X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from web83907.mail.sp1.yahoo.com ([69.147.92.109] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.8) with SMTP id 4444970 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 26 Aug 2010 16:00:47 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=69.147.92.109; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: (qmail 26169 invoked by uid 60001); 26 Aug 2010 20:00:09 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1282852805; bh=yFBkUn0fviPXPiV1NSrHt/LembxPbGkaX+G2/SRUSPY=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=6TG3tFODuxJbclLIeGfTBGtowiBwdIOadAUWNH3j3EXfyesNOwn0bmYkuiwuTgqAoIMI6vNhMS0/z//PHbrYzfbtkhUrE7PYoml96ae1qNYyy9SBfyjL0AvXQ2nlBp1wbPMbTVCZxqVIEEpCsLKeksSpBiL68KWhUL8N545EIsY= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=att.net; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=T06kc6L0hHYBq9x1t8Q8anc+0iY4nCVsBh4/AclZZXYtDjiPFNhunBKdAGUSTECRupiYs3Bw1/+tQ+t8Gjoj3+2r3D3q8TKa0f4wg6+ZgchWXVKG0NZbo6wTNJu2lVFk9Z8NBknn61ID4JjQ5PrgIc4X9Lkqv7VyREB7pFOK+30=; Message-ID: <712959.1179.qm@web83907.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: kqE7vfYVM1nt47I..AYBszqMVzramCaY6ti8SitSPPoRg6s x8HIbvKMDVRUAnrATaGnkD1Y1xdao6so_4bi4I5u47uY06DQxHn4CyFkFE_x mVVqNEjyUD7g56wjbZtJI6vaBkcc_1Pq8qeqMEE9TZ.3F15k9bBq4pcvXhJR Pez.mi9mbBl0ksdr3_84N.vZhBLycuJurdoSsid5vFMyV2fu_pdQ0HtbW0XH Ki9Ds9Ve.nn067yBKBr6qWnbWwjNZY6crDu_nxiEF26J3W7S1PmWlaevGkPX hFdvwc9dseUVyTmHHme6GkxFvsy1gcJ5lCpd8fAsGevcTeGHp61rNnUbxjt3 VNqvu3610VXUBYNiYlp7bQBSRGX0vaZZgU8UO Received: from [208.114.37.220] by web83907.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 26 Aug 2010 13:00:05 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/470 YahooMailWebService/0.8.105.279950 Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 13:00:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Kelly Troyer Subject: Re: Turbo Questions To: Rotary motors in aircraft MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1716567988-1282852805=:1179" --0-1716567988-1282852805=:1179 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Group,=0A=0A=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Source for a less ex= pensive ($169.00)=C2=A0tangential .96 a/r ratio turbine =0Ahousing on "E ba= y"=C2=A0that will fit a=C2=A0"P" trim (F1-65mm)=0Aturbine wheel for any of = the group that may have a need for it............FWIW=0A=0A=C2=A0Kelly Troy= er=0A"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A"Mistral"_Backpl= ate/Oil Manifold=0A=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=0ADear Kelly,= =0A=0Ap trim=0A=0A=0A- billys_speed_shop Click "respond" to reply through M= essages, or go to your =0Aemail to reply =0A=0A =0A=0A=0ADear billys_speed= _shop,=0A=0AWhat trim turbine wheel will this .96 housing fit ?......Will a= "Turbonetics" P =0Atrim (F1-65mm or Q trim (F1-68mm)wheel fit ?=0AThanks,= =0A=0A=0AKelly Troyer =0A=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =0A SP= A Turbo .96 T4 A/R exhaust turbine hot housing =0AItem Id: 220372738337 = =0AEnd time: Aug-26-10 21:59:43 PDT =0ABuyer: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=0A=0A_______________= _________________=0AFrom: "shipchief@aol.com" =0ATo: Rot= ary motors in aircraft =0ASent: Thu, August 26= , 2010 12:29:38 AM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions=0A=0AThanks D= ave and all!=0AI think I'm on the right track. After I redesigned the cooli= ng system, and added =0Aan oil restrictor to the turbo, things have been mu= ch better. The EC-2 responds =0Aaccording to Tracy's manual, especially aft= er I cleared the oil out of the =0Amanifold pressure sense lines. =0A=0AI s= till don't have a duct in the left cowl cheek. This is going to take some = =0Athinking, because it needs to supply engine combustion air, surface cool= ing air =0Afor the engine compartment, and a=C2=A0cool air blast tube for t= he=C2=A0injectors, which =0Aare fairly close to the exhaust.=0AI like the i= dea of upgrading to a stainless steel radiant heat shield for the =0Aexhaus= t header, which might glow a bright yellow under full climb power.=0AKelly;= thanks for the pic of the turbo housing, it looks just like mine! I'm =0As= ure it would be a quick n' easy job to switch it out if it comes to that.= =0AI know pictures of my 'engine room' look a mess, but it's actually fairl= y =0Amodular. Peeling off the layers isn't to time consuming.=0AToday was a= milestone for me....the wings were moved from the building room in =0Athe = house, and set next to the fuselage in the garage!=0AYAWN, you say? I know = it's not "Rotary" but it's a big deal for me. =0AScott=0A=0A-----Original M= essage-----=0AFrom: David Leonard =0ATo: Rotary motors= in aircraft =0ASent: Wed, Aug 25, 2010 9:37 p= m=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions=0A=0A=0AI don't particularly w= orry about temps after shut down.=C2=A0 The reflective coating =0Aon the in= side of the cowl in the hot areas is all that seems to be needed. I use =0A= regular aluminum foil attached with spray adhesive.=C2=A0 I try to park int= o the wind =0Aif possible, but don't really worry about it.=C2=A0 The cowl = does get quite hot to =0Athe touch, but seems to be able to handle the heat= .=C2=A0 Your results may vary =0Adepending on installation and heat load (m= ass of exhaust metal).=0A=0A=0ARadiant heat during flight is a different ma= tter and needs to be thought of =0Aseparately.=C2=A0 this is the shielding = of the components (like mount) that get close =0Ato exhaust system.=C2=A0 a= luminum works well as long as it is more than 1/4 inch or =0Aso away but be= aware that if the exhaust should spring a leak, the aluminum will =0Amelt = pronto while SS will hold up.=C2=A0 =0A=0A=0AOne of the nice things for me,= using the stock housing and manifold, is that I =0Acan use the stock heat = shields that hold up well, fit perfect, and are dirt =0Acheap.=C2=A0 =0A=0A= =0AI used to wrap my exhaust pipe with the extra tough 2000 deg wrap but it= would =0Aonly last 100 hrs or so.=C2=A0 the other stuff not as well.