X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from willowsprings.uwyo.edu ([129.72.10.31] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.10) with ESMTPS id 4557962 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 06 Nov 2010 15:05:34 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=129.72.10.31; envelope-from=SBoese@uwyo.edu Received: from ponyexpress-ht2.uwyo.edu (ponyexpress-ht2.uwyo.edu [10.84.60.209]) by willowsprings.uwyo.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id oA6J4uQM026945 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Sat, 6 Nov 2010 13:04:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from SBoese@uwyo.edu) Received: from ponyexpress-mb5.uwyo.edu ([fe80::9813:248c:2d68:a28b]) by ponyexpress-ht2 ([10.84.60.209]) with mapi; Sat, 6 Nov 2010 13:04:55 -0600 From: "Steven W. Boese" To: Rotary motors in aircraft Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 13:04:49 -0600 Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Staging Adjustment in EC2 since 2006 Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] Re: Staging Adjustment in EC2 since 2006 Thread-Index: Act9v5rR502qJh8GSnaT1UYB2Mu8EwAIpELA Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_E1AA3B1AF41D8049B1E3FBD5E225626004E4EE6425ponyexpressmb_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_E1AA3B1AF41D8049B1E3FBD5E225626004E4EE6425ponyexpressmb_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill, My take on what you are seeing is this: When advancing the throttle slowly at the staging threshold of 15.5", the c= ontroller stages. When it does this, the mixture goes lean. When the mixture goes lean, the engine makes less power and the RPM decreas= es. When the RPM decreases, the air volume required goes down and the manifold = pressure rises even if the throttle setting hasn't changed right then. The increase in manifold pressure requires the controller to skip to the bi= ns corresponding to the new manifold pressure. As Ed suggests, looking at the oxygen sensor output (air-fuel mixture meter= ) will tell you if things are rich or lean at any given moment. Looking at= the fuel flow will be harder to interpret. Trying to adjust the staging conditions at a low manifold pressure makes it= harder because the fuel flow change that occurs on staging is much more si= gnificant at low fuel flow rates than at high fuel flow rates. Personally, I set the staging threshold as high as the primary injector flo= w rate will allow. That minimizes the fuel flow change on staging. At the= density altitudes I have to work with, I seldom use the secondary injector= s (stock 460 cc) and the engine makes more than enough power to fly safely. Another thing that may be worth looking into is the RPM that the engine is = running at when staging occurs. For my controller, at least, looking at th= e mixture correction table address assignments page at the end of the manua= l, the addresses make a jump to a different part of the table at 3800 RPM. = If the system is staging at close to that RPM, then getting the system tun= ed may be even more difficult if the same part of the table isn't being use= d every time staging occurs. This makes sense to me... but I could be wrong. Steve Boese From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beh= alf Of Bill Bradburry Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2010 8:33 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Staging Adjustment in EC2 since 2006 I have been working with staging for a couple of days and have my normal co= nfusion. I have the Renesis engine but I have changed the red primary and blue secon= dary injectors to all yellow injectors. This gives me roughly the same fue= l flow capability when all four injectors are on, but a higher flow capabil= ity when only the primary are on as compared to the normal Renesis. My staging point is set at 15 inches. I know that is lower than Tracy reco= mmends, but it reduces the cooling requirements while I mess with it. I ma= y change it later if I figure out what I am doing and get better (faster) a= t fixing the settings. If I have the manifold pressure above the staging point and slowly lower it= , it is a smooth transition and there is no indication that I can see or he= ar that the staging has changed. BUT! If I have the pressure below 15 and slowly raise it, it seems to me that th= e engine is trying to make a decision as I go above 15, until I get to abou= t 15.5, then it suddenly makes a different sound and jumps to 16.0-16.5. T= hese bins are about 43 or 44 at 15 inches and it always jumps to 47 or 48. = The map table levels in this area are close to the same. I have not been able to determine if the change need is to lean or richen t= he mixture. If you read the study Steve did, it would seem that it needs t= o richen?? I tried a suggestion I read of Tracy's...I checked the fuel flow just below= the stage point, 2.7 gal/hr. then above the stage point.4.1 gal/hr. Thi= s caused me to conclude that I needed to lean it, so I lowered it back down= below the stage point to get started trying it and Whups! The fuel flow wa= s still at 4+gal/hr! I waited for it to lower but it didn't??? I realize this sounds like I am rambling.....so what else is new! Any insights would be welcome. Bill B ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beh= alf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2010 9:38 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Staging Adjustment in EC2 since 2006 Pertaining to Steve's data and analysis and Tracy's comments about Mode 6 o= f the EC. I went back and read up on the Ec2 modes and found this statement which I h= ad apparently not paid sufficient attention to, but in light of Steve's dat= a and findings, thought it might be pertinent to the discussions. From the= EC2 instruction Manual: 01-07-06 update. Because the rotary has two injectors per rotor and they are staged (see Mod= e 7 for details on staging), it is possible that the mixture might be miss-matched differently when staged or not staged. You may have t= o match the EGTs once when the engine is staged (low power) and again when not staged (high power). So it appears that the EC2 has had the capability to adjust the different i= n flow rates across the staging event since at least 2006. But, perhaps li= ke many others, I was not certain what conditions would signify this neede= d adjusting (until Steve's data and analysis) and therefore never attempte= d any adjustment (my dumb!) - my philosophy being if it is working well an= d you don't have a clue as to what/why you are adjusting something - then D= ON'T! {:>) The only "problem" (actually more of an irritant than a problem) I have ev= er encountered using the EC2 was the staging "bog" I would encounter while = operating on the ground which I finally eliminated. What I did was to enri= ch the fuel MAP in the 3-4 bins in the High MAP region that the engine poin= t jumped to after staging. This did solve my staging bob - but, after rea= ding the EC2 instructions again, I can see that if I probably should have u= sed Mode 6 to accomplish this as my adjustment was just for 3-4 bins and no= t all bins. Once again Tracy has addressed the need in the Ec2/3 - but, I just failed = to understand the function (and conditions) it might have addressed. Now t= hat Steve has clearly shown there is a high probability that adjusting the = staging flow rate will result in more accurate fuel totalizer values and ot= her fuel factors, I can now see a reason to use mode 6. Thanks, guys - discussions on this list is generally always educational and= helpful Ed Edward L. Anderson Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC 305 Reefton Road Weddington, NC 28104 http://www.andersonee.com http://www.eicommander.com --_000_E1AA3B1AF41D8049B1E3FBD5E225626004E4EE6425ponyexpressmb_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Bill,

