X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com ([69.147.92.117] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.8) with SMTP id 4444972 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 26 Aug 2010 16:05:07 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=69.147.92.117; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: (qmail 43873 invoked by uid 60001); 26 Aug 2010 20:04:33 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1282853072; bh=Coq3mRstyiGOjXPSp7ceIUd0J8jFvnLKLE6rTeezcg4=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=d/JSRItKeJkhiunOFeda0mUUJ22oyccT/CU8Ho5rDPqbQ5Y2dNbVs3mqbQHs1p3MGdArLkdztSDJCHsnjGlQMSyrCqZW1vNe5yzE0i0j5S1mGWEHvaPMoQHoBU80A+dErZn3baEuwNC7jxiNaKFP9laeGG2nEDo80C+uykAFuyA= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=att.net; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=lHiwxsOJ8ZtyEsfLWjer/UfZw4ntwgefOvyYPLXGLVUvJRvf9BTuoy/qmCPmmf/apc+G2HAg4W+MzqsxlAHmNoSkyMr2vvzcYB7MuMQLTAtcCRfdsV29o9ROOJqTbyf2a6gJiUuawIM/3AC3IZp76pY9Sj3/tM6R5jO0Jsf7oKc=; Message-ID: <929713.43137.qm@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: Xn6i4gQVM1nVeq78j_5VOMgW9XwIbPiRue66yuk5xrzjbmo BJrXgG3N_C_WnUbjGZI_PjNoQ4mbFe6g1ZzQvF9ypwUAxa6O235Mir5CWWbf luiGdXTV6Ddiuz41kp0Um8O2QQir0jMBU0yYujUjMuJjsliTM8HWKPQ85Old 4yEuVNFSDtMBrYatBZtRRoG_Hxx5hVgzmsAGntZj1mWh_90oOvniTacf9QHn hGGEQnF33s6807d_UTQw7z3GBtjKdXw6O9xSv15zGSgDwcxycZIcyuecX3cl wwluFzhLUnFsnp6QVMP2X0OVjV6T.TfL0AdDcos1iD2dFILz.rFulxOCUH_k rEKRIIIP4bvvbx5S4DLe52g9cY8gUq9miUUtLBNqq Received: from [208.114.37.220] by web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 26 Aug 2010 13:04:32 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/470 YahooMailWebService/0.8.105.279950 References: Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 13:04:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Kelly Troyer Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-720048712-1282853072=:43137" --0-720048712-1282853072=:43137 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Scott,=0A=C2=A0 Speaking of pictures how about a few of your installation != !................=0A=C2=A0Kelly Troyer=0A"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=0A"= RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_______= _________________________=0AFrom: "shipchief@aol.com" = =0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft =0ASent: Thu,= August 26, 2010 12:29:38 AM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions=0A= =0AThanks Dave and all!=0AI think I'm on the right track. After I redesigne= d the cooling system, and added =0Aan oil restrictor to the turbo, things h= ave been much better. The EC-2 responds =0Aaccording to Tracy's manual, esp= ecially after I cleared the oil out of the =0Amanifold pressure sense lines= . =0A=0AI still don't have a duct in the left cowl cheek. This is going to = take some =0Athinking, because it needs to supply engine combustion air, su= rface cooling air =0Afor the engine compartment, and a=C2=A0cool air blast = tube for the=C2=A0injectors, which =0Aare fairly close to the exhaust.=0AI = like the idea of upgrading to a stainless steel radiant heat shield for the= =0Aexhaust header, which might glow a bright yellow under full climb power= .=0AKelly; thanks for the pic of the turbo housing, it looks just like mine= ! I'm =0Asure it would be a quick n' easy job to switch it out if it comes = to that.=0AI know pictures of my 'engine room' look a mess, but it's actual= ly fairly =0Amodular. Peeling off the layers isn't to time consuming.=0ATod= ay was a milestone for me....the wings were moved from the building room in= =0Athe house, and set next to the fuselage in the garage!=0AYAWN, you say?= I know it's not "Rotary" but it's a big deal for me. =0AScott=0A=0A-----Or= iginal Message-----=0AFrom: David Leonard =0ATo: Rotar= y motors in aircraft =0ASent: Wed, Aug 25, 201= 0 9:37 pm=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions=0A=0A=0AI don't partic= ularly worry about temps after shut down.=C2=A0 The reflective coating =0Ao= n the inside of the cowl in the hot areas is all that seems to be needed. I= use =0Aregular aluminum foil attached with spray adhesive.=C2=A0 I try to = park into the wind =0Aif possible, but don't really worry about it.=C2=A0 T= he cowl does get quite hot to =0Athe touch, but seems to be able to handle = the heat.=C2=A0 Your results may vary =0Adepending on installation and heat= load (mass of exhaust metal).=0A=0A=0ARadiant heat during flight is a diff= erent matter and needs to be thought of =0Aseparately.=C2=A0 this is the sh= ielding of the components (like mount) that get close =0Ato exhaust system.= =C2=A0 aluminum works well as long as it is more than 1/4 inch or =0Aso awa= y but be aware that if the exhaust should spring a leak, the aluminum will = =0Amelt pronto while SS will hold up.=C2=A0 =0A=0A=0AOne of the nice things= for me, using the stock housing and manifold, is that I =0Acan use the sto= ck heat shields that hold up well, fit perfect, and are dirt =0Acheap.=C2= =A0 =0A=0A=0AI used to wrap my exhaust pipe with the extra tough 2000 deg w= rap but it would =0Aonly last 100 hrs or so.=C2=A0 the other stuff not as w= ell.=C2=A0 didn't seem to make much =0Adifference so i stopped using it.=C2= =A0 Most of that wraping/fiber/weave/cloth stuff =0Ais junk.=C2=A0 Be caref= ul if you use it for anything important.. may even be a fire =0Arisk.=0A=0A= nowadays,besides the stock heat shielding, I put aluminum or SS heat shield= s =0Aover the things that need to be protected and leave the hot stuff alon= e.