=C2=A0= didn't seem to make much =0Adifference so i stopped using it.=C2=A0 Most o= f that wraping/fiber/weave/cloth stuff =0Ais junk.=C2=A0 Be careful if you = use it for anything important.. may even be a fire =0Arisk.=0A=0Anowadays,b= esides the stock heat shielding, I put aluminum or SS heat shields =0Aover = the things that need to be protected and leave the hot stuff alone.=0A=0AHo= pe that helps=0A=0ADave Leonard=0A=0A=0AOn Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 10:25 PM, <= shipchief@aol.com> wrote:=0A=0AANOTHER TURBO QUESTION:=0A>What about turbo = insulation. Dave Leonard, you mentioned it before, and I =0A>listened. Now = I'm ground running (3 hours!!) and under cowl temps after shutdown =0A>seem= high. I have the Van's foil sheeting on the inside of the cowl anywhere = =0A>near the turbo, a sewn insulation cover for the turbo that Dave said wo= uld be =0A>insufficient, and some kevlar-like welder's drop cloth in a sing= le wrap around =0A>the turbo down pipe. The turbo header is bare with an al= uminum heat shield to =0A>keep direct radiant heat off the motor mount and = lower intake manifold. I'm =0A>afraid to insulate the header,as=C2=A0rotary= exhaust temps are challenging to 321 =0A>stainless steel. =0A>=0A>Right no= w, I open the oil door to let heat out after ground runs, and before =0A>ad= dition of the foil, I used to run the shop vac discharge hose in the cowl t= o =0A>move some air too. I need a solution that would allow flying to anoth= er =0A>destination, not just back to my hanger where a fan can cool the und= er-cowl area =0A>so the fiberglass doesn't melt.=0A>Any practical advise?= =0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>-----Original Message-----=0A>From: Kelly Troyer =0A>To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>= =0A>Sent: Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:10 am=0A>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Quest= ions=0A>=0A>=0A>=C2=A0 The only possible downside I can see is=C2=A0turbine= over-speed at =0A>altitude.........Part of this equation=0A>is based on wh= at rpm your=C2=A0engine will be turning at takeoff and cruise, the =0A>alti= tudes you fly=C2=A0and =0A>=0A>the psru ratio you have (2.17 or 2.85) with = the 2.85 probably averaging 600 to =0A>1000 rpm higher=C2=A0=0A>for both ta= keoff and cruise (fuel flow concerns may also=C2=A0be a personal =0A>factor= )..........Also your prop=0A>is a factor depending if it is fixed pitch or = constant speed (or in-flight =0A>adjust such as my "IVO").......=0A>=C2=A0= =0A>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0With an adjustable pitch prop you can load the engine= at a lower rpm and =0A>control=C2=A0turbo boost=0A>with the throttle while= being careful to avoid detonation.........The bottom =0A>line is only flig= ht testing =0A>=0A>can determine exactly how your turbo will perform in you= r particular =0A>installation..............Should =0A>=0A>your .81 a/r rati= o turbine housing be a little too tight a .96 a/r ratio "On =0A>Center" hou= sing=C2=A0to fit your =0A>=0A>"P" trim (F1-65mm) turbine wheel is readily a= vailable for less than $300.00 and =0A>the=C2=A0.96 housing is=0A>=C2=A0wor= king well for=C2=A0John Slade and his "IVO"=C2=A0equipped "Cosy"=C2=A0.....= .......=C2=A0=0A>=0A>=C2=A0 Let the group know how all is working once you = get her in the air =0A>!!.............FWIW=0A>Kelly Troyer=0A>"Dyke Delta"_= 13B ROTARY Engine=0A>"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A>"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold= =0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A________________________________=0AFrom: "shipchief= @aol.com" =0A>To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>Sent: Wed, August 18, 2010 6:46:46 PM=0A>Subject: [Fly= Rotary] Re: Turbo Questions=0A>=0A>Correction!!!=0A>I just checked my aircr= aft manual, and the Turbo has a .81 AR. That's pretty =0A>tight for this gr= oup discussion. I guess we will see what happens as I run my =0A>engine at = higher power.=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>-----Original Message-----=0A>From: shipch= ief@aol.com=0A>To: Rotary motors in aircraft = =0A>Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 3:49 pm=0A>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Quest= ions=0A>=0A>=0A>George Kelly and all;=0A>I've been off the list for a while= (work) but today I safety wired the water =0A>pump pulley bolts, as discus= sed in=C2=A0 'one thing leads to another'.=0A>Then I ran my engine for 40 m= inutes @ 1900 RPM. The low voltage that alerted me =0A>to the pully bolts w= as still with me, so I ran the engine with the upper cowl =0A>off, and clim= bed out of the cockpit to have a look. =0A>=0A>I always sat in the plane wh= ile running it before, so this was pretty =0A>informative. I ran it for a w= hile, more than 20 minutes watching the battery =0A>voltage slowly=C2=A0dro= p to 11.9 volts, still the engine ran sweet. I checked =0A>alternator outpu= t; it was just battery voltage, so nothing. I hooked up a =0A>battery charg= er and kept running so I could watch the belt, feel the intake =0A>manifold= and turbo etc. and look for problem areas. I'm feeling good about my =0A>i= nstallation becuase it looks fairly neat and runs smooth and sweet. I'm =0A= >beginning to feel that this is going to be a success story. wink, wink, Tr= acy. I =0A>just need to finish the airplane ;)=0A>About the Turbo:=0A>I'm r= unning a 60-1 P trim compressor=C2=A0and .97 AR On-Center TO-4 turbine=C2= =A0housing=C2=A0( =0A>if I recall correctly) with a water cooled bearing. I= built the exhaust manifold =0A>simply because the Fred Brease mount I boug= ht would=C2=A0not accomodate the cast=C2=A0iron =0A>Mazda Turbo manifold. = =C2=A0I selected the On-Center turbine because I wanted the =0A>design flex= ibility it offered, and in fact I was able to mount the turbo with =0A>the = exhaust oulet facing aft. The down pipe is very short, the intake filter is= =0A>directly on the turbo compressor, and to finally get to my point, my t= urbo is =0A>direct mounted to the engine with a very short but somewhat lar= ge volume 321 =0A>stainless manifold. =0A>=0A>I decided to give up all the = waste gates, blow off valves, remote mounts, flex =0A>joints, etc. and foll= owed Kelly Johnson's addage: "Add Lightness and =0A>Simplicate".