X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from hrndva-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([71.74.56.125] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.10) with ESMTP id 4557880 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 06 Nov 2010 13:14:24 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=71.74.56.125; envelope-from=clouduster@austin.rr.com Return-Path: X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=+c36koQ5Dcj/1qolKHjtkYAGXvrVJRRiKMp+84F5sLg= c=1 sm=0 a=b4t5invQ8cwA:10 a=04I7FWNrTfP4RHm++yk/MQ==:17 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=arxwEM4EAAAA:8 a=r1ClD_H3AAAA:8 a=USvWiCoNwAFbFlEGyMUA:9 a=_hx-gUW5131Nvv5euzcA:7 a=S292knmSnDdQrSbxaaad5T_1PGoA:4 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=Eyb1HUC0jxpzL8YJ:21 a=noWvbExju0yJbZ7Y:21 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=pedpZTtsAAAA:8 a=mGMTQ-pyRKA-LMK1zc0A:9 a=1XZH8uaSjSOKRU2v_6IA:7 a=3lvaeU0_eenKia_lFvXpQTncKQIA:4 a=eJojReuL3h0A:10 a=04I7FWNrTfP4RHm++yk/MQ==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 70.113.14.52 Received: from [70.113.14.52] ([70.113.14.52:52152] helo=DWHPC) by hrndva-oedge03.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id BF/F4-24070-BCC85DC4; Sat, 06 Nov 2010 17:13:48 +0000 Message-ID: From: "Dennis Havarlah" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: EM-2 fuel flow readings - Above and Below stagging Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 12:13:45 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0417_01CB7DAC.0F9A52D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6002.18197 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6002.18263 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0417_01CB7DAC.0F9A52D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have 500 and 550 cc injectors IIR. They are almost identical. I see = MP in the 10 to 15 in the pattern most of the time. Dennis ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill Bradburry=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2010 11:12 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: EM-2 fuel flow readings - Above and Below = stagging Dennis, Do you have same size injectors? What manifold pressure do you use in = the pattern? Not having flown yet, I don't know what to expect for = power settings at various flight regimes. If someone could throw in a = few it would be appreciated. =20 Bill B =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Dennis Havarlah Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2010 12:06 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: EM-2 fuel flow readings - Above and Below = stagging =20 Bill has "seen" the same problem I've seen for several years and could = not get fixed. Fuel flow while operating staged is very low and the = EM-2 shows the correct rate when you first start the engine and you have = not operated above staging. =20 After I open the throttle to above the staging point - take off and = fly - and than reduce throttle to below the staging point when = descending to land - my EM-2 fuel flow rate "hangs-up" and continues to = show the higher flow rate it showed at the higher manifold pressure = above staging. I have not found any way to fix this. =20 Bill experienced this when he intentionally went above staging and = than reduced the throttle to below staging on the ground during EC-2 = tuning. =20 My staging point is set at 16 in. MP. =20 Dennis H. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill Bradburry=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2010 9:32 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Staging Adjustment in EC2 since 2006 =20 I have been working with staging for a couple of days and have my = normal confusion. =20 I have the Renesis engine but I have changed the red primary and = blue secondary injectors to all yellow injectors. This gives me roughly = the same fuel flow capability when all four injectors are on, but a = higher flow capability when only the primary are on as compared to the = normal Renesis.=20 My staging point is set at 15 inches. I know that is lower than = Tracy recommends, but it reduces the cooling requirements while I mess = with it. I may change it later if I figure out what I am doing and get = better (faster) at fixing the settings. If I have the manifold pressure above the staging point and slowly = lower it, it is a smooth transition and there is no indication that I = can see or hear that the staging has changed. BUT! =20 If I have the pressure below 15 and slowly raise it, it seems to me = that the engine is trying to make a decision as I go above 15, until I = get to about 15.5, then it suddenly makes a different sound and jumps to = 16.0-16.5. These bins are about 43 or 44 at 15 inches and it always = jumps to 47 or 48. The map table levels in this area are close to the = same. =20 I have not been able to determine if the change need is to lean or = richen the mixture. If you read the study Steve did, it would seem that = it needs to richen?? I tried a suggestion I read of Tracy's.I checked the fuel flow just = below the stage point, 2.7 gal/hr. then above the stage point.4.1 = gal/hr. This caused me to conclude that I needed to lean it, so I = lowered it back down below the stage point to get started trying it and = Whups! The fuel flow was still at 4+gal/hr! I waited for it to lower = but it didn't??? =20 I realize this sounds like I am rambling...so what else is new! =20 Any insights would be welcome. =20 Bill B -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2010 9:38 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Staging Adjustment in EC2 since 2006 =20 Pertaining to Steve's data and analysis and Tracy's comments about = Mode 6 of the EC. =20 I went back and read up on the Ec2 modes and found this statement = which I had apparently not paid sufficient attention to, but in light of = Steve's data and findings, thought it might be pertinent to the = discussions. From the EC2 instruction Manual: =20 01-07-06 update. Because the rotary has two injectors per rotor and they are staged = (see Mode 7 for details on staging), it is possible that the mixture might be miss-matched differently when staged or not staged. You may = have to match the EGTs once when the engine is staged (low power) and again when not staged (high power). So it appears that the EC2 has had the capability to adjust the = different in flow rates across the staging event since at least 2006. = But, perhaps like many others, I was not certain what conditions would = signify this needed adjusting (until Steve's data and analysis) and = therefore never attempted any adjustment (my dumb!) - my philosophy = being if it is working well and you don't have a clue as to what/why you = are adjusting something - then DON'T! {:>) The only "problem" (actually more of an irritant than a problem) I = have ever encountered using the EC2 was the staging "bog" I would = encounter while operating on the ground which I finally eliminated. = What I did was to enrich the fuel MAP in the 3-4 bins in the High MAP = region that the engine point jumped to after staging. This did solve = my staging bob - but, after reading the EC2 instructions again, I can = see that if I probably should have used Mode 6 to accomplish this as my = adjustment was just for 3-4 bins and not all bins. Once again Tracy has addressed the need in the Ec2/3 - but, I just = failed to understand the function (and conditions) it might have = addressed. Now that Steve has clearly shown there is a high probability = that adjusting the staging flow rate will result in more accurate fuel = totalizer values and other fuel factors, I can now see a reason to use = mode 6. Thanks, guys - discussions on this list is generally always = educational and helpful Ed =20 Edward L. Anderson Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC 305 Reefton Road Weddington, NC 28104 http://www.andersonee.com http://www.eicommander.com ------=_NextPart_000_0417_01CB7DAC.0F9A52D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have 500 and 550 cc injectors = IIR.  They are=20 almost identical.  I see MP in the 10 to 15 in the pattern most of = the=20 time.
 
