X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from bay0-omc2-s6.bay0.hotmail.com ([65.54.190.81] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.10) with ESMTP id 4542251 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 26 Oct 2010 04:57:39 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=65.54.190.81; envelope-from=stol83001@live.com Received: from BAY143-W19 ([65.54.190.125]) by bay0-omc2-s6.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Tue, 26 Oct 2010 01:57:03 -0700 Message-ID: Return-Path: stol83001@live.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_bb627f8d-7f21-41ab-b37a-a8ee88e827ad_" X-Originating-IP: [75.174.166.225] From: ben haas To: Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Water Cooling and Oil Cooling Connection Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 02:57:03 -0600 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Oct 2010 08:57:03.0351 (UTC) FILETIME=[C224A870:01CB74EB] --_bb627f8d-7f21-41ab-b37a-a8ee88e827ad_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hmm.=20 Water radiator is 22" X 5 1/2" X 5 " ?????? =20 Good luck getting that thick of a radiator to breath properly under 300 mph= ... IMHO. Ben Haas www.haaspowerair.com =20 To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net From: jwhaley@datacast.com Date: Mon=2C 25 Oct 2010 19:40:06 -0700 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Water Cooling and Oil Cooling Connection Thanks to all for the info and follow-up questions. My oil cooling system has 2 coolers 11x6x2.75 for a total of 360 cubic inch= es mounted in the cheeks. The water radiator (22x5.5x5) is approx. 600 cub= ic inches mounted underneath the engine. The air inlets and outlets are sep= arate. What are the actual temperatures? - well this is dependent upon operating c= onditions but regardless of conditions=2C my oil temperature is always abou= t 40 degrees cooler than water. This in itself isn't a problem=3B the problem is that my water temperature = is reaching redline (225-230F) after a full throttle climb for approximatel= y 1.5 minutes with OAT 80F=2C meanwhile oil is 180-185F. Cruise at OAT=3D80= F will give 190F water temp and oil about 150F. Conversely=2C a full throttle climb for= approximately 1.5 minutes on a day with OAT at 40F=2C my water temperature= stabilizes at 180F and oil sitting around 140F. Cruise at OAT=3D40F will g= ive 150F water temp and oil about 110F. No thermostat and no cowl flaps so temps ar= e directly related to air temperature. So Lynn=2C I don't have too much oil cooling but definitely not enough wate= r cooling. What to do? Can I risk sacrificing/trading some of my oil cooling in the hopes of impro= ving water temperatures and will the improved water temperature situation l= imit the adverse affects on oil temperature? Or should I leave my oil cooling system alone and concentrate on the water = cooling loop separately? Jeff =20 From: Lehanover@aol.com Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Water Cooling and Oil Cooling Connection Date: Mon=2C 25 Oct 2010 21:00:19 EDT To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net =20 In a message dated 10/25/2010 5:07:59 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time=2C bhughes= @qnsi.net writes: I have an unusual problem =96 my oil temperature is about 40F lower than my= water temperature. I have 2 oil coolers and 1 water radiator. I=92m considering converting 1 oil cooler into a water radiator. Obviously= my oil temperature is going to increase=2C but if the water temperature is= improved significantly will this also help in reducing the rise in oil tem= perature. So far=2C my experiments have shown that reducing the oil temper= ature has little effect on water temperature. Does anyone know if reducing their water temperature also reduces oil tempe= rature? =96 or are the two systems mostly independent? =20 Jeff Whaley The ideals would be 160-180 water and 160 max oil temps.=20 =20 Water temps track power output slowly. Water (coolant) is taking heat out o= f aluminum and can do this at a very high rate (aluminum radiator). So wate= r temps wander up and down slowly with power changes. =20 The oil is a poor conductor of heat. Hard to heat and hard to cool. The cas= t iron rotors are cooled by oil=2C badly foamed sprayed into the center hol= es from the jets in the crank. So rotor temps are difficult to control. And= rotor temps can limit HP if not well controlled.=20 =20 High rotor face temps limit cylinder filling and "in effect" reduce the eng= ines displacement. Part of rotor cooling is the intake charge absorbing a l= ot of heat (Radiant energy) from the rotor face. When this is going on=2C t= he high charge temperatures decrease the charge volume ingested=2C increase= burn rates=2C and moves you closer to a detonation event. =20 Not usually a factor in NA engines or very low boost turbos. So long as no = other factors are in play=2C like a spark plug with too high a heat range= =2C a burr on a ground electrode=2C best power mixture=2C (stay lean or ric= h of best power)=2C ignition advanced too far. Or oil too hot=2C or carbon = build up on the rotors forming a glow plug. =20 =20 Once you have the oil too hot=2C it will take a while to get the temps back= down. You must reduce fuel consumption. Hotter oil=2C more foam=2C worse c= onductivity=2C longer cool down time.=20 =20 Also keep in mind that the over heated water or oil is making the coolers m= ore efficient=2C so the effect is not quite as obvious. Too hot is actually= way to hot.=20 =20 In racing I told the driver to short shift when the oil was too hot. Like 1= 80-190. So instead of shifting at 9=2C600=2C shift at 9=2C300 for a lap and= see if it comes down a bit. This never worked out=2C because the driver n= ever blinks for 45 minutes and his drivers suit is wet from adrenaline runn= ing out of his nose. So I installed a second dash board with a movie camera= pointed at it. Very informative. Missed shifts=2C wrong gear=2C not close = to the rev limit=2C on the rev limiter=2C no regard for temps????????????? = Like talking to the cat. =20 Too low an oil temp is one curse I never had. With 3 Setrabs.=20 =20 The actual temps would be nice to see...... =20 Lynn E. Hanover This message=2C and the documents attached hereto=2C is intended only for t= he addressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. Any un= authorized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received this mes= sage in error=2C please notify us immediately so that we may correct our in= ternal records. Please then delete the original message. Thank you. = --_bb627f8d-7f21-41ab-b37a-a8ee88e827ad_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable  =3BHmm.
Water radiator is 22" X 5 1/2" X 5 " ??????
 =3B
Good luck getting that thick of a radiator to breath properly under 300 mph= ... =3B IMHO.