 

My take on what you are seeing is this:

When advancing the throttle slowly at the staging threshold = of 15.5”, the controller stages. 

When it does this, the mixture goes lean.<= /p>

When the mixture goes lean, the engine makes less power and = the RPM decreases.

When the RPM decreases, the air volume required goes down an= d the manifold pressure rises even if the throttle setting hasn’t changed r= ight then.

The increase in manifold pressure requires the controller to skip to the bins corresponding to the new manifold pressure.

 

As Ed suggests, looking at the oxygen sensor output (air-fue= l mixture meter) will tell you if things are rich or lean at any given moment.  Looking at the fuel flow will be harder to interpret.  <= o:p>

 

Trying to adjust the staging conditions at a low manifold pressure makes it harder because the fuel flow change that occurs on stagin= g is much more significant at low fuel flow rates than at high fuel flow rates.<= o:p>

 

Personally, I set the staging threshold as high as the prima= ry injector flow rate will allow.  That minimizes the fuel flow change on staging.  At the density altitudes I have to work with, I seldom use t= he secondary injectors (stock 460 cc) and the engine makes more than enough po= wer to fly safely.

 

Another thing that may be worth looking into is the RPM that= the engine is running at when staging occurs.  For my controller, at least= , looking at the mixture correction table address assignments page at the end= of the manual, the addresses make a jump to a different part of the table at 3= 800 RPM.  If the system is staging at close to that RPM, then getting the system tuned may be even more difficult if the same part of the table isn&#= 8217;t being used every time staging occurs.

