X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from securemail.ever-tek.com ([64.129.170.194] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.9) with ESMTP id 4491472 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 03 Oct 2010 17:35:51 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.129.170.194; envelope-from=cbarber@texasattorney.net Received: from fcd-mail06.FCDATA.PRIVATE ([2002:404:40b::404:40b]) by FCD-MAIL06.FCDATA.PRIVATE ([::1]) with mapi; Sun, 3 Oct 2010 16:34:50 -0500 From: Chris Barber To: Rotary motors in aircraft CC: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Smoking Gun -Loss of oil pressure Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] Re: Smoking Gun -Loss of oil pressure Thread-Index: AQHLY0G2N0fA4xfjjkK5pEbBLb/b05Mvvzid Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 21:34:49 +0000 Message-ID: <10260B93-89CE-479D-8D6C-09F190CC82D0@texasattorney.net> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_10260B9389CE479D8D6C09F190CC82D0texasattorneynet_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_10260B9389CE479D8D6C09F190CC82D0texasattorneynet_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Lynne, Just checked the pan and opened up the filter and it looked ok. I fabricate= d a little bracket but may corner drill the control valve. Sent from my iPhone 4 On Oct 3, 2010, at 4:27 PM, "Lehanover@aol.com" <= Lehanover@aol.com> wrote: In a message dated 10/3/2010 2:21:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, cbarber@te= xasattorney.net writes: I removed the engine on Friday. Dropped the pan today, Sunday. The first th= ing I saw was the spring from the pressure control valve dangling from the = bottom of the engine/engine mount. Then, as now expected, the pressure cont= rol valve sitting in the pan. Well, to quote Mythbuster's "There's your problem.". So, now to re-read the= install to see what I missed and perhaps add some Lock Tight. There is plenty of room to corner drill the plate. Screw on the cap. Torque= it. Mark the cap where it needs to be drilled. Drill the cap. Drill the pl= ate. Safety wire it. What brand of sealant do you use? I'm buying some stock. Scribe the pan rail where that hole in the plate extends over the edge of t= he rail, to be sure the sealant bead closes off that location. Red Locktite is "Stud and bearing mount" Very strong bonding. Needs lots of= heat to kill it for part removal. In aluminum to aluminum you might get all of the threads left in one piece = or the other. I kept flywheels on Cosworth cranks with red Locktite. Harden= ed Locktite is like chunks of a diamond loose in the engine. The less you u= se internally the better. Quickly wipe away the excess where able. A single= 1/8" bead of sealant on the pan rail is plenty so long as it fully connect= s both surfaces. Run around the inside of the pan bolt holes of course. Let= it gell up for a few minutes before installing the pan. This for advanced = players, and maybe a bad idea for aircraft, but if you just let it gell up = real good, say for 15 minutes, and oil the opposing surface very lightly, b= efore installing the pan, it will seal fine. And, the pan will come off wit= h all of the silicone stuck to it and nothing on the engine. No mess. The b= est part was (for me), you can put it right back on the engine and it would= n't leak. Important when running a baffle plate between pan and engine. That very pickup screen is what made Mistral's engine oil foam so badly an= d then over heat. talked to Frances about that in the engine tent the first= time he came to Sun&Fun. They were afraid to leave the pattern with it, so= It was not seen at the show. They had very little excess capacity in the o= il coolers. Typical of engineers. They calculate the rejection they need an= d buy that exact cooler. They made up their own oil pump body so the rear rotor got its own supply o= f oil. The FD twin turbo engine has this same pump mod in stock form. They = took out the multigrade 50 Wt. airplane oil. Put in a straight weight car o= il. Its a car engine you know. No long polymer strings to help foam the oil. I bet the airplane oil came o= ut of the rotors like clumps of black snot. A real airplane with a rotary engine in the rotary line would have been a = big help for all concerned. The first rotary racer I built I used a Pontiac bug screen and made a trump= et shape for the end of the pickup. Mistral threw away the screen and put a= flat screen in the baffle plate about in the center of your mounting plate= . I don't know if they modify the pickup tube end. I see you have very little room to work in that awful looking pan. Too Bad. FYI, I lapped the flange on the pickup dead flat, and put it on with two ne= w screws torqued and safety wired. I used no gasket or sealant. That is because that cheap paper gasket would = worry to death and many of my gifted engines had a piece of that gasket mis= sing, letting in air, and foaming the oil. As you can see, a little silicone stuck to a "already too small" bug scre= en can get you into trouble quickly. Love the motor mount. Recheck the oil pan screw torque after a few hours. If there are no (or very few) sparklies in the pan or oil filter paper, you= are good to go. The filter will get a very few very small sparklies and so= me silicone sealant is normal and acceptable. Check the filter paper on eve= ry oil change. Lynn E. Hanover --_000_10260B9389CE479D8D6C09F190CC82D0texasattorneynet_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks Lynne,

Just = checked the pan and opened up the filter and it looked ok. I fabricated a l= ittle bracket but may corner drill the control valve. 

