X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from EXHUB003-3.exch003intermedia.net ([207.5.74.110] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.10) with ESMTPS id 4542002 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 25 Oct 2010 22:40:43 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=207.5.74.110; envelope-from=jwhaley@datacast.com Received: from EXVMBX003-5.exch003intermedia.net ([207.5.74.45]) by EXHUB003-3.exch003intermedia.net ([207.5.74.110]) with mapi; Mon, 25 Oct 2010 19:40:07 -0700 From: Jeff Whaley To: 'Rotary motors in aircraft' Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 19:40:06 -0700 Subject: RE: Water Cooling and Oil Cooling Connection Thread-Topic: Water Cooling and Oil Cooling Connection Thread-Index: AQHLdLcZ3q8j3ZTKN0SGJPLVcgfgfA== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C03ABB0A7362B84BB53D544B3C305E0E0179DEFDFD70EXVMBX0035e_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_C03ABB0A7362B84BB53D544B3C305E0E0179DEFDFD70EXVMBX0035e_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks to all for the info and follow-up questions. My oil cooling system has 2 coolers 11x6x2.75 for a total of 360 cubic inch= es mounted in the cheeks. The water radiator (22x5.5x5) is approx. 600 cub= ic inches mounted underneath the engine. The air inlets and outlets are sep= arate. What are the actual temperatures? - well this is dependent upon operating c= onditions but regardless of conditions, my oil temperature is always about = 40 degrees cooler than water. This in itself isn't a problem; the problem is that my water temperature is= reaching redline (225-230F) after a full throttle climb for approximately = 1.5 minutes with OAT 80F, meanwhile oil is 180-185F. Cruise at OAT=3D80F wi= ll give 190F water temp and oil about 150F. Conversely, a full throttle climb for a= pproximately 1.5 minutes on a day with OAT at 40F, my water temperature sta= bilizes at 180F and oil sitting around 140F. Cruise at OAT=3D40F will give = 150F water temp and oil about 110F. No thermostat and no cowl flaps so temps ar= e directly related to air temperature. So Lynn, I don't have too much oil cooling but definitely not enough water = cooling. What to do? Can I risk sacrificing/trading some of my oil cooling in the hopes of impro= ving water temperatures and will the improved water temperature situation l= imit the adverse affects on oil temperature? Or should I leave my oil cooling system alone and concentrate on the water = cooling loop separately? Jeff From: Lehanover@aol.com Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Water Cooling and Oil Cooling Connectio= n Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 21:00:19 EDT To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net [http://lancaironline.net:81/TextHeaders.gif] [http://lancaironline.net:81/TextLetter.gif] In a message dated 10/25/2010 5:07:59 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, bhughes@q= nsi.net writes: I have an unusual problem =96 my oil temperature is about 40F lower than my= water temperature. I have 2 oil coolers and 1 water radiator. I=92m considering converting 1 oil cooler into a water radiator. Obviously= my oil temperature is going to increase, but if the water temperature is i= mproved significantly will this also help in reducing the rise in oil tempe= rature. So far, my experiments have shown that reducing the oil temperatur= e has little effect on water temperature. Does anyone know if reducing their water temperature also reduces oil tempe= rature? =96 or are the two systems mostly independent? Jeff Whaley The ideals would be 160-180 water and 160 max oil temps. Water temps track power output slowly. Water (coolant) is taking heat out o= f aluminum and can do this at a very high rate (aluminum radiator). So wate= r temps wander up and down slowly with power changes. The oil is a poor conductor of heat. Hard to heat and hard to cool. The cas= t iron rotors are cooled by oil, badly foamed sprayed into the center holes= from the jets in the crank. So rotor temps are difficult to control. And r= otor temps can limit HP if not well controlled. High rotor face temps limit cylinder filling and "in effect" reduce the eng= ines displacement. Part of rotor cooling is the intake charge absorbing a l= ot of heat (Radiant energy) from the rotor face. When this is going on, the= high charge temperatures decrease the charge volume ingested, increase bur= n rates, and moves you closer to a detonation event. Not usually a factor in NA engines or very low boost turbos. So long as no = other factors are in play, like a spark plug with too high a heat range, a = burr on a ground electrode, best power mixture, (stay lean or rich of best = power), ignition advanced too far. Or oil too hot, or carbon build up on th= e rotors forming a glow plug. Once you have the oil too hot, it will take a while to get the temps back d= own. You must reduce fuel consumption. Hotter oil, more foam, worse conduct= ivity, longer cool down time. Also keep in mind that the over heated water or oil is making the coolers m= ore efficient, so the effect is not quite as obvious. Too hot is actually w= ay to hot. In racing I told the driver to short shift when the oil was too hot. Like 1= 80-190. So instead of shifting at 9,600, shift at 9,300 for a lap and see i= f it comes down a bit. This never worked out, because the driver never bli= nks for 45 minutes and his drivers suit is wet from adrenaline running out = of his nose. So I installed a second dash board with a movie camera pointed= at it. Very informative. Missed shifts, wrong gear, not close to the rev l= imit, on the rev limiter, no regard for temps????????????? Like talking to = the cat. Too low an oil temp is one curse I never had. With 3 Setrabs. The actual temps would be nice to see...... Lynn E. Hanover This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for the a= ddressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. Any unauth= orized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message= in error, please notify us immediately so that we may correct our internal= records. Please then delete the original message. Thank you. --_000_C03ABB0A7362B84BB53D544B3C305E0E0179DEFDFD70EXVMBX0035e_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks = to all for the info and follow-up questions.
My oil cooling system has= 2 coolers 11x6x2.75 for a total of 360 cubic inches mounted in the cheeks.=   The water radiator (22x5.5x5) is approx. 600 cubic inches mounted un= derneath the engine. The air inlets and outlets are separate.
What are the actual temperatures? - well this is dependent upon = operating conditions but regardless of conditions, my oil temperature is al= ways about 40 degrees cooler than water.
This in itself isn't a pr= oblem; the problem is that = my water temperature is reaching redline (225-230F) after a full throt= tle climb for approximately 1.5 minutes with OAT 80F, meanwhile oil is 180-= 185F. Cruise at OAT=3D80F will give
190= F water temp and oil about 150F. Conversely, a full throttle = climb for approximately 1.5 minutes on a day with OAT at 40F, my water temp= erature stabilizes at 180F and oil sitting around 140F. Cruise at OAT=3D40F will give 150F
water temp and oil about 110F.  No thermostat and no cowl flaps so temps are directly relat= ed to air temperature.
So Lynn, I don't have too= much oil cooling but definitely not enough water cooling. What to do?
Can I risk sacrificing/tr= ading some of my oil cooling in the hopes of improving water temperatures a= nd will the improved water temperature situation limit the adverse affects on oil temperature?
Or should I leave my oil cooling system alone and concentr= ate on the water cooling loop separately?
Jeff
 
