X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-ww0-f50.google.com ([74.125.82.50] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.10) with ESMTP id 4542459 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 26 Oct 2010 08:47:22 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=74.125.82.50; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by wwb24 with SMTP id 24so4368958wwb.7 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2010 05:46:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:sender:received :in-reply-to:references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=oecadmE9XYemn1uFD0rRCy+/iyaXzPAkJP3729pVtow=; b=LNPKXkY3LxZ8/gFQQVlvkL0DsHlJCb4FwQYCw6d5QpumPXsLMmFYSf/jIYe5PV2IgR ioXMYOyptaQmoZSa+xd1VMPaDukhNJ1dSSMZ7pmPCEp5FuSYgzx0lnlBkcLb9znT3RcS oVGL1htgADXzGmu31+XvI0MLYUiBQmPgxdncU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=U8fryYjYc3p1VmdBUdfuk82jgBawmN7Sjrt33XwQfIeYyKCQj6YIc4pB7D5O1LqYpi lU4Str4U4ekhJKF8T4vjH5QdsQxBEND1i/sEWt0uE09QY6Y4FCHzSVsptAGeOknvZcWL bxXSYOzD1yDv6MzX9gtQIq3SCj9LMYgE5kTHw= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.152.65 with SMTP id f1mr8037681wbw.47.1288097207786; Tue, 26 Oct 2010 05:46:47 -0700 (PDT) Sender: rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by 10.216.72.18 with HTTP; Tue, 26 Oct 2010 05:46:47 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 08:46:47 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: IlLYZlfdgs2vrPUO829DlVYq5a4 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Water Cooling and Oil Cooling Connection From: Tracy To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016364c6ddf819bae049384801b --0016364c6ddf819bae049384801b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jeff, Just my guess from the info you've given so far. Don't mess with your oil cooler setup. The problem is your water cooling. That's plenty of rad volume but either your diffuser sucks or your rad is too thick for your airspeeds. (I forgot what the plane was). I favor thic= k rads but you went too far with it. 5" is too much unless you cruise at 200= + mph. 3" would be a lot better, even less if this is a <150 mph plane. Tracy On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 10:40 PM, Jeff Whaley wrote: > Thanks to all for the info and follow-up questions. > My oil cooling system has 2 coolers 11x6x2.75 for a total of 360 cubic > inches mounted in the cheeks. The water radiator (22x5.5x5) is approx. 6= 00 > cubic inches mounted underneath the engine. The air inlets and outlets ar= e > separate. > What are the actual temperatures? - well this is dependent upon operating > conditions but regardless of conditions, my oil temperature is always abo= ut > 40 degrees cooler than water. > This in itself isn't a problem; the problem is that my water temperature > is reaching redline (225-230F) after a full throttle climb for approximat= ely > 1.5 minutes with OAT 80F, meanwhile oil is 180-185F. Cruise at OAT=3D80F = will > give > 190F water temp and oil about 150F. Conversely, a full throttle climb for > approximately 1.5 minutes on a day with OAT at 40F, my water temperature > stabilizes at 180F and oil sitting around 140F. Cruise at OAT=3D40F will > give 150F > water temp and oil about 110F. No thermostat and no cowl flaps so > temps are directly related to air temperature. > So Lynn, I don't have too much oil cooling but definitely not enough wate= r > cooling. What to do? > Can I risk sacrificing/trading some of my oil cooling in the hopes of > improving water temperatures and will the improved water temperature > situation limit the adverse affects on oil temperature? > Or should I leave my oil cooling system alone and concentrate on the wate= r > cooling loop separately? > Jeff > > From: Lehanover@aol.com Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Water