=0A=0AHope that helps=0A=0ADave Leonard=0A=0A=0AOn Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 1= 0:25 PM, wrote:=0A=0AANOTHER TURBO QUESTION:=0A>What ab= out turbo insulation. Dave Leonard, you mentioned it before, and I =0A>list= ened. Now I'm ground running (3 hours!!) and under cowl temps after shutdow= n =0A>seem high. I have the Van's foil sheeting on the inside of the cowl a= nywhere =0A>near the turbo, a sewn insulation cover for the turbo that Dave= said would be =0A>insufficient, and some kevlar-like welder's drop cloth i= n a single wrap around =0A>the turbo down pipe. The turbo header is bare wi= th an aluminum heat shield to =0A>keep direct radiant heat off the motor mo= unt and lower intake manifold. I'm =0A>afraid to insulate the header,as=C2= =A0rotary exhaust temps are challenging to 321 =0A>stainless steel. =0A>=0A= >Right now, I open the oil door to let heat out after ground runs, and befo= re =0A>addition of the foil, I used to run the shop vac discharge hose in t= he cowl to =0A>move some air too. I need a solution that would allow flying= to another =0A>destination, not just back to my hanger where a fan can coo= l the under-cowl area =0A>so the fiberglass doesn't melt.=0A>Any practical = advise?=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>-----Original Message-----=0A>From: Kelly Troyer =0A>To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>=0A>Sent: Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:10 am=0A>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo = Questions=0A>=0A>=0A>=C2=A0 The only possible downside I can see is=C2=A0tu= rbine over-speed at =0A>altitude.........Part of this equation=0A>is based = on what rpm your=C2=A0engine will be turning at takeoff and cruise, the =0A= >altitudes you fly=C2=A0and =0A>=0A>the psru ratio you have (2.17 or 2.85) = with the 2.85 probably averaging 600 to =0A>1000 rpm higher=C2=A0=0A>for bo= th takeoff and cruise (fuel flow concerns may also=C2=A0be a personal =0A>f= actor)..........Also your prop=0A>is a factor depending if it is fixed pitc= h or constant speed (or in-flight =0A>adjust such as my "IVO").......=0A>= =C2=A0=0A>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0With an adjustable pitch prop you can load the = engine at a lower rpm and =0A>control=C2=A0turbo boost=0A>with the throttle= while being careful to avoid detonation.........The bottom =0A>line is onl= y flight testing =0A>=0A>can determine exactly how your turbo will perform = in your particular =0A>installation..............Should =0A>=0A>your .81 a/= r ratio turbine housing be a little too tight a .96 a/r ratio "On =0A>Cente= r" housing=C2=A0to fit your =0A>=0A>"P" trim (F1-65mm) turbine wheel is rea= dily available for less than $300.00 and =0A>the=C2=A0.96 housing is=0A>=C2= =A0working well for=C2=A0John Slade and his "IVO"=C2=A0equipped "Cosy"=C2= =A0............=C2=A0=0A>=0A>=C2=A0 Let the group know how all is working o= nce you get her in the air =0A>!!.............FWIW=0A>Kelly Troyer=0A>"Dyke= Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=0A>"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A>"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil = Manifold =0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A________________________________=0AFrom: "s= hipchief@aol.com" =0A>To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>Sent: Wed, August 18, 2010 6:46:46 PM=0A>Subje= ct: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions=0A>=0A>Correction!!!=0A>I just checked = my aircraft manual, and the Turbo has a .81 AR. That's pretty =0A>tight for= this group discussion. I guess we will see what happens as I run my =0A>en= gine at higher power.=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>-----Original Message-----=0A>From= : shipchief@aol.com=0A>To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 3:49 pm=0A>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turb= o Questions=0A>=0A>=0A>George Kelly and all;=0A>I've been off the list for = a while (work) but today I safety wired the water =0A>pump pulley bolts, as= discussed in=C2=A0 'one thing leads to another'.=0A>Then I ran my engine f= or 40 minutes @ 1900 RPM. The low voltage that alerted me =0A>to the pully = bolts was still with me, so I ran the engine with the upper cowl =0A>off, a= nd climbed out of the cockpit to have a look. =0A>=0A>I always sat in the p= lane while running it before, so this was pretty =0A>informative. I ran it = for a while, more than 20 minutes watching the battery =0A>voltage slowly= =C2=A0drop to 11.9 volts, still the engine ran sweet. I checked =0A>alterna= tor output; it was just battery voltage, so nothing. I hooked up a =0A>batt= ery charger and kept running so I could watch the belt, feel the intake =0A= >manifold and turbo etc. and look for problem areas. I'm feeling good about= my =0A>installation becuase it looks fairly neat and runs smooth and sweet= . I'm =0A>beginning to feel that this is going to be a success story. wink,= wink, Tracy. I =0A>just need to finish the airplane ;)=0A>About the Turbo:= =0A>I'm running a 60-1 P trim compressor=C2=A0and .97 AR On-Center TO-4 tur= bine=C2=A0housing=C2=A0( =0A>if I recall correctly) with a water cooled bea= ring. I built the exhaust manifold =0A>simply because the Fred Brease mount= I bought would=C2=A0not accomodate the cast=C2=A0iron =0A>Mazda Turbo mani= fold. =C2=A0I selected the On-Center turbine because I wanted the =0A>desig= n flexibility it offered, and in fact I was able to mount the turbo with = =0A>the exhaust oulet facing aft. The down pipe is very short, the intake f= ilter is =0A>directly on the turbo compressor, and to finally get to my poi= nt, my turbo is =0A>direct mounted to the engine with a very short but some= what large volume 321 =0A>stainless manifold. =0A>=0A>I decided to give up = all the waste gates, blow off valves, remote mounts, flex =0A>joints, etc. = and followed Kelly Johnson's addage: "Add Lightness and =0A>Simplicate".=0A= >I installed the battery in the back of my RV-8 because RV-8's with Lycomin= g =0A>IO-360=C2=A0& constant speed props need to do this for CG reasons. I = couldn't imagine =0A>my 13BT being lighter. Still,=C2=A0lightness is requir= ed, so I work at it.