X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.120] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.10) with ESMTP id 4530150 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 23 Oct 2010 12:42:53 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.120; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Return-Path: X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=Inhw+Jdt7z1D3BivGPfn2aw54OvUEJw5lAn/booRZkE= c=1 sm=0 a=EOONIC41DrUA:10 a=rPkcCx1H5rrOSfN0dPC7kw==:17 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=glYVDZ00AAAA:8 a=Yn0jmusqgveDyKE4QhwA:9 a=mdAdROo9nV67LbKD1X0A:7 a=7VwxNumwIuE7xLauIaqmI_GA4GYA:4 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=U8Ie8EnqySEA:10 a=XCwpvLtFMdsA:10 a=7bODu3K3mwmAbE0K:21 a=C4bq1HT-UYpEUezt:21 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=9wAiWHn_lSv7fPh_iRkA:9 a=JpEzNapwlZTLf9FHm7wA:7 a=fCuGwdunV51nOpBZwir2wfdwI5QA:4 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=rPkcCx1H5rrOSfN0dPC7kw==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 174.110.167.5 Received: from [174.110.167.5] ([174.110.167.5:53745] helo=EdPC) by cdptpa-oedge04.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id 9C/23-13137-96013CC4; Sat, 23 Oct 2010 16:42:17 +0000 Message-ID: <03248298C888488A92CDDD67EE5446B0@EdPC> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil pressure norms Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 12:41:37 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0011_01CB72AF.A1E9F9E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01CB72AF.A1E9F9E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My oil pressure during flight (6000 rpm) runs rock steady at 70 psi. I = use 50 wt multi viscosity Mobile 1 synthetic all year round. Ed From: Lehanover@aol.com=20 Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 12:31 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil pressure norms In a message dated 10/23/2010 10:49:07 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, = cbarber@texasattorney.net writes: As you may remember, a couple of weeks ago I lost most oil pressure. = I dropped the pan and found the problem. I safety wired the culprit up = and put my engine back together and back on the back of the Velocity and = cranked her up and got significant oil pressure as expected. I could = see it pumping freely out a hose I left open when I cranked the starter = with pumps/coils/injectors off earlier. Now, my question is, what is considered correct oil pressure at = different power settings? Before when I ran the engine at idle (on my = engine, usually 1500 - 1650 rpm, my oil pressure would be around 33-35 = psi. I remember this cuz, on my EM2 it is preset to start flashing an = alert if the oil pressure goes below 35 psi, so I was always bumping up = the idle a bit to keep it from flashing the alert. Now, however, it seems that at about the same RPM I am getting only = about 30 ish PSI at the same RPM and have to rev up to about 2200 rpm to = get the pressure to 35 or above. IIRC, when I apply power to about 6200 = rpm the pressure goes up to the mid 50's or a little more...maybe = hitting 60. I had thought I read somewhere that the EM2 was set to alert on oil at = 30, but Tracy has had my unit a couple/few times, so I am thinking the = 35 must be correct for low pressure. I am still sorting some final engine details out and this was noticed. = There are only 2 oil pressure relief pressures used in stock engines. 1971-1991 (All) is 71.1 PSI. 1993-1995 Twin turbo 110 PSI. The early relief valve can be disassembled and cleaned. Washers may be = added under the spring to increase oil pressure. 80-85 PSI cold would be = nice. Check relief pressure with shop air. Be sure the bleed holes are = fully exposed with the plunger fully compressed. This may be possible = with the later (welded) valve but I have never had one to play with. The = pumps are powdered metal, so I would not go much above 85 PSI for long = life. Unlike most engines, the rotary regulates oil pressure with a relief = valve in a leg near end of the system. So, the lowest pressure fed into = the oil filter stand and thus the filter is the relief pressure. Or, = 71.1 pounds. Measuring oil pressure from the stock locations gives you a = reading of how much pressure there is in the vertical gallery from the = Banjo fitting (a flow disaster) to the filter adaptor. So a pressure = drop through the tiny filter is not reported. Keep in mind you plan to = use the engine at nearly 3 times the RPM of the normal street engine. = With 40 or 50 weight conventional oil, or 30 or 40 weight synthetic you = should show the relief pressure right after start up at fast idle say = 1,500 RPM. This with standard day ambient. As oil warms and drainback = improves, oil pressure should be rock steady at about 71 pounds. As oil = temps go up, expect at least a 5 pound loss of pressure due to oil = foaming.=20 The recorded oil pressure is not what the bearings see. All of the = bearing flow is after the filter, so pressure drop in the filter element = and galleries reduces the reported number. The front rotor bearing = failures can be attributed in part to lower oil pressure. Thus in racing = both ends of the crank are oiled with an extra hose. The other problem is that the top oil gallery is also the top dowel = gallery, and the dowels have threads inside so a puller works. And then = 3 drilled 90s. A poor design for flow. This data and much much more is available for free download from Racing = Beat's web site. Also the Mazda Competition manual (old and poorly done) is available for = free download from the "Nopistons) web page. Multigrade conventional oils foam readily, and burn poorly. So, if you = must use the OMP, then a straight weight conventional oil, or better = yet, a conventional racing oil like 40 weight Valvoline. The racing oils = have more Zink antiscuff and more anti foaming agent. If you premix, or = have one of Richard Sohns gadgets to feed the OMP from a container on = the firewall, then you can use a synthetic racing oil in the sump, and = an ash free 2 cycle top oil. Got to work with a 20B this week. Oil pan and pickup a disaster. Lynn E. Hanover ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01CB72AF.A1E9F9E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
My oil pressure during flight (6000 rpm) runs rock = steady at=20 70 psi.  I use 50 wt multi viscosity Mobile 1 synthetic all year=20 round.
 