Cooling > and Oil Cooling Connection Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 21:00:19 EDT To: > flyrotary@lancaironline.net [image: Message Header] > > [image: Undecoded Message] > In a message dated 10/25/2010 5:07:59 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > bhughes@qnsi.net writes: > > I have an unusual problem =96 my oil temperature is about 40F lower than = my > water temperature. I have 2 oil coolers and 1 water radiator. > > I=92m considering converting 1 oil cooler into a water radiator. Obvious= ly > my oil temperature is going to increase, but if the water temperature is > improved significantly will this also help in reducing the rise in oil > temperature. So far, my experiments have shown that reducing the oil > temperature has little effect on water temperature. > > Does anyone know if reducing their water temperature also reduces oil > temperature? =96 or are the two systems mostly independent? > > *Jeff Whaley* > > The ideals would be 160-180 water and 160 max oil temps. > > Water temps track power output slowly. Water (coolant) is taking heat out > of aluminum and can do this at a very high rate (aluminum radiator). So > water temps wander up and down slowly with power changes. > > The oil is a poor conductor of heat. Hard to heat and hard to cool. The > cast iron rotors are cooled by oil, badly foamed sprayed into the center > holes from the jets in the crank. So rotor temps are difficult to control= . > And rotor temps can limit HP if not well controlled. > > High rotor face temps limit cylinder filling and "in effect" reduce the > engines displacement. Part of rotor cooling is the intake charge absorbin= g a > lot of heat (Radiant energy) from the rotor face. When this is going on, = the > high charge temperatures decrease the charge volume ingested, increase bu= rn > rates, and moves you closer to a detonation event. > > Not usually a factor in NA engines or very low boost turbos. So long as n= o > other factors are in play, like a spark plug with too high a heat range, = a > burr on a ground electrode, best power mixture, (stay lean or rich of bes= t > power), ignition advanced too far. Or oil too hot, or carbon build up on = the > rotors forming a glow plug. > > Once you have the oil too hot, it will take a while to get the temps back > down. You must reduce fuel consumption. Hotter oil, more foam, worse > conductivity, longer cool down time. > > Also keep in mind that the over heated water or oil is making the coolers > more efficient, so the effect is not quite as obvious. Too hot is actuall= y > way to hot. > > In racing I told the driver to short shift when the oil was too hot. Like > 180-190. So instead of shifting at 9,600, shift at 9,300 for a lap and se= e > if it comes down a bit. This never worked out, because the driver never > blinks for 45 minutes and his drivers suit is wet from adrenaline running > out of his nose. So I installed a second dash board with a movie camera > pointed at it. Very informative. Missed shifts, wrong gear, not close to = the > rev limit, on the rev limiter, no regard for temps????????????? Like talk= ing > to the cat. > > Too low an oil temp is one curse I never had. With 3 Setrabs. > > The actual temps would be nice to see...... > > Lynn E. Hanover > > This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for the > addressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. Any > unauthorized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received this > message in error, please notify us immediately so that we may correct our > internal records. Please then delete the original message. Thank you. > --0016364c6ddf819bae049384801b Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jeff,
Just my guess from the info you've given so far.

