039_01CB7DCE.F6F8B320" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01CB7DCE.F6F8B320 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dennis, the EC2/3 puts out a stream of data from its serial port as you = know. =20 One of the bytes of data it sends is the "Staging Byte". How this byte = is configured (zero or one) tells the EM2 whether the EC has staged or = not. If all four injectors are firing the value is logic zero (near = volts in this case), if only the primaries are firing then the values is = logical one (near 5 volts). If the EC staged then the flow rate will = be calculated as 2 X primary injector flow rate (assuming all four = injectors are the same flow rate). Generally, when I have experienced this problem, the flow rate does not = "HANG UP" at the exact value it was before you drop below the staging = point - but, the fuel flow value displayed does remain about twice = whatever the current actual primary flow rate is - because the multipy = factor of 2 due to the last value of the valid staging byte before you = dropped below the staging point. Once you dropped below the staging = point the EC2/3 should send a staging byte with the value indicating so, = if it does not or the EM does not receive it for some reason then it = will continue to multiply the primary flow rate by 2. I use this Staging byte for the same purposes in my EFISM display. I = have had this happen for two reasons. One is the individual switches = from the EC monitor mode while the staging byte is set for four = injectors - and the user has disabled the EFISM continous EC monitor = mode which monitors for changes in the staging byte - even when not in = the EC viewing mode. The other reason is possibly noise on the serial = link. =20 So the likely reason your EM is reflecting the wrong or a "hung up" = flow rate is that some noise or something is affecting the EM's receipt = or interpretation of this staging byte over the serial link. =20 Now if your fuel flow value is actually hung up at an unchanging value = rather than some value twice what it should be then that is a different = problem Ed.=20 From: Dennis Havarlah=20 Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2010 12:06 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: EM-2 fuel flow readings - Above and Below = stagging Bill has "seen" the same problem I've seen for several years and could = not get fixed. Fuel flow while operating staged is very low and the = EM-2 shows the correct rate when you first start the engine and you have = not operated above staging. =20 After I open the throttle to above the staging point - take off and fly = - and than reduce throttle to below the staging point when descending to = land - my EM-2 fuel flow rate "hangs-up" and continues to show the = higher flow rate it showed at the higher manifold pressure above = staging. I have not found any way to fix this. Bill experienced this when he intentionally went above staging and than = reduced the throttle to below staging on the ground during EC-2 tuning. My staging point is set at 16 in. MP. Dennis H. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill Bradburry=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2010 9:32 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Staging Adjustment in EC2 since 2006 I have been working with staging for a couple of days and have my = normal confusion. =20 I have the Renesis engine but I have changed the red primary and blue = secondary injectors to all yellow injectors. This gives me roughly the = same fuel flow capability when all four injectors are on, but a higher = flow capability when only the primary are on as compared to the normal = Renesis.=20 My staging point is set at 15 inches. I know that is lower than Tracy = recommends, but it reduces the cooling requirements while I mess with = it. I may change it later if I figure out what I am doing and get = better (faster) at fixing the settings. If I have the manifold pressure above the staging point and slowly = lower it, it is a smooth transition and there is no indication that I = can see or hear that the staging has changed. BUT! =20 If I have the pressure below 15 and slowly raise it, it seems to me = that the engine is trying to make a decision as I go above 15, until I = get to about 15.5, then it suddenly makes a different sound and jumps to = 16.0-16.5. These bins are about 43 or 44 at 15 inches and it always = jumps to 47 or 48. The map table levels in this area are close to the = same. =20 I have not been able to determine if the change need is to lean or = richen the mixture. If you read the study Steve did, it would seem that = it needs to richen?? I tried a suggestion I read of Tracy's.I checked the fuel flow just = below the stage point, 2.7 gal/hr. then above the stage point.4.1 = gal/hr. This caused me to conclude that I needed to lean it, so I = lowered it back down below the stage point to get started trying it and = Whups! The fuel flow was still at 4+gal/hr! I waited for it to lower = but it didn't??? =20 I realize this sounds like I am rambling...so what else is new! =20 Any insights would be welcome. =20 Bill B -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2010 9:38 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Staging Adjustment in EC2 since 2006 =20 Pertaining to Steve's data and analysis and Tracy's comments about = Mode 6 of the EC. =20 I went back and read up on the Ec2 modes and found this statement = which I had apparently not paid sufficient attention to, but in light of = Steve's data and findings, thought it might be pertinent to the = discussions. From the EC2 instruction Manual: =20 01-07-06 update. Because the rotary has two injectors per rotor and they are staged = (see Mode 7 for details on staging), it is possible that the mixture might be miss-matched differently when staged or not staged. You may = have to match the EGTs once when the engine is staged (low power) and again when not staged (high power). So it appears that the EC2 has had the capability to adjust the = different in flow rates across the staging event since at least 2006. = But, perhaps like many others, I was not certain what conditions would = signify this needed adjusting (until Steve's data and analysis) and = therefore never attempted any adjustment (my dumb!) - my philosophy = being if it is working well and you don't have a clue as to what/why you = are adjusting something - then DON'T! {:>) The only "problem" (actually more of an irritant than a problem) I = have ever encountered using the EC2 was the staging "bog" I would = encounter while operating on the ground which I finally eliminated. = What I did was to enrich the fuel MAP in the 3-4 bins in the High MAP = region that the engine point jumped to after staging. This did solve = my staging bob - but, after reading the EC2 instructions again, I can = see that if I probably should have used Mode 6 to accomplish this as my = adjustment was just for 3-4 bins and not all bins. Once again Tracy has addressed the need in the Ec2/3 - but, I just = failed to understand the function (and conditions) it might have = addressed. Now that Steve has clearly shown there is a high probability = that adjusting the staging flow rate will result in more accurate fuel = totalizer values and other fuel factors, I can now see a reason to use = mode 6. Thanks, guys - discussions on this list is generally always = educational and helpful Ed =20 Edward L. Anderson Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC 305 Reefton Road Weddington, NC 28104 http://www.andersonee.com http://www.eicommander.com ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01CB7DCE.F6F8B320 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dennis, the EC2/3 puts out a stream of data from = its=20 serial port as you know. 
 