=C2=A0All =0A>those=C2=A0accoutraments have there place= , and maybe I will end up needing some or =0A>all of them, but I decided to= start with none of them and go forth. I'll add =0A>what ever I end up need= ing.=0A>My turbo air pipe is somewhat long, but it does pass by the left si= de of the =0A>cowl where I could mount an intercooler with air exit, so I h= ave that as a =0A>possibility. If I need a waste gate, I'll just cut a hole= in the exhaust =0A>manifold and TIG weld in a bypass pipe with or without = some kind of valve....I =0A>have a spot in mind for that too.=0A>I may be o= ver thinking this whole thing, and that is part of why I build so =0A>slowl= y.=0A>But I do=C2=A0have 2.5 hours on the EM-2 hobbs meter!! =0A>=0A>=0A>= =0A>=0A>-----Original Message-----=0A>From: George Lendich =0A>To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>Se= nt: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 2:03 pm=0A>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions= =0A>=0A>=0A>=C2=A0Kelly,=0A>Let us all know how well it goes for you in the= real world application. I can't =0A>help but feel we are trying to fit a s= quare peg in a round hole with Turbo =0A>application to Aviation needs.=0A>= =C2=A0=0A>Personally for myself, as I have stated before, I feel that I wou= ld use remote =0A>mounted turbo, like some cars=C2=A0use (to reduce the hea= t and flow speed to the =0A>turbo) and feed it from a bypass off the exhaus= t pipe. The by-pass could be =0A>controlled manually, for (when required) a= pplication.=C2=A0A wastegate does the same =0A>thing but the exhaust is tak= en right up to the turbo and carries the heat with =0A>it. I think this wou= ld go a long way in controlling heat and over spinning =0A>issues.=0A>=C2= =A0=0A>However you need the necessary room to make this possible.=0A>George= (down under)=0A>Bob, John and All,=0A>>=0A>>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= Well I have bit the bullet and made my decision for a =0A>>turbo...........= .After much research, talking to Bob =0A>>=0A>>and John and conferring with= a=C2=A0"Turbonetics" dealer I have ordered a TO4E-50 =0A>>trim (compressor= wheel), =0A>>=0A>>wet bearing housing, big shaft "Q" trim (F1-68mm) turbin= e wheel and=C2=A01.15 a/r =0A>>ratio turbine housing.........=0A>>=0A>>=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The decision=C2=A0what size turbine wheel and a/r rat= io housing was based on the =0A>>fact that the=C2=A0f1-68mm=0A>>turbine and= 1.15 a/r housing causes less exhaust back pressure than the smaller =0A>>w= heel (bigger hole) and=0A>>will increase rpm less=C2=A0as you increase alti= tude as opposed to the F1-65mm wheel =0A>>plus the 1.15 a/r ratio=0A>>housi= ng will=C2=A0slow rpm increase for the same reason............=0A>>=0A>>=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The decision to go with the 50 trim compressor wheel (Like = John)=C2=A0verses the =0A>>60-1=C2=A0wheel (Like Bob)=C2=A0was =0A>>=0A>>ba= sed=C2=A0the "Flow Maps" of both wheels=C2=A0and my=C2=A0uneducated opinion= that the 50 trim =0A>>wheel would be running =0A>>=0A>>in a more efficient= area of the flow map base on the "Air Consumption Chart" =0A>>(lbs per min= ) of the 1.3L 13B =0A>>=0A>>that I submitted to the group in a previous pos= t.............Of course for all =0A>>practical purposes there is probably= =0A>>little=C2=A0discernible difference between any of these turbo configur= ations =0A>>mentioned.............=0A>>=0A>>=C2=A0=C2=A0 At least I have li= vened up the forum for a while =0A>>!!............FWIW..................<:)= =0A>>Kelly Troyer=0A>>"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=0A>>"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2= =0A>>"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold =0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A_________= _______________________=0AFrom: "Rogers, Bob J." =0A>>To:= Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>>Sent: Tue, Aug= ust 17, 2010 5:20:49 PM=0A>>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions=0A>>= =0A>>=0A>>Yes, I used the Jet-Hot 2000 coating, shown at this link. =0A>>ht= tp://www.jet-hot.com/headercoatings.html=C2=A0 I think that it is very effe= ctive to =0A>>reduce heat in the engine compartment.=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>It is o= nly applied at the Oklahoma City facility.=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>Bob=0A>>=0A______= __________________________=0A=0A>>From:Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:fl= yrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of =0A>>Kelly Troyer=0A>>Sent: Tuesday= , August 17, 2010 3:02 PM=0A>>To: Rotary motors in aircraft=0A>>Subject: [F= lyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>Bob,=0A>>=C2=A0 Did you have y= our turbine housing=C2=A0and exhaust pipe coated with heat =0Aresistant=0A>= >coating and if so what and where ??.............=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>Thanks,=0A= >>=C2=A0=0A>>Kelly Troyer=0A>>"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=0A>>"RWS"_RD1C= /EC2/EM2=0A>>"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold =0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>= =0A________________________________=0A=0A>>From:" Rogers, Bob J. " =0A>>To: Rotary motors in aircraft = =0A>>Sent: Mon, August 16, 2010 10:57:22 AM=0A>>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Tu= rbo Questions=0A>>Kelly,=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>There is one pretty good picture of= the turbo installation (before radiator =0A>>baffling) on our EAA Chapter = 1246 website at:=C2=A0 =0A>>http://www.eaa1246.org/projectsnplanesdisplay.a= sp?id=3D10&pic=3D190.