X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nm25-vm0.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.91.228] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.10) with SMTP id 4552157 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 11:15:45 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.91.228; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: from [98.139.91.61] by nm25.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Nov 2010 15:15:09 -0000 Received: from [98.139.91.40] by tm1.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Nov 2010 15:15:08 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1040.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Nov 2010 15:15:08 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 978334.74931.bm@omp1040.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 85224 invoked by uid 60001); 2 Nov 2010 15:15:07 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1288710907; bh=nGI3vZ6xLhDzdAovdm9wMLK1H8yIKK0eznEXar+PfmU=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=DSi9QxNyq9wEsUdIX8ZTweUIPqXVGF/30fellUtsrKvrulLrIgpsPN7ni96eoW7d/opxweetPMGpCc5tTtIuZH1zSyu3QmfTUcVUKAUnQVPWaE6O4DJp4F/UQTl+eCPGSuSn1Ku73ACPgdsD+v/eUSZX446qa/knVVmUHA96ODc= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=att.net; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=2RpacBgzJND6qwn3yRG59lNAlijeOAc6S14Go+293XWINTzpAzZqk24JvjvGyEqKGVlVHYJbMwfsmz/h+uiIqU+ET4w1aEDdXgUQJx2Cb2k8rLyx1henRy6+AbYrkAi/8V2k1gUg+GEMcNtF2yPO0WqBbPT8had2kIJLNq+TFus=; Message-ID: <284414.78164.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: k__KWtwVM1kkgnk2CiY.sw3r0vB8EgWT6R54.Lo8XEuLe.N ngzYu06H83ojMfY91EwzIJsiRT6Y212m79SDDZLkmhA2B7NLWDOWp_nMpuFZ JxmC2Wz2c4r9qJt3Cw2F7l.RUQg44fIYKK_XQvheBAa4TisZlZNAckNCe0OC aZ_urzBuCQVvoJKLFP3GFtePaL9EZf2VXuYzEURjLtBBWXMrP41nrKhB70vh AJCMgcOijsshaNFiN1W9lrVSH32QmMhxvteo24cSnnvrJMDOZL9RULpljX60 070fueJ.C.gcATNZA Received: from [208.114.43.76] by web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 08:15:07 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/504.5 YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.284920 References: Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 08:15:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Kelly Troyer Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: EM2 Numbers To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-690567903-1288710907=:78164" --0-690567903-1288710907=:78164 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark,=0A=C2=A0Here are specs for the "DEKA" IV injectors...............Stan= dard =0Ahigh=C2=A0impedance (12 + ohms)=0A=0A=09* Coil Resistance: 12.5 Ohm= s / High Impedance / High-Z (No ECM driver =0Amodifications required) =0A= =0A=09* Static Flow Rate @ 43.5PSI ( 300kPa ) w/Gas: 60 lb/hr =3D 630 cc/mi= n =3D 453 =0Ag/min =0A=0A=09* Static Flow Rate @ 87PSI ( 600kPa ) w/Gas: 85= .7 lb/hr =3D 900 cc/min =3D 648 =0Ag/min =0A=0A=09* Gain: 0.11ms/mg =0A=09*= Offset: 0.055ms =0A=09* Turn on time @ 14VDC: 1.14ms =0A=09* Turn off time= : 0.85ms @ 600KPa =0A=09* Connector: Bosch EV1 =0A=09* Series: DEKA 4 ( DEK= A IV ) =0A=09* Orifice Type: Multi-orifice =0A=09* Spray Pattern: 30 Degree= Spray Cone =0A=C2=A0=0AKelly Troyer=0A"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A"13B= ROTARY"_ Engine=0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A= "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________= =0AFrom: Mark Steitle =0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft = =0ASent: Tue, November 2, 2010 10:03:12 AM=0AS= ubject: [FlyRotary] Re: EM2 Numbers=0A=0AEd,=C2=A0 =0A=0AI measure the mani= fold pressure at the unused oil injection ports in the rotor =0Ahousings. = =C2=A0The EM-2 MAP reads in the upper 20's while at WOT, so I don't think I= =0Ahave a problem with this. =C2=A0The MCT was as received, which was set = up for Tracy's =0Ainjectors. =C2=A0I assume they were 460cc, but that's jus= t a guess. =C2=A0I'm running 60# =0ADEKA IV injectors. =C2=A0Could there po= ssibly be an impedance mismatch between the =0Atwo types? =C2=A0=0A=0AMark= =0A=0A=0AOn Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 9:09 AM, Ed Anderson wrote:=0A=0AHi Mark,=0A>=C2=A0=0A>Injectors are certainly large enoug= h - six=C2=A0 injectors at 60 lb/hr would give you =0A>a max flow rate capa= city of around 58 gallons/hour - far more than you are =0A>reporting fuel b= urn wise.