=0A>I insta= lled the battery in the back of my RV-8 because RV-8's with Lycoming =0A>IO= -360=C2=A0& constant speed props need to do this for CG reasons. I couldn't= imagine =0A>my 13BT being lighter. Still,=C2=A0lightness is required, so I= work at it.=C2=A0All =0A>those=C2=A0accoutraments have there place, and ma= ybe I will end up needing some or =0A>all of them, but I decided to start w= ith none of them and go forth. I'll add =0A>what ever I end up needing.=0A>= My turbo air pipe is somewhat long, but it does pass by the left side of th= e =0A>cowl where I could mount an intercooler with air exit, so I have that= as a =0A>possibility. If I need a waste gate, I'll just cut a hole in the = exhaust =0A>manifold and TIG weld in a bypass pipe with or without some kin= d of valve....I =0A>have a spot in mind for that too.=0A>I may be over thin= king this whole thing, and that is part of why I build so =0A>slowly.=0A>Bu= t I do=C2=A0have 2.5 hours on the EM-2 hobbs meter!! =0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>--= ---Original Message-----=0A>From: George Lendich =0A>= To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>Sent: Wed, A= ug 18, 2010 2:03 pm=0A>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions=0A>=0A>=0A>= =C2=A0Kelly,=0A>Let us all know how well it goes for you in the real world = application. I can't =0A>help but feel we are trying to fit a square peg in= a round hole with Turbo =0A>application to Aviation needs.=0A>=C2=A0=0A>Pe= rsonally for myself, as I have stated before, I feel that I would use remot= e =0A>mounted turbo, like some cars=C2=A0use (to reduce the heat and flow s= peed to the =0A>turbo) and feed it from a bypass off the exhaust pipe. The = by-pass could be =0A>controlled manually, for (when required) application.= =C2=A0A wastegate does the same =0A>thing but the exhaust is taken right up= to the turbo and carries the heat with =0A>it. I think this would go a lon= g way in controlling heat and over spinning =0A>issues.=0A>=C2=A0=0A>Howeve= r you need the necessary room to make this possible.=0A>George (down under)= =0A>Bob, John and All,=0A>>=0A>>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Well I have b= it the bullet and made my decision for a =0A>>turbo............After much r= esearch, talking to Bob =0A>>=0A>>and John and conferring with a=C2=A0"Turb= onetics" dealer I have ordered a TO4E-50 =0A>>trim (compressor wheel), =0A>= >=0A>>wet bearing housing, big shaft "Q" trim (F1-68mm) turbine wheel and= =C2=A01.15 a/r =0A>>ratio turbine housing.........=0A>>=0A>>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 The decision=C2=A0what size turbine wheel and a/r ratio housing w= as based on the =0A>>fact that the=C2=A0f1-68mm=0A>>turbine and 1.15 a/r ho= using causes less exhaust back pressure than the smaller =0A>>wheel (bigger= hole) and=0A>>will increase rpm less=C2=A0as you increase altitude as oppo= sed to the F1-65mm wheel =0A>>plus the 1.15 a/r ratio=0A>>housing will=C2= =A0slow rpm increase for the same reason............=0A>>=0A>>=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 The decision to go with the 50 trim compressor wheel (Like John)=C2= =A0verses the =0A>>60-1=C2=A0wheel (Like Bob)=C2=A0was =0A>>=0A>>based=C2= =A0the "Flow Maps" of both wheels=C2=A0and my=C2=A0uneducated opinion that = the 50 trim =0A>>wheel would be running =0A>>=0A>>in a more efficient area = of the flow map base on the "Air Consumption Chart" =0A>>(lbs per min) of t= he 1.3L 13B =0A>>=0A>>that I submitted to the group in a previous post.....= ........Of course for all =0A>>practical purposes there is probably=0A>>lit= tle=C2=A0discernible difference between any of these turbo configurations = =0A>>mentioned.............=0A>>=0A>>=C2=A0=C2=A0 At least I have livened u= p the forum for a while =0A>>!!............FWIW..................<:)=0A>>Ke= lly Troyer=0A>>"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=0A>>"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A>>"M= istral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold =0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A________________= ________________=0AFrom: "Rogers, Bob J." =0A>>To: Rotary= motors in aircraft =0A>>Sent: Tue, August 17,= 2010 5:20:49 PM=0A>>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions=0A>>=0A>>=0A>= >Yes, I used the Jet-Hot 2000 coating, shown at this link. =0A>>http://www.= jet-hot.com/headercoatings.html=C2=A0 I think that it is very effective to = =0A>>reduce heat in the engine compartment.=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>It is only appli= ed at the Oklahoma City facility.=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>Bob=0A>>=0A_______________= _________________=0A=0A>>From:Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@l= ancaironline.net] On Behalf Of =0A>>Kelly Troyer=0A>>Sent: Tuesday, August = 17, 2010 3:02 PM=0A>>To: Rotary motors in aircraft=0A>>Subject: [FlyRotary]= Re: Turbo Questions=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>Bob,=0A>>=C2=A0 Did you have your turbi= ne housing=C2=A0and exhaust pipe coated with heat =0Aresistant=0A>>coating = and if so what and where ??.............=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>Thanks,=0A>>=C2=A0= =0A>>Kelly Troyer=0A>>"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=0A>>"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2= =0A>>"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold =0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>=0A_______= _________________________=0A=0A>>From:" Rogers, Bob J. " = =0A>>To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>>Sent: = Mon, August 16, 2010 10:57:22 AM=0A>>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questio= ns=0A>>Kelly,=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>There is one pretty good picture of the turbo = installation (before radiator =0A>>baffling) on our EAA Chapter 1246 websit= e at:=C2=A0 =0A>>http://www.eaa1246.org/projectsnplanesdisplay.asp?id=3D10&= pic=3D190.