=C2=A0; Because the =0A>>oil drains from the turbo int= o a sump that is lower than the oil pan, I must use =0A>>an electric pump t= o transfer the oil back into the engine oil pan.=C2=A0 Attached is =0A>>a v= iew from the front, which shows the hoses and tubing from the turbo =0A>>co= mpressor to the intercooler and back to the intake manifold.=C2=A0 =0A>>=0A= >>=C2=A0=0A>>Bob=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>=0A________________________________=0A=0A>>= From:Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beha= lf Of =0A>>Kelly Troyer=0A>>Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 10:02 AM=0A>>To: = Rotary motors in aircraft=0A>>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions=0A>>= =C2=A0=0A>>Bob,=0A>>=C2=A0=C2=A0 I am waiting on a clarification=C2=A0 from= "Turbonetics" as to what size turbine =0A>>wheel=0A>>would=C2=A0turn the l= east rpm as altitude increases.............I know the =C2=A0turbine =0A>>ho= using=0A>>a/r ratio is a big factor effecting turbine rpm as=C2=A0we climb = but it is not clear =0A>>to me=0A>>how=C2=A0the turbine wheel diameter and = trim factor in.............Air density =0A>>lessens with=0A>>altitude but= =C2=A0I am not smart enough to know=C2=A0if the larger or smaller turbine = =0A>>wheel=0A>>will have the highest rpm because of this factor=C2=A0as we = climb ??.........=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>=C2=A0 Perhaps I am being anal about this = but and you are probably correct that that =0A>>the =0A>>=0A>>effect of=C2= =A0a 3mm diameter=C2=A0difference between the two turbine wheels is slight = and =0A>>=0A>>probably inconsequential...........If any of our multi-talent= ed group members =0A>>would =0A>>=0A>>like to shine some light on this plea= se jump in here !!..........=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>=C2=A0 On another note do you h= appen to have any photos of your 13B/turbo =0A>>installation=0A>>during con= struction that you would care to share with the group ??..........You =0A>>= have=0A>>a beautiful (to Rotorheads) and well thought out installation whic= h from your =0A>>report=0A>>is working very well and=C2=A0I am sure others = of the group would like to =0A>>plagiarize.....<:)=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>Best Rega= rds,=C2=A0=0A>>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=0A>>Kelly Troyer=0A>>"Dyke Delta"_13B ROT= ARY Engine=0A>>"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A>>"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A>>= =C2=A0=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>=0A________________________________=0A=0A>>From:" Rog= ers, Bob J. " =0A>>To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>>Sent: Fri, August 13, 2010 11:49:06 AM=0A>>Subjec= t: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions=0A>>Kelly, =0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>I do not know= which wheel is in my turbo.=C2=A0 I expect the larger wheel (68 mm) to =0A= >>turn a little more slowly, since it has a larger surface area to absorb t= he =0A>>exhaust, but it should not make much difference.=C2=A0 Either one s= hould be OK.=C2=A0 The =0A>>Turbonetics people can probably explain the per= formance differences between the =0A>>two wheel sizes.=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>Bob= =0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>=0A________________________________=0A=0A>>From:Rotary moto= rs in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of =0A>>Kelly= Troyer=0A>>Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 3:44 PM=0A>>To: Rotary motors i= n aircraft=0A>>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>Bob,= =0A>>=C2=A0 Thanks much for the info.................Just one more =0A>>que= stion..............Info from "Turbonetics"=0A>>says the 1.15=C2=A0a/r turbi= ne housing is limited to the F1-65 mm or F1-68 mm turbine =0A>>wheel.......= =0A>>=C2=A0 Do you have info as to what=C2=A0turbine wheel was installed in= your 60-1 turbo =0A>>??..............=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>Thanks Again,=0A>>=C2= =A0=0A>>Kelly Troyer=0A>>"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=0A>>"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/= EM2=0A>>"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold =0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>=0A____= ____________________________=0A=0A>>From:" Rogers, Bob J. " =0A>>To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>>Sen= t: Thu, August 12, 2010 1:39:26 PM=0A>>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Quest= ions=0A>>Kelly,=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>I limit my takeoff power to no more than 42 = =E2=80=9C of manifold pressure (=E2=80=9CMP=E2=80=9D), =0A>>usually just 40= =E2=80=9D .=C2=A0 At altitudes of 5,000 feet and above, I generally run no = =0A>>more than about 36 =E2=80=9C MP (15 GPH) and 180 knots.=C2=A0 Engine R= PM is about 5,800.=C2=A0 The =0A>>turbo is capable of considerably more boo= st than this, but I have to watch =0A>>engine water and oil temps at higher= power settings.=C2=A0 I do not want to run more =0A>>than 200 degrees on o= il or water and prefer 180 degrees.=C2=A0 I can maintain these =0A>>temps (= even on hot days) with cowl flap settings from closed to full open as =0A>>= long as I keep the power settings at or below those described above.=C2=A0 = One day, I =0A>>climbed to 11,000 feet and my GPS groundspeed (with a sligh= t tailwind) was 213 =0A>>knots.=C2=A0 MP was 36=E2=80=9D, RPM 6,000.=C2=A0 = I have a 68=E2=80=9D diameter x 84 pitch Prince P-tip =0A>>fixed pitch prop= coupled to the RWS 2.17/1 reduction unit.=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>Bob --0-720048712-1282853072=:43137 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=0A
Scott,
=0A
  Speaking of pictures how= about a few of your installation !!................
 