=0A>=C2=A0=0A>I guess what I am wondering is how your manifold pre= ssure is registering at =0A>WOT.=C2=A0 The PP as I recall can have a proble= m providing reliable/consistent =0A>manifold pressure - no good source?=C2= =A0 So exactly how is your EC2/3 getting its =0A>manifold pressure signal ?= =C2=A0=C2=A0 What comes to mind is that if there is a problem =0A>getting a= good consistent manifold pressure reading at WOT - could that possibly =0A= >result in your injectors injecting less than you would expect.=0A>=C2=A0= =0A>In other words, if manifold pressure was low relative to what you would= expect =0A>at WOT (near ambient) then turning up the manual mixture contro= l would only =0A>provide adjustment against the smaller target pulse durati= on for that lower =0A>Manifold pressure rather than WOT manifold pressure.= =0A>=C2=A0=0A>Ed=0A>=C2=A0=0A>Edward L. Anderson=0A>Anderson Electronic Ent= erprises LLC=0A>305 Reefton Road=0A>Weddington, NC 28104=0A>http://www.ande= rsonee.com=0A>http://www.eicommander.com=0A>=0A>=C2=A0=0A>=C2=A0=0A>=C2=A0= =0A>=C2=A0=0A>=0A>=0A>From: stevei@carey.asn.au =0A>Sent: Tuesday, November= 02, 2010 8:24 AM=0A>To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>Subject: [FlyRotary]= Re: EM2 Numbers=0A>=0A>Hi Mark =0A>=0A>=0A>Are you in a position to confir= m your fuel rail pressure?=0A>Fuel injected =3D Pulse width AND injector si= ze AND fuel pressure.=0A>Cheers=0A>=0A>=0A>Steve Izett=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>O= n 02/11/2010, at 4:42 AM, Mark Steitle wrote:=0A>=0A>Tracy, =0A>>=0A>>As I = recall the low end numbers are around -50ish.=C2=A0 So there is still=C2=A0= room for =0A>>adjustment.=C2=A0 When running WOT, turning the mixture knob = full CW doesn't get the =0A>>mixture bar to show up on the EM-2 screen.=C2= =A0 I find this odd as I'm running 60# =0A>>injectors.=C2=A0 I guess that's= why the low end numbers are in the -50 range.=C2=A0 =0A>>=0A>>=0A>>I'll po= st a question on the Lancair list=C2=A0regarding the most efficient cruise = =0A>>speed for the=C2=A0Lancair ES airframe.=0A>>=0A>>Mark=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>= =C2=A0=0A>>On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 3:03 PM, Tracy = wrote:=0A>>=0A>>"So, if it is going LOP in those addresses, which it is,= =C2=A0it would explain why =0A>>power drops off as I open the throttle to W= OT."=0A>>>=0A>>>That's new data to me.=C2=A0 Yes, that would certainly caus= e a loss of power.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Are =0A>>>you able to compensate by tu= rning up the mixture control?=C2=A0 Are the MAP table =0A>>>values at the l= ow end above minimum value?=C2=A0 The right thing to do depends on =0A>>>th= ese answers.=C2=A0=C2=A0 If answer is yes to the 2nd one, then you should b= ump up the =0A>>>value in Mode 3.=0A>>>=0A>>>The most efficient point on mo= st airframes is the point where the induced drag =0A>>>curve crosses the pa= rasitic drag curve.=C2=A0 On RV's that happens at around an =0A>>>indicated= airspeed of 135 mph.=C2=A0 It will probably be higher than that on a =0A>>= >Lancair but I've never seen the curves on that airplane. =0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>= >Tracy=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Mark Steitle = wrote:=0A>>>=0A>>>Tracy wrote:=0A>>>>Having said that,= I think there is still a good possibility that your drop in =0A>>>>power a= bove 6000 is not due to runner length.=C2=A0=0A>>>>=0A>>>>Tracy,=0A>>>>I su= spect it could be tuning as I've hit the max adjustment=C2=A0(+127) on the = EC-2 =0A>>>>MCT for the addresses in the upper 20" range, so it looks like = I need to adjust =0A>>>>the injector pulse width and then start over on the= tuning.=C2=A0=C2=A0So, if it is going =0A>>>>LOP in those addresses, which= it is,=C2=A0it would explain why power drops off as I =0A>>>>open the thro= ttle to WOT.=C2=A0 I'll do more tuning when I get my updated EC-2 back.=C2= =A0 =0A>>>>(will go out in today's mail)=C2=A0 =0A>>>>=0A>>>>=0A>>>>Where d= oes one find the "most efficient operationg point" for a particular =0A>>>>= airframe?=C2=A0 Is this the same as=C2=A0LDmax?