Don= 't mess with your oil cooler setup.=A0 The problem is your water coolin= g.=A0 That's plenty of rad volume but either your diffuser sucks or you= r rad is too thick for your airspeeds.=A0 (I forgot what the plane was).=A0= I favor thick rads but you went too far with it.=A0 5" is too much un= less you cruise at 200+ mph.=A0=A0 3" would be a lot better, even less= if this is a <150 mph plane.

Tracy

On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 10:40 P= M, Jeff Whaley <jwhaley@datacast.com> wrote:
Thanks = to all for the info and follow-up questions.
My oil cooling system has= 2 coolers 11x6x2.75 for a total of 360 cubic inches mounted in the cheeks.= =A0 The water radiator (22x5.5x5) is approx. 600 cubic inches mounted under= neath the engine. The air inlets and outlets are separate.
What are the actual temperatures? - well this is dependent upon = operating conditions but regardless of conditions, my oil temperature is al= ways about 40 degrees cooler than water.
This in itself isn't = a problem; the problem is that = my water temperature is reaching redline=A0(225-230F) after a full throttle= climb for approximately 1.5 minutes with OAT 80F, meanwhile oil is 180-185= F. Cruise at OAT=3D80F will give
190= F water temp and oil about 150F. Conversely, a full throttle = climb for approximately 1.5 minutes on a day with OAT at 40F, my water temp= erature stabilizes at 180F and oil sitting around 140F. Cruise at OAT=3D40F will give 150F
water temp and oil about 110F.=A0=A0N<= /font>o thermostat and no cowl flaps so temps=A0are directly related to air= temperature.
So Lynn, I don't have= too much oil cooling but definitely not enough water cooling. What to do?
Can I risk sacrificing/tr= ading some of my oil cooling in the hopes of improving water temperatures a= nd will the improved water temperature situation limit the adverse affects on oil temperature?
Or should I leave my oil cooling system alone and concentr= ate on the water cooling loop separately?
Jeff
=A0
From: Lehanover@aol.co= m
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Water Cooling and Oil Cooling Connection
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 21:00:19 EDT
To: flyrot= ary@lancaironline.net
3D"Message

3D"Undecoded
In a message dated 10/25/2010 5:07:59 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, bhughes@qnsi.net writ= es:

I have an unusual problem =96 my oil temperature is = about 40F lower than my water temperature. I have 2 oil coolers and 1 water= radiator.

I=92m considering converting 1 oil cooler into a wat= er radiator.=A0 Obviously my oil temperature is going to increase, but if t= he water temperature is improved significantly will this also help in reduc= ing the rise in oil temperature.=A0 So far, my experiments have shown that reducing the oil temperature has little eff= ect on water temperature.

Does anyone know if reducing their water temperature= also reduces oil temperature? =96 or are the two systems mostly independen= t? =A0

Jeff Whaley

The ideals would be 160-180 water and 160 max oil temps.
=A0
Water temps track power output slowly. Water (coolant) is taking heat = out of aluminum and can do this at a very high rate (aluminum radiator). So= water=A0temps wander up and down slowly with power changes.
=A0
The oil is a poor conductor of heat. Hard to heat and hard to cool. Th= e cast iron rotors are cooled by oil, badly foamed sprayed into the center = holes from the jets in the crank. So rotor temps are difficult to control. = And rotor temps can limit HP if not well controlled.
=A0
High rotor face temps limit cylinder filling and "in effect"= reduce the engines displacement. Part of rotor cooling is the intake charg= e absorbing a lot of heat=A0(Radiant energy) from the rotor face. When this= is going on, the high charge temperatures decrease the charge volume ingested, increase burn rates, and moves you closer to a= detonation event.
=A0
Not usually a factor in NA engines or very low boost turbos. So long a= s no other factors are in play, like a spark plug with too high a heat rang= e, a burr on a ground electrode, best power mixture, (stay lean or rich of = best power), ignition advanced too far. Or oil too hot, or carbon build up on the rotors forming a glow plug.= =A0=A0
=A0
Once you have the oil too hot, it will take a while to get=A0the temps= =A0back down. You must reduce fuel consumption. Hotter oil, more foam, wors= e conductivity, longer cool down=A0time.
=A0
Also keep in mind that the over heated water or oil is making the cool= ers more efficient, so the effect is not quite as obvious. Too hot is actua= lly way to hot.
=A0
In racing I told the driver to short shift when the oil was too hot. L= ike 180-190. So instead of shifting at 9,600, shift at 9,300 for a lap and = see if it comes down a bit.=A0 This never worked out, because the driver ne= ver blinks for 45 minutes and his drivers suit is wet from adrenaline running out of his nose. So I installe= d a second dash board with a movie camera pointed at it. Very informative. = Missed shifts, wrong gear, not close to the rev limit, on the rev limiter, = no regard for temps????????????? Like talking to the cat.
=A0
Too low an oil temp is one curse I never had. With 3 Setrabs.
=A0
The actual temps would be nice to see......
=A0
Lynn E. Hanover

This message, and the docum= ents attached hereto, is intended only for the addressee and may contain pr= ivileged or confidential information. Any unauthorized disclosure is strict= ly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately so that we may correct our = internal records. Please then delete the original message. Thank you.

--0016364c6ddf819bae049384801b--