Kelly T= royer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_= Backplate/Oil Manifold =0A

=0A

=0A
=0A
=0AFrom:= "shipchief@aol.com" <shipchief@aol.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrota= ry@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thu, August 26, 2010 12:29:38 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions

=0A
Thanks Dave and all!
=0A=
I think I'm on the right track. After I redesigned the cooling system,= and added an oil restrictor to the turbo, things have been much better. Th= e EC-2 responds according to Tracy's manual, especially after I cleared the= oil out of the manifold pressure sense lines.
=0A
I still don't = have a duct in the left cowl cheek. This is going to take some thinking, be= cause it needs to supply engine combustion air, surface cooling air for the= engine compartment, and a cool air blast tube for the injectors,= which are fairly close to the exhaust.
=0A
I like the idea of upg= rading to a stainless steel radiant heat shield for the exhaust header, whi= ch might glow a bright yellow under full climb power.
=0A
=0A
Kelly; thanks for the pic of the turbo housing,= it looks just like mine! I'm sure it would be a quick n' easy job to switc= h it out if it comes to that.
=0A
I know pictures of my 'engine ro= om' look a mess, but it's actually fairly modular. Peeling off the layers i= sn't to time consuming.
=0A
Today was a milestone for me....the wi= ngs were moved from the building room in the house, and set next to the fus= elage in the garage!
=0A
YAWN, you say? I know it's not "Rotary" b= ut it's a big deal for me. 3D:-)
S= cott
=0A
-----Original Message-----
From: David Leonard <wdl= eonard@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancair= online.net>
Sent: Wed, Aug 25, 2010 9:37 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] R= e: Turbo Questions

=0A
=0A
I don't particularly worry about temps after shut dow= n.  The reflective coating on the inside of the cowl in the hot areas = is all that seems to be needed. I use regular aluminum foil attached with s= pray adhesive.  I try to park into the wind if possible, but don't rea= lly worry about it.  The cowl does get quite hot to the touch, but see= ms to be able to handle the heat.  Your results may vary depending on = installation and heat load (mass of exhaust metal).
=0A
 =
=0A
Radiant heat during flight is a different matter and needs to= be thought of separately.  this is the shielding of the components (l= ike mount) that get close to exhaust system.  aluminum works well as l= ong as it is more than 1/4 inch or so away but be aware that if the exhaust= should spring a leak, the aluminum will melt pronto while SS will hold up.=  

One of the nice things for me, using the stock housing and m= anifold, is that I can use the stock heat shields that hold up well, fit pe= rfect, and are dirt cheap. 