=0A>>>>=0A>>>>Mark=0A>>>>=0A= >>>>=0A>>>>On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 1:28 PM, Tracy = wrote:=0A>>>>=0A>>>>"The lowest fuel burn per HP generated always occurs a= t the torque peak as that =0A>>>>is where the engine takes in the most amou= nt of air for each revolution of the =0A>>>>engine.=C2=A0 The VE is optimum= .=C2=A0 In other words it is the most efficient operating =0A>>>>point for = the engine."=C2=A0 =0A>>>>=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>>Mark,=0A>>>>>=C2=A0That is the po= int of minimum pumping losses in the engine, NOT the most overall =0A>>>>>e= fficient point of operation.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 It ignores the many other fa= ctors that affect =0A>>>>>BSFC.=C2=A0=C2=A0 If you look at Mazda's data on = BSFC, the best point is usually around =0A>>>>>5000 rpm.=C2=A0 =0A>>>>>=0A>= >>>>=0A>>>>>It also ignores the most efficient operating point of your airf= rame.=C2=A0 If you =0A>>>>>tune the engine for a higher rpm torque peak you= WILL make more HP,=C2=A0 you will =0A>>>>>fly faster but you will burn a l= ot more fuel.=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>>Having said that, I think there is still a goo= d possibility that your drop in =0A>>>>>power above 6000 is not due to runn= er length.=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>>Tracy=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>>On M= on, Nov 1, 2010 at 11:54 AM, Mark Steitle wrote:=0A>>>= >>=0A>>>>>Al, =0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>Isn't the formula HP=3D (torque x = rpm)/5252.=C2=A0 =0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>I'm more focused on peak Volumetric Effi= ciency (VE).=C2=A0 According to Fundamentals =0A>>>>>>of Intake System Desi= gn, (ACRE)=C2=A0"The lowest fuel burn per HP generated always =0A>>>>>>occu= rs at the torque peak as that is where the engine takes in the most amount = =0A>>>>>>of air for each revolution of the engine.=C2=A0 The VE is optimum.= =C2=A0 In other words it =0A>>>>>>is the most efficient operating point for= the engine."=C2=A0 =0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>So, I will be good=C2=A0tuni= ng for=C2=A0peak torque.=C2=A0 Do you have a dyno chart on your 20B =0A>>>>= >>that you will share?=C2=A0 I find it interesting that your intake runners= are only =0A>>>>>>13".=C2=A0 =0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>Mark=0A>>>>>>=0A>>= >>>>=0A>>>>>>On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 11:10 AM, Al Gietzen wrote:=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>Keep in mind that the graph is peak torque (T));= not peak HP. =C2=A0The peak HP =0A>>>>>>(which is what you=E2=80=99re afte= r would be at higher rpm.=C2=A0 HP =3D T x RPM=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>=C2=A0=0A= >>>>>>>Al=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>=C2=A0=0A>>>>>>>-----Original Message-----=0A>= >>>>>>From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf =0A>>>>>>>Of stevei@carey.asn.au=0A>>>>>>>Sent: Monday, November = 01, 2010 1:09 AM=0A>>>>>>>To: Rotary motors in aircraft=0A>>>>>>>Subject: [= FlyRotary] Re: EM2 Numbers=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>=C2=A0=0A>>>>>>>Hi Mark =0A>>= >>>>>=0A>>>>>>>=C2=A0=0A>>>>>>>I have attached the Leman intake dimensions = from Paul L.=0A>>>>>>>Hope this is helpful. Can't remember whether this mea= surement was to the rotor =0A>>>>>>>face or manifold face.=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>= >>>=C2=A0=0A>>>>>>>Steve Izett=0A>>>>>>>Perth Western Australia=C2=A0=0A>>>= >>>>=0A>>>>>>>On 01/11/2010, at 8:40 AM, Mark Steitle wrote:= =0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>Bill, =0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>=C2=A0=0A= >>>>>>>I understand the sausage illustration.=C2=A0 But if=C2=A0what you pr= opose=C2=A0were true, then =0A>>>>>>>why did Mazda=C2=A0make such a major e= ffort to design and implement=C2=A0the variable =0A>>>>>>>intake on their L= eMans 26B p-port motor?=C2=A0 That tells me that=C2=A0runner length=C2=A0do= es =0A>>>>>>>make a significant difference on the p-port motor.=C2=A0 Also,= if tuned runners =0A>>>>>>>didn't matter for peripheral ports, then why do= they tune the exhaust runners on =0A>>>>>>>the 13B's?=C2=A0 Somewhere I ha= ve a chart showing the effect of runner length, but =0A>>>>>>>I'm not sure = that=C2=A0the data=C2=A0is from a=C2=A0p-port motor.