One of the bytes of data it sends is the = "Staging=20 Byte". How this byte is configured (zero or one) tells the EM2 = whether the=20 EC has staged or not.  If all four injectors are firing the value = is=20 logic zero  (near volts in this case), if only the primaries = are=20 firing then the values is logical one  (near 5 = volts).  If=20 the EC staged then the flow rate will be calculated as 2 X primary = injector flow=20 rate (assuming all four injectors are the same flow rate).
 
 
Generally, when I have experienced this problem, = the flow=20 rate does not "HANG UP" at the exact value it was before you drop = below the=20 staging point - but, the fuel flow value displayed does remain = about=20 twice whatever the current actual primary flow rate is - because the = multipy=20 factor of 2 due to the last value of the valid staging byte before you = dropped=20 below the staging point. Once you dropped below the staging point the = EC2/3=20 should send a staging byte with the value indicating so, if it does not = or the=20 EM does not receive it for some reason then it will continue to multiply = the=20 primary flow rate by 2.
 
 
I use this Staging byte for the same purposes in = my EFISM=20 display.   I have had this happen for two reasons.  One = is the=20 individual switches from the  EC monitor mode while the = staging byte=20 is set for four injectors - and the user has disabled the EFISM = continous EC=20 monitor mode which monitors for changes in the staging byte - even = when not=20 in the EC viewing mode.   The other reason is possibly noise = on the=20 serial link.  
 
So the likely reason your EM is reflecting =  the wrong=20 or a "hung up" flow rate is that some noise or something is affecting = the EM's=20 receipt or interpretation of this staging byte over the serial = link. =20
 
Now if your fuel flow value is actually hung up = at an=20 unchanging value rather than some value twice what it = should be=20  then that is a different problem
 
Ed. 
 
 
 

From: Dennis Havarlah
Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2010 12:06 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: EM-2 fuel flow readings - Above and = Below=20 stagging

Bill has "seen" the same problem I've = seen for=20 several years and could not get fixed.  Fuel flow while operating = staged=20 is very low and the EM-2 shows the correct rate when you first = start the=20 engine and you have not operated above staging. =20
After I open the throttle to above the staging point - take off = and fly=20 - and than reduce throttle to below the staging point when descending to land - my EM-2 fuel flow rate = "hangs-up" and=20 continues to show the higher flow rate it showed at the higher manifold = pressure=20 above staging.  I have not found any way to fix = this.
 
Bill experienced this when he = intentionally went=20 above staging and than reduced the throttle to below staging on the = ground=20 during EC-2 tuning.
 
My staging point is set at 16 in. = MP.
 