Ben Haas
w= ww.haaspowerair.com



 =3B
To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net
From: jwhaley@datacast.com
Date: Mon= =2C 25 Oct 2010 19:40:06 -0700
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Water Cooling an= d Oil Cooling Connection

Thanks to all f= or the info and follow-up questions.
My oil cooling system has 2 coo= lers 11x6x2.75 for a total of 360 cubic inches mounted in the cheeks. = =3B The water radiator (22x5.5x5) is approx. 600 cubic inches mounted under= neath the engine. The air inlets and outlets are separate.
What are the actual temperatures? - well this is dependent upon operating= conditions but regardless of conditions=2C my oil temperature is always ab= out 40 degrees cooler than water.
This in itself isn't a problem= =3B the problem is = that my water temperature is reaching redline =3B(225-230F) after a ful= l throttle climb for approximately 1.5 minutes with OAT 80F=2C meanwhile oi= l is 180-185F. Cruise at OAT=3D80F will give
190F water = temp and oil about 150F. Convers= ely=2C a full throttle climb for approximately 1.5 minutes on a day with OA= T at 40F=2C my water temperature stabilizes at 180F and oil sitting around = 140F. Cruise at OAT=3D40F will give 150F
water temp and oil about 110F. =3B =3BNo thermostat and no cowl flaps so temps =3Bare directly related to = air temperature.
So Lynn=2C I don't have too muc= h oil cooling but definitely not enough water cooling. What to do?
Can I risk sacrificing/trading = some of my oil cooling in the hopes of improving water temperatures and wil= l the improved water temperature situation limit the adverse affects= on oil temperature?
Or should I leave my oil cooling system alone and concentrat= e on the water cooling loop separately?
Jeff
 =3B
<= /TABLE>=
From: Lehanover@aol.com
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Water Cooling and Oil Cool= ing Connection
Date: Mon=2C 25 Oct 2010 21:00:19 EDT
To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net
3D"M=

3D"Undecoded
In a message dated 10/25/2010 5:07:59 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time=2C bh= ughes@qnsi.net writes:

I have an unusual problem =96 my oil temperature is= about 40F lower than my water temperature. I have 2 oil coolers and 1 wate= r radiator.

I=92m considering converting 1 oil cooler into a wa= ter radiator. =3B Obviously my oil temperature is going to increase=2C = but if the water temperature is improved significantly will this also help = in reducing the rise in oil temperature. =3B So far=2C my experiments h= ave shown that reducing the oil temperature has little effect on water temp= erature.

Does anyone know if reducing their water temperatur= e also reduces oil temperature? =96 or are the two systems mostly independe= nt?  =3B

Jeff Whaley

<= /BLOCKQUOTE>
The ideals would be 160-180 water and 160 max oil temps.
 =3B
Water temps track power output slowly. Water (coolant) is taking heat = out of aluminum and can do this at a very high rate (aluminum radiator). So= water =3Btemps wander up and down slowly with power changes.
 =3B
The oil is a poor conductor of heat. Hard to heat and hard to cool. Th= e cast iron rotors are cooled by oil=2C badly foamed sprayed into the cente= r holes from the jets in the crank. So rotor temps are difficult to control= . And rotor temps can limit HP if not well controlled.
 =3B
High rotor face temps limit cylinder filling and "in effect" reduce th= e engines displacement. Part of rotor cooling is the intake charge absorbin= g a lot of heat =3B(Radiant energy) from the rotor face. When this is g= oing on=2C the high charge temperatures decrease the charge volume ingested= =2C increase burn rates=2C and moves you closer to a detonation event.
 =3B
Not usually a factor in NA engines or very low boost turbos. So long a= s no other factors are in play=2C like a spark plug with too high a heat ra= nge=2C a burr on a ground electrode=2C best power mixture=2C (stay lean or = rich of best power)=2C ignition advanced too far. Or oil too hot=2C or carb= on build up on the rotors forming a glow plug. =3B =3B
 =3B
Once you have the oil too hot=2C it will take a while to get =3Bth= e temps =3Bback down. You must reduce fuel consumption. Hotter oil=2C m= ore foam=2C worse conductivity=2C longer cool down =3Btime.
 =3B
Also keep in mind that the over heated water or oil is making the cool= ers more efficient=2C so the effect is not quite as obvious. Too hot is act= ually way to hot.
 =3B
In racing I told the driver to short shift when the oil was too hot. L= ike 180-190. So instead of shifting at 9=2C600=2C shift at 9=2C300 for a la= p and see if it comes down a bit. =3B This never worked out=2C because = the driver never blinks for 45 minutes and his drivers suit is wet from adr= enaline running out of his nose. So I installed a second dash board with a = movie camera pointed at it. Very informative. Missed shifts=2C wrong gear= =2C not close to the rev limit=2C on the rev limiter=2C no regard for temps= ????????????? Like talking to the cat.
 =3B
Too low an oil temp is one curse I never had. With 3 Setrabs.
 =3B
The actual temps would be nice to see......
 =3B
Lynn E. Hanover

= This message=2C and the documents= attached hereto=2C is intended only for the addressee and may contain priv= ileged or confidential information. Any unauthorized disclosure is strictly= prohibited. If you have received this message in error=2C please notify us= immediately so that we may correct our internal records. Please then delet= e the original message. Thank you.
 = --_bb627f8d-7f21-41ab-b37a-a8ee88e827ad_--