=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>=C2= =A0=0A>>>>>>>Mark=0A>>>>>>>On Sun, Oct 31, 2010 at 7:27 PM, Bill Bradburry = =0A>>>>>>>wrote:=0A>>>>>>>Mark,=0A>>>>>>>I don= =E2=80=99t think that will work with the PP.=C2=A0 You never actually block= the inlet.=C2=A0 =0A>>>>>>>You just cut off the end of the flow of air as = the apex flies by and it starts =0A>>>>>>>to fill the next chamber.=C2=A0 T= hink of the flow as a long sausage that is going =0A>>>>>>>through a propel= ler made of a strand of wire 2 or 3 MM thick and being cut into =0A>>>>>>>s= ections.=C2=A0 It is never blocked. =C2=A0I doubt that there are any reflec= tions and if =0A>>>>>>>there are, they would be very small and of little be= nefit to enhance.=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>=C2=A0=0A>>>>>>>I think that is why th= e PP is so much stronger than the side port.=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>=C2=A0=0A>>= >>>>>Bill B=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>=C2=A0=0A>>>>>>>=0A_________________________= _______=0A=0A>>>>>>>From:Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancai= ronline.net] On Behalf Of =0A>>>>>>>Mark Steitle=0A>>>>>>>Sent: Sunday, Oct= ober 31, 2010 8:01 PM =0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>To: Rotary motors in aircraft=0A>= >>>>>>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: EM2 Numbers=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>=C2=A0=0A>>>>= >>>=0A>>>>>>>=C2=A0=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>=C2=A0=0A>>>>>>>George, =0A>>>>>>>= =0A>>>>>>>=C2=A0=0A>>>>>>>Sorry for the delayed reply, but I had to go to t= he hangar and measure the =0A>>>>>>>runner length to be sure.=C2=A0 It is 2= 4" bellmouth to rotor face, 2" OD.=C2=A0 Exhaust is =0A>>>>>>>2" OD also, r= unning the stock 20b exhaust splitters.=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>=C2=A0=0A>>>>>>>= So, my power seems to peak around 6000 rpm.=C2=A0 What length intake runner= length =0A>>>>>>>would it take to bring=C2=A0peak power=C2=A0up to around = 6500 rpm?=C2=A0 =0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>=C2=A0=0A>>>>>>>Mark=C2=A0 = =0A>>>>>>>On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 3:53 PM, George Lendich =0A>>>wrote:=0A>>>>>>>=C2=A0=C2=A0 Mark, =0A>>>>>>>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= That's interesting; can you tell me what is your PP size, runner length an= d =0A>>>>>>>exhaust header ID=C2=A0size.=0A>>>>>>>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0G= eorge (down under)=C2=A0=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>=C2=A0=0A>>>>>>>From:Mark Steit= le =0A>>>>>>>Sent:Saturday, October 30, 2010 7:38 PM=0A>>>>>>>To:Rotary mot= ors in aircraft =0A>>>>>>>Subject:[FlyRotary] Re: EM2 Numbers=0A>>>>>>>=0A>= >>>>>>=C2=A0=0A>>>>>>>Bill,=C2=A0 =0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>=C2=A0=0A>>>>>>>With = the current setup, it appears to be around 6000-6100, but I'm still tuning = =0A>>>>>>>on the upper addresses of the EC-2. =C2=A0My old engine did best = around 6500-6600 =0A>>>>>>>running the same prop. =C2=A0So, I feel there is= something that isn't quite right on =0A>>>>>>>the new P-Port motor... mayb= e intake runners too short, intake or exhaust too =0A>>>>>>>restrictive, ti= ming off a bit, etc. =C2=A0It definitely makes more hp than the old =0A>>>>= >>>motor did in the 5000-6000 range, but I feel that it should be producing= more hp =0A>>>>>>>than I'm seeing in the 6000-7000 range. =C2=A0=0A>>>>>>>= =0A>>>>>>>=C2=A0=0A>>>>>>>So, things are still developing. =C2=A0Yesterday,= I reinstalled the old air-filter =0A>>>>>>>box which has a ram-air feature= incorporated into the design. =C2=A0I haven't flown =0A>>>>>>>it yet to se= e if there is any improvement, but I hope to see at least a little =0A>>>>>= >>improvement.=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>=C2=A0=0A>>>>>>>On a side note, I have de= termined that there is a 250 rpm discrepancy between =0A>>>>>>>the rpm read= out of the EM-2 and that of the M/T prop controller. =C2=A0I have an =0A>>>= >>>>optical tach that I will be using to determine which one is in error. = =C2=A0=C2=A0=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>=C2=A0=0A>>>>>>>Stay tuned (no pun intended= ),=0A>>>>>>>Mark=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>=C2=A0=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>=C2=A0=0A>>>>= >>>On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 8:30 PM, Bill Bradburry =0A>>>>>>>wrote:=0A>>>>>>>Mark,=0A>>>>>>>It would seem that if you flatt= ened the pitch of the prop, the engine rpms would =0A>>>>>>>increase, but a= t some point, you would begin to lose airspeed and start to slow =0A>>>>>>>= down because the prop was just not taking a big enough bite.