Dennis H.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Bill=20 Bradburry
Sent: Saturday, November 06, = 2010 9:32=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Staging=20 Adjustment in EC2 since 2006

I have been = working=20 with staging for a couple of days and have my normal confusion. =20

I have the = Renesis=20 engine but I have changed the red primary and blue secondary injectors = to all=20 yellow injectors.  This gives me roughly the same fuel flow = capability=20 when all four injectors are on, but a higher flow capability when only = the=20 primary are on as compared to the normal Renesis.=20

My staging = point is=20 set at 15 inches.  I know that is lower than Tracy = recommends, but it=20 reduces the cooling requirements while I mess with it.  I may = change it=20 later if I figure out what I am doing and get better (faster) at = fixing the=20 settings.

If I have = the=20 manifold pressure above the staging point and slowly lower it, it is a = smooth=20 transition and there is no indication that I can see or hear that the = staging=20 has changed.  BUT!

 

If I have = the=20 pressure below 15 and slowly raise it, it seems to me that the engine = is=20 trying to make a decision as I go above 15, until I get to about 15.5, = then it=20 suddenly makes a different sound and jumps to 16.0-16.5.  These = bins are=20 about 43 or 44 at 15 inches and it always jumps to 47 or 48.  The = map=20 table levels in this area are close to the same. =20

I have not = been able=20 to determine if the change need is to lean or richen the = mixture.  If you=20 read the study Steve did, it would seem that it needs to=20 richen??

I tried a = suggestion=20 I read of Tracy=92s=85I checked the fuel flow = just below=20 the stage point, 2.7 gal/hr.  then above the stage point.4.1 = gal/hr.=20   This caused me to conclude that I needed to lean it, so I = lowered=20 it back down below the stage point to get started trying it and Whups! = The=20 fuel flow was still at 4+gal/hr!  I waited for it to lower but it = didn=92t???

 

I realize = this sounds=20 like I am rambling=85..so what else is = new!

 

Any = insights would be=20 welcome.

 

Bill=20 B

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Ed Anderson
Sent: Saturday, November 06, = 2010 9:38=20 AM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Staging = Adjustment=20 in EC2 since 2006

 

Pertaining to Steve's = data and=20 analysis and Tracy's comments about Mode 6 of = the=20 EC.

 

I went back and read up = on the Ec2=20 modes and found this statement which I had apparently not paid = sufficient=20 attention to, but in light of Steve's data and findings, thought it = might be=20 pertinent to the discussions.  From the EC2 instruction=20 Manual:

 

01-07-06=20 update.

Because the = rotary has two=20 injectors per rotor and they are staged (see Mode 7 for details on = staging),=20 it is possible that the mixture

might be=20 miss-matched differently when staged or not=20 staged. You may have to match the EGTs = once when=20 the engine is staged

(low power) and = again when=20 not staged (high power).

So it appears that the = EC2 has had=20 the capability to adjust the different in flow rates across the = staging event=20 since at least 2006.  = But, perhaps=20 like many others, I was not certain  what conditions would = signify this=20 needed adjusting (until Steve's data and analysis)  and = therefore=20 never attempted any adjustment (my dumb!)  - my philosophy being = if it is=20 working well and you don't have a clue as to what/why you are = adjusting=20 something - then DON'T! {:>)

The only "problem" = (actually more=20 of an irritant than a problem)  I have ever encountered using the = EC2 was=20 the staging "bog" I would encounter while operating on the ground = which I=20 finally eliminated.  What I did was to enrich the fuel MAP = in the=20 3-4 bins in the High MAP region that the engine point jumped to after=20 staging.   This did solve my staging bob - but, after = reading the=20 EC2 instructions again, I can see that if I probably should have used = Mode 6=20 to accomplish this as my adjustment was just for 3-4 bins and not all=20 bins.

Once again Tracy has = addressed the=20 need in the  Ec2/3 - but, I just failed to understand the = function (and=20 conditions) it might have addressed.  Now that Steve has clearly = shown=20 there is a high probability that adjusting the staging flow rate will = result=20 in more accurate fuel totalizer values and other fuel  factors, I = can now=20 see a reason to use mode 6.

Thanks, guys - = discussions on this=20 list is generally always educational and = helpful

Ed

 

Edward L. = Anderson
Anderson = Electronic=20 Enterprises LLC
305 Reefton=20 Road
Weddington, NC=20 28104
http://www.andersonee.com
http://www.eicommander.com=

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