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Bill=20 Bradburry
Sent: Saturday, November 06, = 2010 11:12=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: EM-2 = fuel flow=20 readings - Above and Below stagging

Dennis,

Do you have = same size=20 injectors?  What manifold pressure do you use in the = pattern?  Not=20 having flown yet, I don=92t know what to expect for power settings at = various=20 flight regimes.  If someone could throw in a few it would be=20 appreciated.

 

Bill=20 B

 

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Dennis Havarlah
Sent: Saturday, November 06, = 2010 12:06=20 PM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: EM-2 = fuel flow=20 readings - Above and Below stagging

 

Bill has "seen" the same = problem=20 I've seen for several years and could not get fixed.  Fuel flow = while=20 operating staged is very low and the EM-2 shows the correct = rate=20 when you first start the engine and you have not operated above = staging. 
After I open the throttle to above the = staging=20 point - take off and fly - and than reduce throttle to below the = staging point=20 when descending to land - my EM-2 fuel flow rate "hangs-up" = and=20 continues to show the higher flow rate it showed at the higher = manifold=20 pressure above staging.  I have not found any way to fix=20 this.

 

Bill experienced this = when he=20 intentionally went above staging and than reduced the throttle to = below=20 staging on the ground during EC-2 = tuning.

 

My staging point is set = at 16 in.=20 MP.

 

Dennis=20 H.