=C2=A0 Converse= ly, it =0A>>>>>>>seems that if you increased the prop pitch, the engine rpm= s would decrease, but =0A>>>>>>>the airspeed would increase up to some poin= t and then after that, an increase in =0A>>>>>>>pitch would cause a decreas= e in airspeed because you are taking too big a bite =0A>>>>>>>and the engin= e just can not pull it.=C2=A0 Somewhere in there is a =E2=80=9CSweet Spot= =E2=80=9D of =0A>>>>>>>propeller rpm that gives the highest airspeed.=C2=A0= Lets say that this question =0A>>>>>>>assumes that you are at WOT and 8500= feet, which should give you roughly a 75% =0A>>>>>>>power output.=C2=A0 Do= you know where that sweet spot is with your propeller?=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>= =C2=A0=0A>>>>>>>Bill B=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>=C2=A0=0A>>>>>>>=0A______________= __________________=0A=0A>>>>>>>From:Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyro= tary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of =0A>>>>>>>Mark Steitle=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>= >>>>Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 10:00 PM=0A>>>>>>>To: Rotary motors in= aircraft=0A>>>>>>>Subject: [FlyRotary] EM2 Numbers=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>=C2= =A0=0A>>>>>>>Rotarians,=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>=C2=A0=0A>>>>>>>Things have been= a bit quiet on the list lately, so I thought I would post this =0A>>>>>>>p= icture of my EM-2 taken on a trip from Galveston, TX (KGLS) to Lockhart, TX= =0A>>>>>>>(50R) yesterday. =C2=A0I was level at 8500msl when taking the pi= cture. =C2=A0A/C is a =0A>>>>>>>Lancair ES (4-place), engine is a n/a p-por= ted 20b. =C2=A0=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>=C2=A0=0A>>>>>>>Please disregard the oil= temp as the reading on the EM-2 is measured after the =0A>>>>>>>first cool= er and before the second cooler. =C2=A0Oil temp readings out of the second = =0A>>>>>>>cooler (measured at the oil filter pad) track water temps within = a few degrees.=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>=C2=A0=0A>>>>>>>Leaned to "Economy Cruise= " and dial the prop down to 1800 rpm and the speed =0A>>>>>>>drops down abo= ut 15 mph and fuel burn drops to 9.1 gph. =C2=A0You pay dearly for that =0A= >>>>>>>15 mph but sometimes it is just too much fun to slow down.=0A>>>>>>>= =0A>>>>>>>=C2=A0=0A>>>>>>>Mark S.=0A>>>>>>>---------- Forwarded message ---= -------=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>From: Mark =0A>>>>>>>Date: T= hu, Oct 28, 2010 at 8:50 PM=0A>>>>>>>Subject: =0A>>>>>>>To: msteitle@gmail.= com=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>= =0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>Sent from my iPhone=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>=C2=A0=0A>>>>>>>= =0A>>>>>>>=C2=A0=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>=C2=A0=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>=C2=A0=0A>>>>= >>>=0A>>>>>>>=C2=A0=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>=C2=A0=0A>>>>>>>=0A_________________= _______________=0A=0A>>>>>>>The contents of this email are confidential and= intended only for the named =0A>>>>>>>recipients of this e-mail. If you ha= ve received this e-mail in error, you are =0A>>>>>>>hereby notified that an= y use, reproduction, disclosure or distribution or the =0A>>>>>>>informatio= n contained in this e-mail is prohibited. Please notify the sender =0A>>>>>= >>immediately and then delete/destroy the e-mail and any printed copies. Al= l =0A>>>>>>>liability for viruses is excluded to the fullest extent of the = law.=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>=0A>>>=0A>>=0A>=0A --0-690567903-1288710907=:78164 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=0A
Mark,
=0A
 Here are specs for the "DE= KA" IV injectors...............Standard high impedance (12 + ohms)=0A
 