Sent fro= m my iPhone 4

On Oct 3, 2010, at 4:27 PM, "Lehanover@aol.com" <Lehanover@aol.com> wrote:

=
In a message dated 10/3/2010 2:21:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,=20 cbarber@texasattorney.net = writes:
I=20 removed the engine on Friday. Dropped the pan today, Sunday. The first th= ing I=20 saw was the spring from the pressure control valve dangling from the bott= om of=20 the engine/engine mount. Then, as now expected, the pressure control valv= e=20 sitting in the pan.

Well, to quote Mythbuster's "There's you= r=20 problem.". So, now to re-read the install to see what I missed and p= erhaps add=20 some Lock Tight.

 
 
There is plenty of room to corner drill the plate. Screw on the cap. T= orque=20 it. Mark the cap where it needs to be drilled. Drill the cap. Drill the pla= te.=20 Safety wire it.
 
What brand of sealant do you use? I'm buying some stock.
 
Scribe the pan rail where that hole in the plate extends over the edge= of=20 the rail, to be sure the sealant bead closes off that location.
 
Red Locktite is "Stud and bearing mount" Very strong bonding= . Needs lots of=20 heat to kill it for part removal.
 
In aluminum to aluminum you might get all of the threads left in one p= iece=20 or the other. I kept flywheels on Cosworth cranks with red Locktite. Harden= ed=20 Locktite is like chunks of a diamond loose in the engine. The less you use= =20 internally the better. Quickly wipe away the excess where able. A single 1/= 8"=20 bead of sealant on the pan rail is plenty so long as it fully connects both= =20 surfaces. Run around the inside of the pan bolt holes of course. Let it gel= l up=20 for a few minutes before installing the pan. This for advanced players, and= =20 maybe a bad idea for aircraft, but if you just let it gell up real good, sa= y for=20 15 minutes, and oil the opposing surface very lightly, before installing th= e=20 pan, it will seal fine. And, the pan will come off with all of the silicone= =20 stuck to it and nothing on the engine. No mess. The best part was (for me),= you=20 can put it right back on the engine and it wouldn't leak. Important when ru= nning=20 a baffle plate between pan and engine.
 
That very pickup screen is what made Mistral's  engine oil f= oam=20 so badly and then over heat. talked to Frances about that in the engine ten= t the=20 first time he came to Sun&Fun. They were afraid to leave the pattern wi= th=20 it, so It was not seen at the show. They had very little excess capacity in= the=20 oil coolers. Typical of engineers. They calculate the rejection they need a= nd=20 buy that exact cooler.
 
They made up their own oil pump body so the rear rotor got its own sup= ply=20 of oil. The FD twin turbo engine has this same pump mod in stock form. They= took=20 out the multigrade 50 Wt. airplane oil. Put in a straight weight car oil. I= ts a=20 car engine you know.
No long polymer strings to help foam the oil. I bet the airplane oil c= ame=20 out of the rotors like clumps of black snot.
 
 A real airplane with a rotary engine in the rotary line would ha= ve=20 been a big help for all concerned.
 
The first rotary racer I built I used a Pontiac bug screen and made a= =20 trumpet shape for the end of the pickup. Mistral threw away the screen and = put a=20 flat screen in the baffle plate about in the center of your mounting plate.= I=20 don't know if they modify the pickup tube end.
 
I see you have very little room to work in that awful looking pan. Too= =20 Bad.
 
FYI, I lapped the flange on the pickup dead flat, and put it on with t= wo=20 new screws torqued and safety wired.
I used no gasket or sealant. That is because that cheap paper gas= ket=20 would worry to death and many of my gifted engines had a piece of that gask= et=20 missing, letting in air, and foaming the oil.
 
 As you can see, a little silicone stuck to a "already too s= mall"=20  bug screen can get you into trouble quickly.
 
Love the motor mount.
 
Recheck the oil pan screw torque after a few hours.
 
If there are no (or very few) sparklies in the pan or oil filter paper= , you=20 are good to go. The filter will get a very few very small sparklies and som= e=20 silicone sealant is normal and acceptable. Check the filter paper on every = oil=20 change.
 
Lynn E. Hanover
 
   
= --_000_10260B9389CE479D8D6C09F190CC82D0texasattorneynet_--