=C2=A0; Because the =0A>>oil drains from the turbo into a sump th= at is lower than the oil pan, I must use =0A>>an electric pump to transfer = the oil back into the engine oil pan.=C2=A0 Attached is =0A>>a view from th= e front, which shows the hoses and tubing from the turbo =0A>>compressor to= the intercooler and back to the intake manifold.=C2=A0 =0A>>=0A>>=C2=A0=0A= >>Bob=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>=0A________________________________=0A=0A>>From:Rotary= motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of =0A>>= Kelly Troyer=0A>>Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 10:02 AM=0A>>To: Rotary moto= rs in aircraft=0A>>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>= Bob,=0A>>=C2=A0=C2=A0 I am waiting on a clarification=C2=A0 from "Turboneti= cs" as to what size turbine =0A>>wheel=0A>>would=C2=A0turn the least rpm as= altitude increases.............I know the =C2=A0turbine =0A>>housing=0A>>a= /r ratio is a big factor effecting turbine rpm as=C2=A0we climb but it is n= ot clear =0A>>to me=0A>>how=C2=A0the turbine wheel diameter and trim factor= in.............Air density =0A>>lessens with=0A>>altitude but=C2=A0I am no= t smart enough to know=C2=A0if the larger or smaller turbine =0A>>wheel=0A>= >will have the highest rpm because of this factor=C2=A0as we climb ??......= ...=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>=C2=A0 Perhaps I am being anal about this but and you ar= e probably correct that that =0A>>the =0A>>=0A>>effect of=C2=A0a 3mm diamet= er=C2=A0difference between the two turbine wheels is slight and =0A>>=0A>>p= robably inconsequential...........If any of our multi-talented group member= s =0A>>would =0A>>=0A>>like to shine some light on this please jump in here= !!..........=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>=C2=A0 On another note do you happen to have a= ny photos of your 13B/turbo =0A>>installation=0A>>during construction that = you would care to share with the group ??..........You =0A>>have=0A>>a beau= tiful (to Rotorheads) and well thought out installation which from your =0A= >>report=0A>>is working very well and=C2=A0I am sure others of the group wo= uld like to =0A>>plagiarize.....<:)=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>Best Regards,=C2=A0=0A>>= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=0A>>Kelly Troyer=0A>>"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=0A>>= "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A>>"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>=C2= =A0=0A>>=0A________________________________=0A=0A>>From:" Rogers, Bob J. " = =0A>>To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>>Sent: Fri, August 13, 2010 11:49:06 AM=0A>>Subject: [FlyRotary]= Re: Turbo Questions=0A>>Kelly, =0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>I do not know which wheel i= s in my turbo.=C2=A0 I expect the larger wheel (68 mm) to =0A>>turn a littl= e more slowly, since it has a larger surface area to absorb the =0A>>exhaus= t, but it should not make much difference.=C2=A0 Either one should be OK.= =C2=A0 The =0A>>Turbonetics people can probably explain the performance dif= ferences between the =0A>>two wheel sizes.=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>Bob=0A>>=C2=A0=0A= >>=0A________________________________=0A=0A>>From:Rotary motors in aircraft= [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of =0A>>Kelly Troyer=0A>>Se= nt: Thursday, August 12, 2010 3:44 PM=0A>>To: Rotary motors in aircraft=0A>= >Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>Bob,=0A>>=C2=A0 Th= anks much for the info.................Just one more =0A>>question.........= .....Info from "Turbonetics"=0A>>says the 1.15=C2=A0a/r turbine housing is = limited to the F1-65 mm or F1-68 mm turbine =0A>>wheel.......=0A>>=C2=A0 Do= you have info as to what=C2=A0turbine wheel was installed in your 60-1 tur= bo =0A>>??..............=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>Thanks Again,=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>Kelly = Troyer=0A>>"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=0A>>"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A>>"Mistr= al"_Backplate/Oil Manifold =0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>=0A__________________= ______________=0A=0A>>From:" Rogers, Bob J. " =0A>>To: Ro= tary motors in aircraft =0A>>Sent: Thu, August= 12, 2010 1:39:26 PM=0A>>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions=0A>>Kelly= ,=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>I limit my takeoff power to no more than 42 =E2=80=9C of m= anifold pressure (=E2=80=9CMP=E2=80=9D), =0A>>usually just 40=E2=80=9D .=C2= =A0 At altitudes of 5,000 feet and above, I generally run no =0A>>more than= about 36 =E2=80=9C MP (15 GPH) and 180 knots.=C2=A0 Engine RPM is about 5,= 800.=C2=A0 The =0A>>turbo is capable of considerably more boost than this, = but I have to watch =0A>>engine water and oil temps at higher power setting= s.=C2=A0 I do not want to run more =0A>>than 200 degrees on oil or water an= d prefer 180 degrees.=C2=A0 I can maintain these =0A>>temps (even on hot da= ys) with cowl flap settings from closed to full open as =0A>>long as I keep= the power settings at or below those described above.=C2=A0 One day, I =0A= >>climbed to 11,000 feet and my GPS groundspeed (with a slight tailwind) wa= s 213 =0A>>knots.=C2=A0 MP was 36=E2=80=9D, RPM 6,000.=C2=A0 I have a 68=E2= =80=9D diameter x 84 pitch Prince P-tip =0A>>fixed pitch prop coupled to th= e RWS 2.17/1 reduction unit.=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>Bob --0-1716567988-1282852805=:1179 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=0A
=0A
   Group,
=0A
 =0A
     Source for a less expensive ($169.00)&nbs= p;tangential .96 a/r ratio turbine housing on "E bay" that will fit a&= nbsp;"P" trim (F1-65mm)
=0A
turbine wheel for any of the group tha= t may have a need for it............FWIW
=0A
 