=0A
=0A
  • Coil Resistance: 12.5 Ohms / High Impe= dance / High-Z (No ECM driver modifications required) =0A
  • Static Flow Ra= te @ 43.5PSI ( 300kPa ) w/Gas: 60 lb/hr =3D 630 cc/min =3D 453 g/min =0AStatic Flow Rate @ 87PSI ( 600kPa ) w/Gas: 85.7 lb/hr =3D 900 cc/min =3D 6= 48 g/min =0A
  • Gain: 0.11ms/mg =0A
  • Offset: 0.055ms =0A
  • Turn on time = @ 14VDC: 1.14ms =0A
  • Turn off time: 0.85ms @ 600KPa =0A
  • Connector: Bos= ch EV1 =0A
  • Series: DEKA 4 ( DEKA IV ) =0A
  • Orifice Type: Multi-orifice= =0A
  • Spray Pattern: 30 Degree Spray Cone

    •  
    =0A

    Kell= y Troyer
    "DYKE DELTA JD2" (= Eventually)

    =0A

    "13B ROTARY"_ Engine
    "RWS"_RD1C/EC2= /EM2
    "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

    =0A

    "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turb= o

    =0A

    =0A

    =0A
    =0A<= HR SIZE=3D1>=0AFrom: Mark S= teitle <msteitle@gmail.com>
    T= o: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>=
    Sent: Tue, November 2, = 2010 10:03:12 AM
    Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: EM2 Numbers

    Ed,  =0A

    =0A=
    I measure the manifold pressure at the unused oil injection ports in t= he rotor housings.  The EM-2 MAP reads in the upper 20's while at WOT,= so I don't think I have a problem with this.  The MCT was as received= , which was set up for Tracy's injectors.  I assume they were 460cc, b= ut that's just a guess.  I'm running 60# DEKA IV injectors.  Coul= d there possibly be an impedance mismatch between the two types?  =0A

    =0A
    Mark

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    On Tue,= Nov 2, 2010 at 9:09 AM, Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com> wrote:=
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    Hi Mark,
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    =  
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    Injectors are certainly large= enough - six  injectors at 60 lb/hr would give you a max flow rate ca= pacity of around 58 gallons/hour - far more than you are reporting fuel bur= n wise.
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    <= FONT face=3DArial>I guess what I am wondering is how your manifold pressure= is registering at WOT.  The PP as I recall can have a problem providi= ng reliable/consistent manifold pressure - no good source?  So exactly= how is your EC2/3 getting its manifold pressure signal ?   What = comes to mind is that if there is a problem getting a good consistent manif= old pressure reading at WOT - could that possibly result in your injectors = injecting less than you would expect.
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    In other words, if manifold= pressure was low relative to what you would expect at WOT (near ambient) t= hen turning up the manual mixture control would only provide adjustment aga= inst the smaller target pulse duration for that lower Manifold pressure rat= her than WOT manifold pressure.
    =0A
     
    =0A
    Ed
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    =0A
    Edward L. AndersonAnderson Electronic Enterprises LLC
    305 Reefton Road
    Weddington, NC= 28104
    http://www.andersonee.com
    http://www.eicommander.com
    =0A
     
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    =0A 
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    From:<= /B> stevei@carey.asn.au
    =0A
    Se= nt: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 8:24 AM
    =0A
    To: Rotary motors in aircraft <= /DIV>=0A
    Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: EM2 Numbers
    = =0A

    Hi Mark =0A

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    Are you in a position t= o confirm your fuel rail pressure?
    =0A
    Fuel injected =3D Pulse wid= th AND injector size AND fuel pressure.
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    Cheers
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    Steve Izett
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    =0A<= DIV>On 02/11/2010, at 4:42 AM, Mark Steitle wrote:

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    Tracy,
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    As I recall = the low end numbers are around -50ish.  So there is still room fo= r adjustment.  When running WOT, turning the mixture knob full CW does= n't get the mixture bar to show up on the EM-2 screen.  I find this od= d as I'm running 60# injectors.  I guess that's why the low end number= s are in the -50 range. 
    =0A
     
    =0A
    I'll post a= question on the Lancair list regarding the most efficient cruise spee= d for the Lancair ES airframe.
    =0A
     
    =0A
    Mark=0A


     
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    On Mon, Nov 1, = 2010 at 3:03 PM, Tracy <tracy@rotaryaviation.com> wrote:
    =0A"So, if it is going LOP in those addresse= s, which it is, it would explain why power drops off as I open the thr= ottle to WOT."

    That's new data to me.  Yes, that would cert= ainly cause a loss of power.    Are you able to compensate b= y turning up the mixture control?  Are the MAP table values at the low= end above minimum value?  The right thing to do depends on these answ= ers.   If answer is yes to the 2nd one, then you should bump up t= he value in Mode 3.

    The most efficient point on most airframes is th= e point where the induced drag curve crosses the parasitic drag curve. = ; On RV's that happens at around an indicated airspeed of 135 mph.  It= will probably be higher than that on a Lancair but I've never seen the cur= ves on that airplane.