 

This makes sense to me… but I could be wrong.

 

Steve Boese

 

 

 

  

 

From: Rotary motors= in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry
Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2010 8:33 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Staging Adjustment in EC2 since 2006

 

I have been working with staging for a couple of days and have = my normal confusion. 

I have the Renesis engine but I have changed the red primary an= d blue secondary injectors to all yellow injectors.  This gives me rough= ly the same fuel flow capability when all four injectors are on, but a higher = flow capability when only the primary are on as compared to the normal Renesis. =

My staging point is set at 15 inches.  I know that is lowe= r than Tracy recommends, but it reduces the cooling requirements while I mess with it.  I may change it later if I figure out what I am doing and ge= t better (faster) at fixing the settings.

If I have the manifold pressure above the staging point and slo= wly lower it, it is a smooth transition and there is no indication that I can s= ee or hear that the staging has changed.  BUT!

 

If I have the pressure below 15 and slowly raise it, it seems t= o me that the engine is trying to make a decision as I go above 15, until I get = to about 15.5, then it suddenly makes a different sound and jumps to 16.0-16.5.  These bins are about 43 or 44 at 15 inches and it always j= umps to 47 or 48.  The map table levels in this area are close to the same. 

I have not been able to determine if the change need is to lean= or richen the mixture.  If you read the study Steve did, it would seem th= at it needs to richen??

I tried a suggestion I read of Tracy’s…I checked th= e fuel flow just below the stage point, 2.7 gal/hr.  then above the stag= e point.4.1 gal/hr.   This caused me to conclude that I needed to l= ean it, so I lowered it back down below the stage point to get started trying i= t and Whups! The fuel flow was still at 4+gal/hr!  I waited for it to lo= wer but it didn’t???

 

I realize this sounds like I am rambling…..so what else i= s new!

 

Any insights would be welcome.

 

Bill B

From: Rotary motors= in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anders= on
Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2010 9:38 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Staging Adjustment in EC2 since 2006

 

Perta= ining to Steve's data and analysis and Tracy's comments about Mode 6 of the EC.

 

I wen= t back and read up on the Ec2 modes and found this statement which I had apparentl= y not paid sufficient attention to, but in light of Steve's data and findings= , thought it might be pertinent to the discussions.  From the EC2 instruction Manual:

 

01-07-06 update.

Because the rotary has= two injectors per rotor and they are staged (see Mode 7 for details on staging)= , it is possible that the mixture

might be miss-matched differently when staged or not staged<= span style=3D'font-family:TimesNewRoman'>. You may have to match the EGTs once w= hen the engine is staged

(low power) and again = when not staged (high power).

So it appears that the = EC2 has had the capability to adjust the different in flow rates across the sta= ging event since at least 2006.  But, perhaps like many others, I was not certain  what conditions woul= d signify this needed adjusting (until Steve's data and analysis)  = and therefore never attempted any adjustment (my dumb!)  - my philosophy b= eing if it is working well and you don't have a clue as to what/why you are adjusting something - then DON'T! {:>)

The only "problem&= quot; (actually more of an irritant than a problem)  I have ever encountered using the EC2 was the staging "bog" I would encounter while opera= ting on the ground which I finally eliminated.  What I did was to enri= ch the fuel MAP in the 3-4 bins in the High MAP region that the engine point jumped to after staging.   This did solve my staging bob - but, a= fter reading the EC2 instructions again, I can see that if I probably should hav= e used Mode 6 to accomplish this as my adjustment was just for 3-4 bins and n= ot all bins.=

Once again Tracy has addressed the need in the  Ec2/3 - but, I just failed to understand th= e function (and conditions) it might have addressed.  Now that Steve has clearly shown there is a high probability that adjusting the staging flow r= ate will result in more accurate fuel totalizer values and other fuel  factors, I can now see a reason to use mode 6.

Thanks, guys - discussi= ons on this list is generally always educational and helpful

Ed

 

Edwar= d L. Anderson
Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC
305 Reefton Road
Weddington, NC 28104
http://www.andersonee.com
http://www.eicommander.com

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