=0A
&= nbsp;Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
=0A
    &nb= sp;            =   
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
Dear Kelly,

p trim
=0A
- billys_speed_shop
=0A
Click "respond"= to reply through Messages, or go to your email to reply = =0A=0A=0A=0A
3D"
3DRespond
=0A
=0A
=0A

=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
Dear billys_speed_sho= p,

What trim turbine wheel will this .96 housing fit ?.....= .Will a "Turbonetics" P trim (F1-65mm or Q trim (F1-68mm)wheel fit ?
Tha= nks,

=0A
Kelly Troyer
=0A
=0A
=0A
 &nbs= p;     =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
3D"SPA
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
Ite= m Id:220372738337
End time:Aug-26-10 21:59:43 PDT
=0A=0A=0A=0A
Buy= er:
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
      &nbs= p;     
=0A
=0A
From: "shipchief@aol.com" <shipchief@aol.com><= BR>To: Rotary motors in air= craft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thu, August 26, 2010 12:29:38 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions<= BR>
=0A
Thanks Dave= and all!
=0A
I think I'm on the right track. After I redesigned t= he cooling system, and added an oil restrictor to the turbo, things have be= en much better. The EC-2 responds according to Tracy's manual, especially a= fter I cleared the oil out of the manifold pressure sense lines.
=0A<= DIV>I still don't have a duct in the left cowl cheek. This is going to take= some thinking, because it needs to supply engine combustion air, surface c= ooling air for the engine compartment, and a cool air blast tube for t= he injectors, which are fairly close to the exhaust.
=0A
I li= ke the idea of upgrading to a stainless steel radiant heat shield for the e= xhaust header, which might glow a bright yellow under full climb power.=0A
=0A
Kelly; thanks for the pic of = the turbo housing, it looks just like mine! I'm sure it would be a quick n'= easy job to switch it out if it comes to that.
=0A
I know picture= s of my 'engine room' look a mess, but it's actually fairly modular. Peelin= g off the layers isn't to time consuming.
=0A
Today was a mileston= e for me....the wings were moved from the building room in the house, and s= et next to the fuselage in the garage!
=0A
YAWN, you say? I know i= t's not "Rotary" but it's a big deal for me. 3D:-)
Scott
=0A
-----Original Message-----
From: Dav= id Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <= ;flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wed, Aug 25, 2010 9:37 pm
Subj= ect: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions

=0A
=0A
I don't particularly worry about te= mps after shut down.  The reflective coating on the inside of the cowl= in the hot areas is all that seems to be needed. I use regular aluminum fo= il attached with spray adhesive.  I try to park into the wind if possi= ble, but don't really worry about it.  The cowl does get quite hot to = the touch, but seems to be able to handle the heat.  Your results may = vary depending on installation and heat load (mass of exhaust metal).
=0A
 
=0A
Radiant heat during flight is a different m= atter and needs to be thought of separately.  this is the shielding of= the components (like mount) that get close to exhaust system.  alumin= um works well as long as it is more than 1/4 inch or so away but be aware t= hat if the exhaust should spring a leak, the aluminum will melt pronto whil= e SS will hold up. 

One of the nice things for me, using the s= tock housing and manifold, is that I can use the stock heat shields that ho= ld up well, fit perfect, and are dirt cheap. 

I used to wrap m= y exhaust pipe with the extra tough 2000 deg wrap but it would only last 10= 0 hrs or so.  the other stuff not as well.  didn't seem to make m= uch difference so i stopped using it.  Most of that wraping/fiber/weav= e/cloth stuff is junk.  Be careful if you use it for anything importan= t.. may even be a fire risk.

nowadays,besides the stock heat shieldi= ng, I put aluminum or SS heat shields over the things that need to be protected and leave the= hot stuff alone.

Hope that helps

Dave Leonard

= =0A
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 10:25 PM, <shipchief@aol.com> wrote= :
=0A
=0A
ANOTHER TURBO QUESTION:
=0A=
What about turbo insulation. Dave Leonard, you mentioned it before, an= d I listened. Now I'm ground running (3 hours!!) and under cowl temps after= shutdown seem high. I have the Van's foil sheeting on the inside of the co= wl anywhere near the turbo, a sewn insulation cover for the turbo that Dave= said would be insufficient, and some kevlar-like welder's drop cloth in a = single wrap around the turbo down pipe. The turbo header is bare with an al= uminum heat shield to keep direct radiant heat off the motor mount and lowe= r intake manifold. I'm afraid to insulate the header,as rotary exhaust= temps are challenging to 321 stainless steel.
=0A
Right now, I o= pen the oil door to let heat out after ground runs, and before addition of = the foil, I used to run the shop vac discharge hose in the cowl to move som= e air too. I need a solution that would allow flying to another destination= , not just back to my hanger where a fan can cool the under-cowl area so th= e fiberglass doesn't melt.
=0A
Any practical advise?
=0A<= DIV style=3D"CLEAR: both">


=0A
=0A
-----Original Message--= ---
From: Kelly Troyer <keltro@att.net>= ;
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
=0A
=0A
=
=0A
Sent: Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:10 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: T= urbo Questions

=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
  The only pos= sible downside I can see is turbine over-speed at altitude.........Par= t of this equation
=0A
is based on what rpm your engine will = be turning at takeoff and cruise, the altitudes you fly and
=0A<= DIV>the psru ratio you have (2.17 or 2.85) with the 2.85 probably averaging= 600 to 1000 rpm higher 
=0A
for both takeoff and cruise (fue= l flow concerns may also be a personal factor)..........Also your prop=
=0A
is a factor depending if it is fixed pitch or constant speed = (or in-flight adjust such as my "IVO").......
=0A
 
 =   With an adjustable pitch prop you can load the engine at a lowe= r rpm and control turbo boost
=0A
with the throttle while bei= ng careful to avoid detonation.........The bottom line is only flight testi= ng
=0A
can determine exactly how your turbo will perform in your = particular installation..............Should
=0A
your .81 a/r rati= o turbine housing be a little too tight a .96 a/r ratio "On Center" housing=  to fit your
=0A
"P" trim (F1-65mm) turbine wheel is readily= available for less than $300.00 and the .96 housing is
=0A
&= nbsp;working well for John Slade and his "IVO" equipped "Cosy"&nb= sp;............ 
=0A
 
=0A
  Let the group= know how all is working once you get her in the air !!.............FWIW=0A
 
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"R= WS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold =0A

=0A<= DIV style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">=0A
=0A
=0AFrom: "sh= ipchief@aol.com" <shipchief@aol.com>
To: Rotary motors = in aircraft <flyrotary= @lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wed, August 18, 2010 6:46:46 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions

=0A
Correction!!!
=0A
I= just checked my aircraft manual, and the Turbo has a .81 AR. That's pretty= tight for this group discussion. I guess we will see what happens as I run= my engine at higher power.