    Tracy


    =0A
    = On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:
    =0A=0A
    Tracy wrote:<= /DIV>=0A
    Having said that, I think there is still a good possibility= that your drop in power above 6000 is not due to runner length. <= /DIV>=0A
     
    =0A
    Tracy,
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    I suspect it could be = tuning as I've hit the max adjustment (+127) on the EC-2 MCT for the a= ddresses in the upper 20" range, so it looks like I need to adjust the inje= ctor pulse width and then start over on the tuning.  So, if it is= going LOP in those addresses, which it is, it would explain why power= drops off as I open the throttle to WOT.  I'll do more tuning when I = get my updated EC-2 back.  (will go out in today's mail) 
    = =0A
     
    =0A
    Where does one find the "most efficient operati= ong point" for a particular airframe?  Is this the same as LDmax?=
    =0A
     
    =0A
    Mark

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    On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 1:28 PM, Tracy <tracy@rotaryaviation.com> wro= te:
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    "= The lowest fuel burn per HP generated always occurs at the torque peak as t= hat is where the engine takes in the most amount of air for each revolution= of the engine.  The VE is optimum.  In other words it is the mos= t efficient operating point for the engine." 

    Mark,<= BR> That is the point of minimum pumping losses in the engine, NOT the= most overall efficient point of operation.    It ignores th= e many other factors that affect BSFC.   If you look at Mazda's d= ata on BSFC, the best point is usually around 5000 rpm. 

    It al= so ignores the most efficient operating point of your airframe.  If yo= u tune the engine for a higher rpm torque peak you WILL make more HP, = you will fly faster but you will burn a lot more fuel.

    Having said = that, I think there is still a good possibility that your drop in power abo= ve 6000 is not due to runner length.

    Tracy



    =0A
    On Mon, No= v 1, 2010 at 11:54 AM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:
    =0A
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    Al,
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    &nb= sp;
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    Isn't the formula HP=3D (torque x rpm)/5252. 
    = =0A
     
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    I'm more focused on peak Volumetr= ic Efficiency (VE).  According to Fundamentals of Intake System Des= ign, (ACRE) "The lowest fuel burn per HP generated always occurs a= t the torque peak as that is where the engine takes in the most amount of a= ir for each revolution of the engine.  The VE is optimum.  In oth= er words it is the most efficient operating point for the engine."  =0A
     
    =0A
    =0A
    So, I will be good tunin= g for peak torque.  Do you have a dyno chart on your 20B that you= will share?  I find it interesting that your intake runners are only = 13". 
    =0A
     
    =0A
    Mark

    =0A=0A
    =0A
    =0A
    On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at = 11:10 AM, Al Gietzen <AL= Ventures@cox.net> wrote:
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    Keep in= mind that the graph is peak torque (T)); not peak HP.  The peak HP (w= hich is what you=E2=80=99re after would be at higher rpm.  HP =3D T x = RPM

    =0A
     
    =0A

    Al

    =0A=

     
    =0A-----Original Messag= e-----
    From: Rotary moto= rs in aircraft [mailto:= flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Be= half Of stevei@carey.asn.au
    Sent: Monday, November= 01, 2010 1:09 AM
    To: Ro= tary motors in aircraft
    Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: EM2 Numbers

    =0A

     
    =0A

    Hi Mark

    =0A
    =0A

     
    =0A
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    I have attached the Leman intake dimensions f= rom Paul L.

    =0A
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    Hope this is helpful. Can't remember whether this measure= ment was to the rotor face or manifold face.

    =0A=0A

     
    =0A<= DIV>=0A

    Steve Izett

    =0A
    =0A

    = Per= th Western Australia 

    =0A
    =0A

    <image001.gif>

    =0A
    =0A
    =0A

    = On 01/11/2010, at 8:40 AM, Mark Steitle wrote:

    =0A

    =0A<= DIV>=0A

    Bill, <= /P>

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    =0A

    &nbs= p;
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    = I u= nderstand the sausage illustration.  But if what you propose = ;were true, then why did Mazda make such a major effort to design and = implement the variable intake on their LeMans 26B p-port motor?  = That tells me that runner length does make a significant differen= ce on the p-port motor.  Also, if tuned runners didn't matter for peri= pheral ports, then why do they tune the exhaust runners on the 13B's? = Somewhere I have a chart showing the effect of runner length, but I'm not = sure that the data is from a p-port motor.

    =
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    = Mark

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    =0A

    On Sun, Oct 31, 2010 at 7:27 PM,= Bill Bradburry <bbradburry@= bellsouth.net> wrote:

    =0A
    =0A
    =0A

    M= ark,

    =0A

    = I don=E2=80=99t think that will work with th= e PP.  You never actually block the inlet.  You just cut off the = end of the flow of air as the apex flies by and it starts to fill the next = chamber.  Think of the flow as a long sausage that is going through a = propeller made of a strand of wire 2 or 3 MM thick and being cut into secti= ons.  It is never blocked.  I doubt that there are any reflection= s and if there are, they would be very small and of little benefit to enhan= ce.