I used to wrap my exhaust pipe wit= h the extra tough 2000 deg wrap but it would only last 100 hrs or so. = the other stuff not as well.  didn't seem to make much difference so = i stopped using it.  Most of that wraping/fiber/weave/cloth stuff is j= unk.  Be careful if you use it for anything important.. may even be a = fire risk.

nowadays,besides the stock heat shielding, I put aluminum or SS heat shields over the things that need to be protected and leave the= hot stuff alone.

Hope that helps

Dave Leonard

= =0A
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 10:25 PM, <shipchief@aol.com> wrote= :
=0A
=0A
ANOTHER TURBO QUESTION:
=0A=
What about turbo insulation. Dave Leonard, you mentioned it before, an= d I listened. Now I'm ground running (3 hours!!) and under cowl temps after= shutdown seem high. I have the Van's foil sheeting on the inside of the co= wl anywhere near the turbo, a sewn insulation cover for the turbo that Dave= said would be insufficient, and some kevlar-like welder's drop cloth in a = single wrap around the turbo down pipe. The turbo header is bare with an al= uminum heat shield to keep direct radiant heat off the motor mount and lowe= r intake manifold. I'm afraid to insulate the header,as rotary exhaust= temps are challenging to 321 stainless steel.
=0A
Right now, I o= pen the oil door to let heat out after ground runs, and before addition of = the foil, I used to run the shop vac discharge hose in the cowl to move som= e air too. I need a solution that would allow flying to another destination= , not just back to my hanger where a fan can cool the under-cowl area so th= e fiberglass doesn't melt.
=0A
Any practical advise?
=0A<= DIV style=3D"CLEAR: both">


=0A
=0A
-----Original Message--= ---
From: Kelly Troyer <keltro@att.net>= ;
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
=0A
=0A
=
=0A
Sent: Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:10 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: T= urbo Questions

=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
  The only pos= sible downside I can see is turbine over-speed at altitude.........Par= t of this equation
=0A
is based on what rpm your engine will = be turning at takeoff and cruise, the altitudes you fly and
=0A<= DIV>the psru ratio you have (2.17 or 2.85) with the 2.85 probably averaging= 600 to 1000 rpm higher 
=0A
for both takeoff and cruise (fue= l flow concerns may also be a personal factor)..........Also your prop=
=0A
is a factor depending if it is fixed pitch or constant speed = (or in-flight adjust such as my "IVO").......
=0A
 
 =   With an adjustable pitch prop you can load the engine at a lowe= r rpm and control turbo boost
=0A
with the throttle while bei= ng careful to avoid detonation.........The bottom line is only flight testi= ng
=0A
can determine exactly how your turbo will perform in your = particular installation..............Should
=0A
your .81 a/r rati= o turbine housing be a little too tight a .96 a/r ratio "On Center" housing=  to fit your
=0A
"P" trim (F1-65mm) turbine wheel is readily= available for less than $300.00 and the .96 housing is
=0A
&= nbsp;working well for John Slade and his "IVO" equipped "Cosy"&nb= sp;............ 
=0A
 
=0A
  Let the group= know how all is working once you get her in the air !!.............FWIW=0A
 
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"R= WS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold =0A

=0A<= DIV style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">=0A
=0A
=0AFrom: "sh= ipchief@aol.com" <shipchief@aol.com>
To: Rotary motors = in aircraft <flyrotary= @lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wed, August 18, 2010 6:46:46 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions

=0A
Correction!!!
=0A
I= just checked my aircraft manual, and the Turbo has a .81 AR. That's pretty= tight for this group discussion. I guess we will see what happens as I run= my engine at higher power.

=0A


=0A
-----Original Message-----
From: shipchief@aol.com
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>=
Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 3:49 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Quest= ions

=0A
=0A
Georg= e Kelly and all;
=0A
I've been off the list for a while (work) but= today I safety wired the water pump pulley bolts, as discussed in  'o= ne thing leads to another'.
=0A
Then I ran my engine for 40 minute= s @ 1900 RPM. The low voltage that alerted me to the pully bolts was still = with me, so I ran the engine with the upper cowl off, and climbed out of th= e cockpit to have a look.
=0A
I always sat in the plane while run= ning it before, so this was pretty informative. I ran it for a while, more = than 20 minutes watching the battery voltage slowly drop to 11.9 volts= , still the engine ran sweet. I checked alternator output; it was just batt= ery voltage, so nothing. I hooked up a battery charger and kept running so = I could watch the belt, feel the intake manifold and turbo etc. and look fo= r problem areas. I'm feeling good about my installation becuase it looks fa= irly neat and runs smooth and sweet. I'm beginning to feel that this is goi= ng to be a success story. wink, wink, Tracy. I just need to finish the airp= lane ;)
=0A
About the Turbo:
=0A
I'm running a 60-1 P tri= m compressor and .97 AR On-Center TO-4 turbine housing ( if = I recall correctly) with a water cooled bearing. I built the exhaust manifo= ld simply because the Fred Brease mount I bought would not accomodate = the cast iron Mazda Turbo manifold.  I selected the On-Center tur= bine because I wanted the design flexibility it offered, and in fact I was = able to mount the turbo with the exhaust oulet facing aft. The down pipe is= very short, the intake filter is directly on the turbo compressor, and to = finally get to my point, my turbo is direct mounted to the engine with a ve= ry short but somewhat large volume 321 stainless manifold.
=0A
I = decided to give up all the waste gates, blow off valves, remote mounts, fle= x joints, etc. and followed Kelly Johnson's addage: "Add Lightness and Simp= licate".
=0A
I installed the battery in the back of my RV-8 becaus= e RV-8's with Lycoming IO-360 & constant speed props need to do th= is for CG reasons. I couldn't imagine my 13BT being lighter. Still, li= ghtness is required, so I work at it. All those accoutraments hav= e there place, and maybe I will end up needing some or all of them, but I d= ecided to start with none of them and go forth. I'll add what ever I end up= needing.
=0A
My turbo air pipe is somewhat long, but it does pass= by the left side of the cowl where I could mount an intercooler with air e= xit, so I have that as a possibility. If I need a waste gate, I'll just cut= a hole in the exhaust manifold and TIG weld in a bypass pipe with or witho= ut some kind of valve....I have a spot in mind for that too.
=0A
I= may be over thinking this whole thing, and that is part of why I build so = slowly.
=0A
But I do have 2.5 hours on the EM-2 hobbs meter!!=