Ed

Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 12:31 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil pressure = norms

In a message dated 10/23/2010 10:49:07 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, = cbarber@texasattorney.net=20 writes:
As you may remember, a couple of weeks ago = I lost=20 most oil pressure.  I dropped the pan and found the = problem. =20 I safety wired the culprit=20 up and put my engine back together and back on the back of the=20 Velocity and cranked her up and got significant oil pressure as=20 expected.  I could see it pumping freely out a hose I left = open when=20 I cranked the starter with pumps/coils/injectors = off=20 earlier.
 
Now, my question is, what is considered correct oil pressure at = different=20 power settings?  Before when I ran the engine at idle (on my = engine,=20 usually 1500 - 1650 rpm, my oil pressure would be around 33-35 = psi.  I=20 remember this cuz,=20 on my EM2 it=20 is preset to start flashing an alert if the oil pressure goes below 35 = psi, so=20 I was always bumping up the idle a bit to keep it from flashing the=20 alert.
 
Now, however, it seems that at about the same RPM I am = getting only=20 about 30 ish=20 PSI at the same RPM and have to rev up to about 2200 rpm to get the = pressure=20 to 35 or above.  IIRC, when I apply power to about 6200 rpm the pressure = goes up=20 to the mid 50's or a little more...maybe hitting 60.
 
I had thought I read somewhere that the EM2 was set to alert on oil at = 30, but Tracy=20 has had my unit a couple/few times, so I am thinking the 35 must=20 be correct for low pressure.
 
I am still sorting some final engine details out and this was=20 noticed. 
 
 
There are only 2 oil pressure relief pressures used in stock = engines.
 
1971-1991 (All) is 71.1 PSI.
 
1993-1995 Twin turbo 110 PSI.
 
The early relief valve can be disassembled and cleaned. Washers may = be=20 added under the spring to increase oil pressure. 80-85 PSI cold would be = nice.=20 Check relief pressure with shop air. Be sure the bleed holes are fully = exposed=20 with the plunger fully compressed. This may be possible with the later = (welded)=20 valve but I have never had one to play with. The pumps are powdered = metal, so I=20 would not go much above 85 PSI for long life.
 
Unlike most engines, the rotary regulates oil pressure with a = relief valve=20 in a leg near end of the system. So, the lowest pressure fed into the = oil filter=20 stand and thus the filter is the relief pressure. Or, 71.1 pounds. = Measuring oil=20 pressure from the stock locations gives you a reading of how much = pressure there=20 is in the vertical gallery from the Banjo fitting (a flow disaster) to = the=20 filter adaptor. So a pressure drop through the tiny filter is not = reported. Keep=20 in mind you plan to use the engine at nearly 3 times the RPM of the = normal=20 street engine. With 40 or 50 weight conventional oil, or 30 or 40 weight = synthetic you should show the relief pressure right after start up at = fast idle=20 say 1,500 RPM. This with standard day ambient. As oil warms and = drainback=20 improves, oil pressure should be rock steady at about 71 pounds. As = oil=20 temps go up, expect at least a 5 pound loss of pressure due to oil = foaming.=20
 
The recorded oil pressure is not what the bearings see. All of the = bearing=20 flow is after the filter, so pressure drop in the filter element and = galleries=20 reduces the reported number. The front rotor bearing failures can be = attributed=20 in part to lower oil pressure. Thus in racing both ends of the crank are = oiled=20 with an extra hose.
 
The other problem is that the top oil gallery is also the top dowel = gallery, and the dowels have threads inside so a puller works. And then = 3=20 drilled 90s. A poor design for flow.
 
This data and much much more is available for free download from = Racing=20 Beat's web site.
 
Also the Mazda Competition manual (old and poorly done) is = available for=20 free download from the "Nopistons) web page.
 
Multigrade conventional oils foam readily, and burn poorly. So, if = you must=20 use the OMP, then a straight weight conventional oil, or better yet, a=20 conventional racing oil like 40 weight Valvoline. The racing oils = have more=20 Zink antiscuff and more anti foaming agent. If you premix, or have one = of=20 Richard Sohns gadgets to feed the OMP from a container on the firewall, = then you=20 can use a synthetic racing oil in the sump, and an ash free 2 cycle top=20 oil.
 
Got to work with a 20B this week. Oil pan and pickup a = disaster.
 
Lynn E. Hanover  
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