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    I think = that is why the PP is so much stronger than the side port.=0A

    =0A
    Bill B

    =0A<= DIV>=0A
    <= /SPAN>
     
    =0A
    =0A
    =0A
    =0A
    =0A

    From:= Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mark Steitle
    Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 8:01 PM     =

    =0A
    =0A
    =0A


    To: Rotary = motors in aircraft
    Subject:<= /B> [FlyRotary] Re: EM2 Numbers

    =0A
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    <= SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
     
    = =0A
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    Sorry for the delayed reply, but I had to= go to the hangar and measure the runner length to be sure.  It is 24"= bellmouth to rotor face, 2" OD.  Exhaust is 2" OD also, running the s= tock 20b exhaust splitters.

    =0A
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    So, my power seems to = peak around 6000 rpm.  What length intake runner length would it take = to bring peak power up to around 6500 rpm? 

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    =0A

    Mark 

    =0A
    =0A=

    On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 3:53= PM, George Lendich <lendich@aanet.c= om.au> wrote:

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    =0A

       Mark,

    =0A
    =0A

        That's interesting; can you tell me what is your P= P size, runner length and exhaust header ID size.

    =0A
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    &= nbsp;   George (down under) 

    =0A=
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    Bill, 

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    <= /DIV>
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    With t= he current setup, it appears to be around 6000-6100, but I'm still tuning o= n the upper addresses of the EC-2.  My old engine did best around 6500= -6600 running the same prop.  So, I feel there is something that isn't= quite right on the new P-Port motor... maybe intake runners too short, int= ake or exhaust too restrictive, timing off a bit, etc.  It definitely = makes more hp than the old motor did in the 5000-6000 range, but I feel tha= t it should be producing more hp than I'm seeing in the 6000-7000 range. &n= bsp;

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    So, things are still developing.  Yesterda= y, I reinstalled the old air-filter box which has a ram-air feature incorpo= rated into the design.  I haven't flown it yet to see if there is any = improvement, but I hope to see at least a little improvement.=

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    On a side note, I have determined that there is a 250 rpm discr= epancy between the rpm readout of the EM-2 and that of the M/T prop control= ler.  I have an optical tach that I will be using to determine which o= ne is in error.   

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    Stay tuned (no pun int= ended),

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    =0A

    Mark

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    On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 8:30 PM, Bill Bradburry <bbradburry@bellsouth.net> wrote:

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    Mark,

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    It wou= ld seem that if you flattened the pitch of the prop, the engine rpms would = increase, but at some point, you would begin to lose airspeed and start to = slow down because the prop was just not taking a big enough bite.  Con= versely, it seems that if you increased the prop pitch, the engine rpms wou= ld decrease, but the airspeed would increase up to some point and then afte= r that, an increase in pitch would cause a decrease in airspeed because you= are taking too big a bite and the engine just can not pull it.  Somew= here in there is a =E2=80=9CSweet Spot=E2=80=9D of propeller rpm that gives= the highest airspeed.  Lets say that this question assumes that you a= re at WOT and 8500 feet, which should give you roughly a 75% power output.&= nbsp; Do you know where that sweet spot is with your propeller?

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    Bill B

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    From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mark Steitle

    =0A
    =0A

    =
    Sent: Thursday, October= 28, 2010 10:00 PM
    To: R= otary motors in aircraft
    Subject: [FlyRotary] EM2 Numbers

    =0A
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    Rotarians,

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    <= /DIV>
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    <= FONT size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman">
     

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    Please disregard the oil temp as the reading on the EM= -2 is measured after the first cooler and before the second cooler.  O= il temp readings out of the second cooler (measured at the oil filter pad) = track water temps within a few degrees.

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    =0A<= DIV>=0A

     
    <= /DIV>=0A
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    Leaned to "E= conomy Cruise" and dial the prop down to 1800 rpm and the speed drops down = about 15 mph and fuel burn drops to 9.1 gph.  You pay dearly for that = 15 mph but sometimes it is just too much fun to slow down.

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    =  
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    Mark S.

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    ---------- Forwarded message ----= ------

    =0A
    =0A


    From: Mark <<= A href=3D"mailto:msteitle@gmail.com" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank ymailto= =3D"mailto:msteitle@gmail.com">msteitle@gmail.com>
    Date: Thu, Oct= 28, 2010 at 8:50 PM
    Subject:
    To: ms= teitle@gmail.com








    Sent from my iPhone=

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    The contents of this email= are confidential and intended only for the named recipients of this e-mail= . If you have received this e-mail in error, you are hereby notified that a= ny use, reproduction, disclosure or distribution or the information contain= ed in this e-mail is prohibited. Please notify the sender immediately and t= hen delete/destroy the e-mail and any printed copies. All liability for vir= uses is excluded to the fullest extent of the law.

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