=0A


=0A
-----Origina= l Message-----
From: George Lendich <lendich@aanet.com.au>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 2:03 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo = Questions

=0A
=0A
 Kelly,
=0A
Let us all know how well it = goes for you in the real world application. I can't help but feel we are tr= ying to fit a square peg in a round hole with Turbo application to Aviation= needs.
=0A
 
= =0A
Personally for myself, as I have stated= before, I feel that I would use remote mounted turbo, like some cars = use (to reduce the heat and flow speed to the turbo) and feed it from a byp= ass off the exhaust pipe. The by-pass could be controlled manually, for (wh= en required) application. A wastegate does the same thing but the exha= ust is taken right up to the turbo and carries the heat with it. I think th= is would go a long way in controlling heat and over spinning issues.=
=0A
 
=0A
However you need the necessary room to make this poss= ible.
=0A
George (down under)
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
Bob, John and All,
=0A
 
= =0A
     Well I have bit the bullet and made m= y decision for a turbo............After much research, talking to Bob =0A
and John and conferring with a "Turbonetics" dealer I have or= dered a TO4E-50 trim (compressor wheel),
=0A
wet bearing housing,= big shaft "Q" trim (F1-68mm) turbine wheel and 1.15 a/r ratio turbine= housing.........
=0A
 
=0A
    = The decision what size turbine wheel and a/r ratio housing was based = on the fact that the f1-68mm
=0A
turbine and 1.15 a/r housing= causes less exhaust back pressure than the smaller wheel (bigger hole) and=
=0A
will increase rpm less as you increase altitude as oppos= ed to the F1-65mm wheel plus the 1.15 a/r ratio
=0A
housing will&n= bsp;slow rpm increase for the same reason............
=0A
 =0A
    The decision to go with the 50 trim compress= or wheel (Like John) verses the 60-1 wheel (Like Bob) was =0A
based the "Flow Maps" of both wheels and my uned= ucated opinion that the 50 trim wheel would be running
=0A
in a m= ore efficient area of the flow map base on the "Air Consumption Chart" (lbs= per min) of the 1.3L 13B
=0A
that I submitted to the group in a = previous post.............Of course for all practical purposes there is pro= bably
=0A
little discernible difference between any of these = turbo configurations mentioned.............
=0A
 
=0A   At least I have livened up the forum for a while !!.........= ...FWIW..................<:)
=0A
 
Kelly Troyer
"D= yke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/O= il Manifold =0A

=0A

=0A
=0A
=0AFrom:= "Rogers, Bob J." <BRogers@FDIC.gov><= BR>To: Rotary motors in air= craft <flyrotary@lanca= ironline.net>
Sent: Tue, August 17, 2010 5:20:49 PM
= Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions

=0A
= =0A
Yes, I used the Je= t-Hot 2000 coating, shown at this link. http://www.jet-hot.com/h= eadercoatings.html  I think that it is very effective= to reduce heat in the engine compartment.
=0A
 
=0AIt is only applied at= the Oklahoma City facility.
=0A
<= FONT color=3Dnavy size=3D2 face=3DArial> 
=0A
Bob
=0A
=0A=0A
=0A
=0A
From: Rotary = motors in aircraft [mai= lto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] O= n Behalf Of Kelly Troyer
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 3:02 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions<= /SPAN>
=0A
 
= =0A
=0A
=0A
Bob,
=0A
=0A
  Did you have your turbine h= ousing and exhaust pipe coated with heat resistant
=
=0A
=0A
coating and if so what and whe= re ??.............
=0A
=0A
 
=0A
=0A
<= FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>Thanks,
 
=0A
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
= "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
=0A
=0A
 
=0A
=0A
 
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
From: " Rogers, Bob J. " <BRogers@FDIC.g= ov>
To: Rotary mo= tors in aircraft <flyr= otary@lancaironline.net>
Sen= t: Mon, August 16, 2010 10:57:22 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions
=0A
=0A
K= elly,
=0A
 