----- Original Message = -----=20

From: Bill=20 Bradburry

To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20

Sent:=20 Saturday, November 06, 2010 9:32 = AM

Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: Staging Adjustment in EC2 since=20 2006

 

I have = been working=20 with staging for a couple of days and have my normal = confusion. =20

I have = the Renesis=20 engine but I have changed the red primary and blue secondary = injectors to=20 all yellow injectors.  This gives me roughly the same fuel flow = capability when all four injectors are on, but a higher flow = capability when=20 only the primary are on as compared to the normal Renesis.=20

My = staging point is=20 set at 15 inches.  I know that is lower than Tracy = recommends, but=20 it reduces the cooling requirements while I mess with it.  I = may change=20 it later if I figure out what I am doing and get better (faster) at = fixing=20 the settings.

If I have = the=20 manifold pressure above the staging point and slowly lower it, it is = a=20 smooth transition and there is no indication that I can see or hear = that the=20 staging has changed.  BUT!

 

If I have = the=20 pressure below 15 and slowly raise it, it seems to me that the = engine is=20 trying to make a decision as I go above 15, until I get to about = 15.5, then=20 it suddenly makes a different sound and jumps to 16.0-16.5.  = These bins=20 are about 43 or 44 at 15 inches and it always jumps to 47 or = 48.  The=20 map table levels in this area are close to the same. =20

I have = not been=20 able to determine if the change need is to lean or richen the = mixture. =20 If you read the study Steve did, it would seem that it needs to=20 richen??

I tried a = suggestion I read of Tracy=92s=85I checked the fuel = flow just below=20 the stage point, 2.7 gal/hr.  then above the stage point.4.1 = gal/hr.=20   This caused me to conclude that I needed to lean it, so = I=20 lowered it back down below the stage point to get started trying it = and=20 Whups! The fuel flow was still at 4+gal/hr!  I waited for it to = lower=20 but it didn=92t???

 

I realize = this=20 sounds like I am rambling=85..so what else is=20 new!

 

Any = insights would=20 be welcome.

 

Bill=20 B

From:=20 Rotary motors in = aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Ed Anderson
Sent: Saturday, November 06, = 2010 9:38=20 AM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Staging = Adjustment=20 in EC2 since 2006

 

Pertaining to Steve's = data and=20 analysis and Tracy's comments about Mode 6 of = the=20 EC.

 

I went back and read = up on the=20 Ec2 modes and found this statement which I had apparently not paid=20 sufficient attention to, but in light of Steve's data and findings, = thought=20 it might be pertinent to the discussions.  From the EC2 = instruction=20 Manual:

 

01-07-06=20 update.

Because the = rotary has=20 two injectors per rotor and they are staged (see Mode 7 for details = on=20 staging), it is possible that the mixture

might be=20 miss-matched differently when staged or not=20 staged. You may have to match the = EGTs once=20 when the engine is staged

(low power) = and again=20 when not staged (high power).

So it appears that the = EC2 has=20 had the capability to adjust the different in flow rates across the = staging=20 event since at least 2006.  = But,=20 perhaps like many others, I was not certain  what conditions = would=20 signify this needed adjusting (until Steve's data and analysis) =  and therefore never attempted any adjustment (my dumb!) =  - my=20 philosophy being if it is working well and you don't have a clue as = to=20 what/why you are adjusting something - then DON'T!=20 {:>)

The only "problem" = (actually=20 more of an irritant than a problem)  I have ever encountered = using the=20 EC2 was the staging "bog" I would encounter while operating on the = ground=20 which I finally eliminated.  What I did was to enrich the = fuel MAP=20 in the 3-4 bins in the High MAP region that the engine point jumped = to after=20 staging.   This did solve my staging bob - but, after = reading the=20 EC2 instructions again, I can see that if I probably should have = used Mode 6=20 to accomplish this as my adjustment was just for 3-4 bins and not = all=20 bins.

Once again Tracy has = addressed the=20 need in the  Ec2/3 - but, I just failed to understand the = function (and=20 conditions) it might have addressed.  Now that Steve has = clearly shown=20 there is a high probability that adjusting the staging flow rate = will result=20 in more accurate fuel totalizer values and other fuel  factors, = I can=20 now see a reason to use mode 6.

Thanks, guys - = discussions on=20 this list is generally always educational and=20 helpful

Ed

 

Edward L. = Anderson
Anderson = Electronic=20 Enterprises LLC
305 Reefton=20 Road
Weddington, NC=20 28104
http://www.andersonee.com
http://www.eicommander.com=

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