=0A


=0A
-----Original Message-----
From: shipchief@aol.com
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>=
Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 3:49 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Quest= ions

=0A
=0A
Georg= e Kelly and all;
=0A
I've been off the list for a while (work) but= today I safety wired the water pump pulley bolts, as discussed in  'o= ne thing leads to another'.
=0A
Then I ran my engine for 40 minute= s @ 1900 RPM. The low voltage that alerted me to the pully bolts was still = with me, so I ran the engine with the upper cowl off, and climbed out of th= e cockpit to have a look.
=0A
I always sat in the plane while run= ning it before, so this was pretty informative. I ran it for a while, more = than 20 minutes watching the battery voltage slowly drop to 11.9 volts= , still the engine ran sweet. I checked alternator output; it was just batt= ery voltage, so nothing. I hooked up a battery charger and kept running so = I could watch the belt, feel the intake manifold and turbo etc. and look fo= r problem areas. I'm feeling good about my installation becuase it looks fa= irly neat and runs smooth and sweet. I'm beginning to feel that this is goi= ng to be a success story. wink, wink, Tracy. I just need to finish the airp= lane ;)
=0A
About the Turbo:
=0A
I'm running a 60-1 P tri= m compressor and .97 AR On-Center TO-4 turbine housing ( if = I recall correctly) with a water cooled bearing. I built the exhaust manifo= ld simply because the Fred Brease mount I bought would not accomodate = the cast iron Mazda Turbo manifold.  I selected the On-Center tur= bine because I wanted the design flexibility it offered, and in fact I was = able to mount the turbo with the exhaust oulet facing aft. The down pipe is= very short, the intake filter is directly on the turbo compressor, and to = finally get to my point, my turbo is direct mounted to the engine with a ve= ry short but somewhat large volume 321 stainless manifold.
=0A
I = decided to give up all the waste gates, blow off valves, remote mounts, fle= x joints, etc. and followed Kelly Johnson's addage: "Add Lightness and Simp= licate".
=0A
I installed the battery in the back of my RV-8 becaus= e RV-8's with Lycoming IO-360 & constant speed props need to do th= is for CG reasons. I couldn't imagine my 13BT being lighter. Still, li= ghtness is required, so I work at it. All those accoutraments hav= e there place, and maybe I will end up needing some or all of them, but I d= ecided to start with none of them and go forth. I'll add what ever I end up= needing.
=0A
My turbo air pipe is somewhat long, but it does pass= by the left side of the cowl where I could mount an intercooler with air e= xit, so I have that as a possibility. If I need a waste gate, I'll just cut= a hole in the exhaust manifold and TIG weld in a bypass pipe with or witho= ut some kind of valve....I have a spot in mind for that too.
=0A
I= may be over thinking this whole thing, and that is part of why I build so = slowly.
=0A
But I do have 2.5 hours on the EM-2 hobbs meter!!=

=0A


=0A
-----Origina= l Message-----
From: George Lendich <lendich@aanet.com.au>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 2:03 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo = Questions

=0A
=0A
 Kelly,
=0A
Let us all know how well it = goes for you in the real world application. I can't help but feel we are tr= ying to fit a square peg in a round hole with Turbo application to Aviation= needs.
=0A
 
= =0A
Personally for myself, as I have stated= before, I feel that I would use remote mounted turbo, like some cars = use (to reduce the heat and flow speed to the turbo) and feed it from a byp= ass off the exhaust pipe. The by-pass could be controlled manually, for (wh= en required) application. A wastegate does the same thing but the exha= ust is taken right up to the turbo and carries the heat with it. I think th= is would go a long way in controlling heat and over spinning issues.=
=0A
 
=0A
However you need the necessary room to make this poss= ible.
=0A
George (down under)
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
Bob, John and All,
=0A
 
= =0A
     Well I have bit the bullet and made m= y decision for a turbo............After much research, talking to Bob =0A
and John and conferring with a "Turbonetics" dealer I have or= dered a TO4E-50 trim (compressor wheel),
=0A
wet bearing housing,= big shaft "Q" trim (F1-68mm) turbine wheel and 1.15 a/r ratio turbine= housing.........
=0A
 
=0A
    = The decision what size turbine wheel and a/r ratio housing was based = on the fact that the f1-68mm
=0A
turbine and 1.15 a/r housing= causes less exhaust back pressure than the smaller wheel (bigger hole) and=
=0A
will increase rpm less as you increase altitude as oppos= ed to the F1-65mm wheel plus the 1.15 a/r ratio
=0A
housing will&n= bsp;slow rpm increase for the same reason............
=0A
 =0A
    The decision to go with the 50 trim compress= or wheel (Like John) verses the 60-1 wheel (Like Bob) was =0A
based the "Flow Maps" of both wheels and my uned= ucated opinion that the 50 trim wheel would be running
=0A
in a m= ore efficient area of the flow map base on the "Air Consumption Chart" (lbs= per min) of the 1.3L 13B
=0A
that I submitted to the group in a = previous post.............Of course for all practical purposes there is pro= bably
=0A
little discernible difference between any of these = turbo configurations mentioned.............
=0A
 
=0A   At least I have livened up the forum for a while !!.........= ...FWIW..................<:)
=0A
 
Kelly Troyer
"D= yke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/O= il Manifold =0A

=0A

=0A
=0A
=0AFrom:= "Rogers, Bob J." <BRogers@FDIC.gov><= BR>To: Rotary motors in air= craft <flyrotary@lanca= ironline.net>
Sent: Tue, August 17, 2010 5:20:49 PM
= Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions

=0A
= =0A
Yes, I used the Je= t-Hot 2000 coating, shown at this link. http://www.jet-hot.com/headercoatin= gs.html  I think that it is very effective to reduce heat= in the engine compartment.
=0A
 