From: Lehanover@aol.com
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Water Cooling and Oil Cooli= ng Connection
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 21:00:19 EDT
To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net
3D"Message

3D"Undecoded
In a message dated 10/25/2010 5:07:59 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, bhug= hes@qnsi.net writes:

I have an unusual problem =96 my oil temperature is = about 40F lower than my water temperature. I have 2 oil coolers and 1 water= radiator.

I=92m considering converting 1 oil cooler into a wat= er radiator.  Obviously my oil temperature is going to increase, but i= f the water temperature is improved significantly will this also help in re= ducing the rise in oil temperature.  So far, my experiments have shown that reducing the oil temperature has little eff= ect on water temperature.

Does anyone know if reducing their water temperature= also reduces oil temperature? =96 or are the two systems mostly independen= t?  

Jeff Whaley

The ideals would be 160-180 water and 160 max oil temps.
 
Water temps track power output slowly. Water (coolant) is taking heat = out of aluminum and can do this at a very high rate (aluminum radiator). So= water temps wander up and down slowly with power changes.
 
The oil is a poor conductor of heat. Hard to heat and hard to cool. Th= e cast iron rotors are cooled by oil, badly foamed sprayed into the center = holes from the jets in the crank. So rotor temps are difficult to control. = And rotor temps can limit HP if not well controlled.
 
High rotor face temps limit cylinder filling and "in effect"= reduce the engines displacement. Part of rotor cooling is the intake charg= e absorbing a lot of heat (Radiant energy) from the rotor face. When t= his is going on, the high charge temperatures decrease the charge volume ingested, increase burn rates, and moves you closer to a= detonation event.
 
Not usually a factor in NA engines or very low boost turbos. So long a= s no other factors are in play, like a spark plug with too high a heat rang= e, a burr on a ground electrode, best power mixture, (stay lean or rich of = best power), ignition advanced too far. Or oil too hot, or carbon build up on the rotors forming a glow plug.=   
 
Once you have the oil too hot, it will take a while to get the te= mps back down. You must reduce fuel consumption. Hotter oil, more foam= , worse conductivity, longer cool down time.
 
Also keep in mind that the over heated water or oil is making the cool= ers more efficient, so the effect is not quite as obvious. Too hot is actua= lly way to hot.
 
In racing I told the driver to short shift when the oil was too hot. L= ike 180-190. So instead of shifting at 9,600, shift at 9,300 for a lap and = see if it comes down a bit.  This never worked out, because the driver= never blinks for 45 minutes and his drivers suit is wet from adrenaline running out of his nose. So I installe= d a second dash board with a movie camera pointed at it. Very informative. = Missed shifts, wrong gear, not close to the rev limit, on the rev limiter, = no regard for temps????????????? Like talking to the cat.
 
Too low an oil temp is one curse I never had. With 3 Setrabs.
 
The actual temps would be nice to see......
 
Lynn E. Hanover

This message, and the docum= ents attached hereto, is intended only for the addressee and may contain pr= ivileged or confidential information. Any unauthorized disclosure is strict= ly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately so that we may correct our = internal records. Please then delete the original message. Thank you.
 --_000_C03ABB0A7362B84BB53D544B3C305E0E0179DEFDFD70EXVMBX0035e_--