X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.122] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.9) with ESMTP id 4491580 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 03 Oct 2010 18:39:07 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.122; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Return-Path: X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=Kw91eHCEomHy3ia4iliyYwPDdG6gmL57yW58Q85fxVk= c=1 sm=0 a=-f-QWg2ctcAA:10 a=rPkcCx1H5rrOSfN0dPC7kw==:17 a=arxwEM4EAAAA:8 a=r1ClD_H3AAAA:8 a=WrMfpB0aAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=d5AaXLjalaWlhLyBK0gA:9 a=kz-XKeFgnSb0FMah_C4A:7 a=apIHij-PXeh7a626YBHWyEIOApsA:4 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=1Erk4P5SMDsA:10 a=glYVDZ00AAAA:8 a=4PR2P7QzAAAA:8 a=CA9whab6X-lYzMaUArkA:7 a=NBcCqr830euQjpnVg92J3xPvHcMA:4 a=XCwpvLtFMdsA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=djSSOgbfo6cA:10 a=rPkcCx1H5rrOSfN0dPC7kw==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 174.110.167.5 Received: from [174.110.167.5] ([174.110.167.5:51906] helo=EdPC) by cdptpa-oedge04.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.2.39 r()) with ESMTP id 9F/E9-28816-8E509AC4; Sun, 03 Oct 2010 22:38:33 +0000 Message-ID: <013ED863E63841FD8A563968B8E9650A@EdPC> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Smoking Gun -Loss of oil pressure Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 18:38:13 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0051_01CB632A.23069000" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0051_01CB632A.23069000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hard to say why, Chris - clearly you might think insufficient torque of = the nut/bolt when it was tightened. - but, (yes, another Ed Anderson story) the immediate cause of my 12 = mile engine out glide was having a fuel fitting (flop tube) nut come = unscrewed inside the fuel tank after 160 hours of flight. Now, I = presume I simply did not tighten it sufficiently - but, I can't help but = wonder why it held on for 160 hours before coming loose. Could other = factors like temperature variation somehow cause the clamping forces to = slowly lessen? Wish I knew, but loctie should help. From what I have heard is that due to the large surface area of the main = bearings that if lightly loaded even when oil pressure drops near zero - = the engine can continue to run (for a short period) without causing = damage. Now if under full throttle less time is available to catch it. = Hopefully that blinking alarm caught your attention shortly after = pressure fail below your alarm limit. =20 As others have already mentioned check the oil for metal shavings - I = like to pour the oil in a clear jar and let it set for a day or so - = normally the metal shavings (if any) will tend to settle to the bottom = of the jar. But, metal bearings babbit metal can become hot enough to = deform/melt without necessarily leaving a lot of metal in the oil. Also = a magnet will not attract babbit material - non-magnetic. If I were disinclined to tear down the engine, I think I would fix the = problem, button it back up and then fire up the engine watching the oil = pressure very, very closely - if the oil pressure is within 2 psi of = what it was before at the various rpm points, particularly the lower rpm = points like idle, taxi, etc, then you are probably OK. If it varies by = more than 5 psi up or down, I would tear the engine down. Just my = viewpoint Ed Edward L. Anderson Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC 305 Reefton Road Weddington, NC 28104 http://www.andersonee.com http://www.eicommander.com From: Chris Barber=20 Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2010 4:57 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Smoking Gun -Loss of oil pressure I hope I have some luck cuz obviously I am not as good as I would have = liked to think :-/ I have not heard of this occurring either but hopefully my "solution" = will help the problem.=20 Sent from my iPhone 4 On Oct 3, 2010, at 3:53 PM, "John Slade" = wrote: Chris, You must have been born lucky! It's just amazing that you've found of all the things before getting = airborne. I just hope you find the one remaining item :)=20 Regards, John On 10/3/2010 2:19 PM, Chris Barber wrote:=20 I removed the engine on Friday. Dropped the pan today, Sunday. The first = thing I saw was the spring from the pressure control valve dangling from = the bottom of the engine/engine mount. Then, as now expected, the = pressure control valve sitting in the pan.=20 Well, to quote Mythbuster's "There's your problem.". So, now to re-read = the install to see what I missed and perhaps add some Lock Tight.=20 -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_0051_01CB632A.23069000 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hard to say why, Chris - clearly you might = think=20 insufficient torque of the nut/bolt when it was tightened.
 
 - but, (yes, another Ed Anderson story) = the=20 immediate cause of my 12 mile engine out glide was having a fuel fitting = (flop=20 tube) nut come unscrewed inside the fuel tank after 160 hours of = flight. =20 Now, I presume I simply did not tighten it sufficiently - but, I can't = help but=20 wonder why it held on for 160 hours before coming loose.  Could = other=20 factors like temperature  variation somehow cause the clamping = forces to=20 slowly lessen?  Wish I knew, but loctie should help.
 
From what I have heard is that due to the large = surface=20 area of the main bearings that if lightly loaded even when oil pressure = drops=20 near zero - the engine can continue to run (for a short period) without = causing=20 damage.  Now if under full throttle less time is available to catch = it.  Hopefully that blinking alarm caught your attention shortly = after=20 pressure fail below your alarm limit. 
 
As others have already mentioned check the oil = for metal=20 shavings - I like to pour the oil in a clear jar and let it set for a = day or so=20 - normally the metal shavings (if any) will tend to settle to the bottom = of the=20 jar.  But, metal bearings babbit metal can become hot enough to = deform/melt=20 without necessarily leaving a lot of metal in the oil.  Also a = magnet will=20 not attract babbit material - non-magnetic.
 
If I were disinclined to tear down the engine, I = think I=20 would fix the problem, button it back up and then fire up the engine = watching=20 the oil pressure very, very closely - if the oil pressure is within 2 = psi of=20 what it was before at the various rpm points, particularly the lower rpm = points=20 like idle, taxi, etc,  then you are probably OK.  If it varies = by more=20 than 5 psi up or down, I would tear the engine down.  Just my=20 viewpoint
 
Ed
 
Edward L. Anderson
Anderson Electronic = Enterprises=20 LLC
305 Reefton Road
Weddington, NC 28104
http://www.andersonee.com
http://www.eicommander.com

Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2010 4:57 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Smoking Gun -Loss of oil=20 pressure

I hope I have some luck cuz obviously I am not as good as I would = have=20 liked to think :-/

I have not heard of this occurring either but hopefully my = "solution" will=20 help the problem. 

Sent from my iPhone 4

On Oct 3, 2010, at 3:53 PM, "John Slade" <jslade@canardaviation.com&g= t;=20 wrote:

Chris,
You must have been born lucky!
It's just amazing = that you've=20 found of all the things before getting airborne.

I just hope = you find=20 the one remaining item :)
Regards,
John


On 10/3/2010 = 2:19=20 PM, Chris Barber wrote:=20 
I removed the engine on Friday. Dropped the pan today, Sunday. =
The first thing I saw was the spring from the pressure control valve =
dangling from the bottom of the engine/engine mount. Then, as now =
expected, the pressure control valve sitting in the pan.=20

Well, to quote Mythbuster's "There's your problem.". So, now to re-read =
the install to see what I missed and perhaps add some Lock Tight.=20


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