=0A
It is only applied at the Oklahoma Cit= y facility.
=0A
 
=0A
Bob
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lanca= ironline.net] On Behalf Of = Kelly Troyer
Sent: T= uesday, August 17, 2010 3:02 PM
To:= Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions
<= /DIV>=0A
 
=0A
=0A
=0ABob,
=0A
=0A
  Did you have your turbine housing and exhau= st pipe coated with heat resistant
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=0Acoating and if so what and where ??.............
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Thanks,
 =
=0A
Kelly Troyer
"D= yke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/O= il Manifold
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<= /FONT> 
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= =0A
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From: " Rogers, B= ob J. " <BRogers@FDIC.gov>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <= flyrotary@lancaironline.n= et>
Sent: Mon, Au= gust 16, 2010 10:57:22 AM
Subject:<= /SPAN> [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions
=0A
=0AKelly,<= /DIV>=0A
 
=0A
There= is one pretty good picture of the turbo installation (before radiator baff= ling) on our EAA Chapter 1246 website at:  http://www.eaa1246.org/projectsnplanesdisplay.asp?id=3D= 10&pic=3D190. ; Because the oil drains from the turbo into a s= ump that is lower than the oil pan, I must use an electric pump to transfer= the oil back into the engine oil pan.  Attached is a view from the fr= ont, which shows the hoses and tubing from the turbo compressor to the inte= rcooler and back to the intake manifold. 
=0A
 
= =0A
Bob<= /DIV>=0A
 
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From:<= /FONT> Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Kelly Troyer
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 10:02 AM=
To: Rotary motors in ai= rcraft
Subject: [FlyRota= ry] Re: Turbo Questions
=0A
=  
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Bob,<= /SPAN>
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  = ; I am waiting on a clarification  from "Turbonetics" as to what size = turbine wheel
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would turn the least rpm as altitude increases.............I know t= he  turbine housing
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a/r ratio is a big factor effecting turbine rpm as we cl= imb but it is not clear to me
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how the turbine wheel diameter and trim factor in..= ...........Air density lessens with
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=0Aaltitude but I am not smart enough to know&nb= sp;if the larger or smaller turbine wheel
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will have the highest rpm because of this fa= ctor as we climb ??.........
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  Perhaps I am being anal about this but and you ar= e probably correct that that the
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effect of a 3mm diameter difference betwee= n the two turbine wheels is slight and
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= =0A
probably inconsequential...........If any of= our multi-talented group members would
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like to shine some light on this please jump= in here !!..........
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=0A
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  On another note do you happen to have any photos of your 13B/= turbo installation
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during construction that you would care to share with the group ??.= .........You have
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a beautiful (to Rotorheads) and well thought out installation which = from your report
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is working very well and I am sure others of the group would lik= e to plagiarize.....<:)
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Best Regards, 
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=0A
   
=0A
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"= Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
=0A<= DIV>=0A
 
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= =0A
 
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= Fro= m: " Rogers, Bob J. " <BRogers@FDIC.gov>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Fri, August 13, 2010 11:49:06 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Que= stions
=0A
=0A
Kelly,
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I do not know which wheel is in my turbo.&= nbsp; I expect the larger wheel (68 mm) to turn a little more slowly, since= it has a larger surface area to absorb the exhaust, but it should not make= much difference.  Either one should be OK.  The Turbonetics peop= le can probably explain the performance differences between the two wheel s= izes.
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=0A
Bob
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From:= Rotary motors in airc= raft [mailto:flyrotary@= lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Kelly Troyer
Sent:<= /B> Thursday, August 12, 2010 3:44 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions<= /DIV>
=0A
 
=0A
=0A=0A
Bob,
=0A
=0A  Thanks much for the info.................J= ust one more question..............Info from "Turbonetics"
says the 1.15=  a/r turbine housing is limited to the F1-65 mm or F1-68 mm turbine wh= eel.......
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=   Do you have info as to what turbine wheel was installed in your= 60-1 turbo ??..............
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Thanks Again,
=0A
=0A
 
=0A
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2<= BR>"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
=0A
=0A
 
=0A
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=0A
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=0A
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=0A
From: " Rogers, Bob J. " <BRogers@FD= IC.gov>
To: Rotar= y motors in aircraft <= flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thu, August 12, 2010 1:39:26 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions
=0A
Kelly,<= /SPAN>
=0A
 
=0A
I limit my takeoff power to no more than 42 =E2=80=9C of manifold pressure (=E2=80=9CMP=E2=80=9D), usually just 40=E2=80=9D .&nb= sp; At altitudes of 5,000 feet and above, I generally run no more than abou= t 36 =E2=80=9C MP (15 GPH) and 180 knots.  Engine RPM is about 5,800.&= nbsp; The turbo is capable of considerably more boost than this, but I have= to watch engine water and oil temps at higher power settings.  I do n= ot want to run more than 200 degrees on oil or water and prefer 180 degrees= .  I can maintain these temps (even on hot days) with cowl flap settin= gs from closed to full open as long as I keep the power settings at or belo= w those described above.  One day, I climbed to 11,000 feet and my GPS= groundspeed (with a slight tailwind) was 213 knots.  MP was 36=E2=80= =9D, RPM 6,000.  I have a 68=E2=80=9D diameter x 84 pitch Prince P-tip fixed pitch prop coupled to the RWS 2.17/1 reduction unit.=0A
=  
=0A
Bob


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