=0A
There is one pretty good picture of the turbo installation = (before radiator baffling) on our EAA Chapter 1246 website at:  http://www.eaa1246.org/projectsnpl= anesdisplay.asp?id=3D10&pic=3D190. ; Because the oil drains fr= om the turbo into a sump that is lower than the oil pan, I must use an elec= tric pump to transfer the oil back into the engine oil pan.  Attached = is a view from the front, which shows the hoses and tubing from the turbo c= ompressor to the intercooler and back to the intake manifold.  =
=0A
 
=0A
Bob
=0A
 
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline= .net] On Behalf Of Kell= y Troyer
Sent: Monday, A= ugust 16, 2010 10:02 AM
To:<= /B> Rotary motors in aircraft
Subje= ct: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions
=0A=
 
=0A
=0A
=0A
Bob,
=0A
=0A
   I am waiting on a clarification  from "Turbo= netics" as to what size turbine wheel
=0A
=0A<= DIV class=3DMsoNormal>would turn the least rpm as altitude increa= ses.............I know the  turbine housing
= =0A
=0A
a/r ratio is a big factor effectin= g turbine rpm as we climb but it is not clear to me
=0A
=0A
how the turbine wheel di= ameter and trim factor in.............Air density lessens with
=0A
=0A
= altitude but I am = not smart enough to know if the larger or smaller turbine wheel=
=0A
=0A
will have the hig= hest rpm because of this factor as we climb ??.........<= /DIV>
=0A
=0A
 
=0A
=0A
  Perhaps I am being ana= l about this but and you are probably correct that that the <= /DIV>
=0A
=0A
effect of a 3mm diam= eter difference between the two turbine wheels is slight and
=0A
=0A
probably inconseque= ntial...........If any of our multi-talented group members would
=0A
=0A
like to shine some l= ight on this please jump in here !!..........
=0A<= DIV>=0A
 
=0A
= =0A
  On another note do you happen to have= any photos of your 13B/turbo installation
=0A=0A
during construction that you would care to = share with the group ??..........You have
=0A
= =0A
a beautiful (to Rotorheads) and well thought= out installation which from your report
=0A
= =0A
is working very well and I am sure othe= rs of the group would like to plagiarize.....<:)
=0A
=0A
 
= =0A
=0A
Best Regards, <= /DIV>
=0A
=0A
   =
=0A
Kelly Troyer=
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=
"RW= S"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold 
=0A
=0A
&nb= sp;
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A=
=0A
From:= " Rogers, Bob J. " &l= t;BRogers@FDIC.gov>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>=
Sent: Fri, August 13, 2= 010 11:49:06 AM
Subject:= [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions
=0A
=0A
Kelly,
=0A<= DIV class=3DMsoNormal> <= /DIV>=0A
I do not know= which wheel is in my turbo.  I expect the larger wheel (68 mm) to tur= n a little more slowly, since it has a larger surface area to absorb the ex= haust, but it should not make much difference.  Either one should be O= K.  The Turbonetics people can probably explain the performance differ= ences between the two wheel sizes.
=0A
 
=0A
Bob
=0A
 
= =0A
=0A
= =0A
=0A
=0AFrom: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Kelly Troyer
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 3:44 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turb= o Questions
=0A
 
=0A
=0A
=0A
Bob,
=0A
=0A
  Thanks much f= or the info.................Just one more question..............Info from "= Turbonetics"
says the 1.15 a/r turbine housing is limited to the F1= -65 mm or F1-68 mm turbine wheel.......
=0A
= =0A
  Do you have info as to what turb= ine wheel was installed in your 60-1 turbo ??..............
=0A
=0A
 
=
=0A
=0A
Thanks Again,
=0A
=0A
 
<= /DIV>=0A
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY= Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
=0A
=0A
 
=0A
=0A
 
=0A=
=0A
= =0A
=0A=0A
From: " Rogers, Bob J. " <BRogers@FDIC.gov>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thu, August 12, 2010 1:39:= 26 PM
Subject: [FlyRotar= y] Re: Turbo Questions
=0A
Kelly,
=0A
 
=0A
I limit my takeoff power to no more= than 42 =E2=80=9C of manifold pressure (=E2=80=9CMP=E2=80=9D)= , usually just 40=E2=80=9D .  At altitudes of 5,000 feet and above, I = generally run no more than about 36 =E2=80=9C MP (15 GPH) and 180 knots.&nb= sp; Engine RPM is about 5,800.  The turbo is capable of considerably m= ore boost than this, but I have to watch engine water and oil temps at high= er power settings.  I do not want to run more than 200 degrees on oil = or water and prefer 180 degrees.  I can maintain these temps (even on = hot days) with cowl flap settings from closed to full open as long as I kee= p the power settings at or below those described above.  One day, I cl= imbed to 11,000 feet and my GPS groundspeed (with a slight tailwind) was 21= 3 knots.  MP was 36=E2=80=9D, RPM 6,000.  I have a 68=E2=80=9D di= ameter x 84 pitch Prince P-tip fixed pitch prop coupled to the RWS 2.17/1 reduction unit.=0A
=  
=0A
Bob


--0-720048712-1282853072=:43137--