X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from imr-da03.mx.aol.com ([205.188.105.145] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.8) with ESMTP id 4444138 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 26 Aug 2010 01:30:32 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.188.105.145; envelope-from=SHIPCHIEF@aol.com Received: from imo-ma03.mx.aol.com (imo-ma03.mx.aol.com [64.12.78.138]) by imr-da03.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id o7Q5TjtZ012082 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 2010 01:29:45 -0400 Received: from SHIPCHIEF@aol.com by imo-ma03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v42.9.) id q.efb.4db333a (37134) for ; Thu, 26 Aug 2010 01:29:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtprly-mb03.mx.aol.com (smtprly-mb03.mx.aol.com [64.12.207.150]) by cia-ma02.mx.aol.com (v129.4) with ESMTP id MAILCIAMA028-5c6f4c75fbc211f; Thu, 26 Aug 2010 01:29:40 -0400 Received: from webmail-m077 (webmail-m077.sim.aol.com [64.12.141.35]) by smtprly-mb03.mx.aol.com (v129.4) with ESMTP id MAILSMTPRLYMB035-5c6f4c75fbc211f; Thu, 26 Aug 2010 01:29:38 -0400 References: To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 01:29:38 -0400 X-AOL-IP: 24.19.204.151 In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: shipchief@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CD12F6CFC6803D_774_C234_webmail-m077.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 32447-STANDARD Received: from 24.19.204.151 by webmail-m077.sysops.aol.com (64.12.141.35) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Thu, 26 Aug 2010 01:29:38 -0400 Message-Id: <8CD12F6CFB837F7-774-8E9D@webmail-m077.sysops.aol.com> X-Spam-Flag:NO X-AOL-SENDER: SHIPCHIEF@aol.com ----------MB_8CD12F6CFC6803D_774_C234_webmail-m077.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Thanks Dave and all! I think I'm on the right track. After I redesigned the cooling system, and= added an oil restrictor to the turbo, things have been much better. The= EC-2 responds according to Tracy's manual, especially after I cleared the= oil out of the manifold pressure sense lines.=20 I still don't have a duct in the left cowl cheek. This is going to take so= me thinking, because it needs to supply engine combustion air, surface coo= ling air for the engine compartment, and a cool air blast tube for the inj= ectors, which are fairly close to the exhaust. I like the idea of upgrading to a stainless steel radiant heat shield for= the exhaust header, which might glow a bright yellow under full climb pow= er. Kelly; thanks for the pic of the turbo housing, it looks just like mine!= I'm sure it would be a quick n' easy job to switch it out if it comes to= that. I know pictures of my 'engine room' look a mess, but it's actually fairly= modular. Peeling off the layers isn't to time consuming. Today was a milestone for me....the wings were moved from the building roo= m in the house, and set next to the fuselage in the garage! YAWN, you say? I know it's not "Rotary" but it's a big deal for me.=20 Scott -----Original Message----- From: David Leonard To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Wed, Aug 25, 2010 9:37 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions I don't particularly worry about temps after shut down. The reflective co= ating on the inside of the cowl in the hot areas is all that seems to be= needed. I use regular aluminum foil attached with spray adhesive. I try= to park into the wind if possible, but don't really worry about it. The= cowl does get quite hot to the touch, but seems to be able to handle the= heat. Your results may vary depending on installation and heat load (mas= s of exhaust metal). =20 Radiant heat during flight is a different matter and needs to be thought= of separately. this is the shielding of the components (like mount) that= get close to exhaust system. aluminum works well as long as it is more= than 1/4 inch or so away but be aware that if the exhaust should spring= a leak, the aluminum will melt pronto while SS will hold up. =20 One of the nice things for me, using the stock housing and manifold, is th= at I can use the stock heat shields that hold up well, fit perfect, and ar= e dirt cheap. =20 I used to wrap my exhaust pipe with the extra tough 2000 deg wrap but it= would only last 100 hrs or so. the other stuff not as well. didn't seem= to make much difference so i stopped using it. Most of that wraping/fibe= r/weave/cloth stuff is junk. Be careful if you use it for anything import= ant.. may even be a fire risk. nowadays,besides the stock heat shielding, I put aluminum or SS heat shiel= ds over the things that need to be protected and leave the hot stuff alone= . Hope that helps Dave Leonard On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 10:25 PM, wrote: ANOTHER TURBO QUESTION: What about turbo insulation. Dave Leonard, you mentioned it before, and I= listened. Now I'm ground running (3 hours!!) and under cowl temps after= shutdown seem high. I have the Van's foil sheeting on the inside of the= cowl anywhere near the turbo, a sewn insulation cover for the turbo that= Dave said would be insufficient, and some kevlar-like welder's drop cloth= in a single wrap around the turbo down pipe. The turbo header is bare wit= h an aluminum heat shield to keep direct radiant heat off the motor mount= and lower intake manifold. I'm afraid to insulate the header,as rotary ex= haust temps are challenging to 321 stainless steel.=20 Right now, I open the oil door to let heat out after ground runs, and befo= re addition of the foil, I used to run the shop vac discharge hose in the= cowl to move some air too. I need a solution that would allow flying to= another destination, not just back to my hanger where a fan can cool the= under-cowl area so the fiberglass doesn't melt. Any practical advise? -----Original Message----- From: Kelly Troyer To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:10 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions The only possible downside I can see is turbine over-speed at altitude..= .......Part of this equation is based on what rpm your engine will be turning at takeoff and cruise, th= e altitudes you fly and=20 the psru ratio you have (2.17 or 2.85) with the 2.85 probably averaging 60= 0 to 1000 rpm higher=20 for both takeoff and cruise (fuel flow concerns may also be a personal fac= tor)..........Also your prop is a factor depending if it is fixed pitch or constant speed (or in-flight= adjust such as my "IVO")....... =20 With an adjustable pitch prop you can load the engine at a lower rpm an= d control turbo boost with the throttle while being careful to avoid detonation.........The bott= om line is only flight testing=20 can determine exactly how your turbo will perform in your particular insta= llation..............Should=20 your .81 a/r ratio turbine housing be a little too tight a .96 a/r ratio= "On Center" housing to fit your=20 "P" trim (F1-65mm) turbine wheel is readily available for less than $300.0= 0 and the .96 housing is working well for John Slade and his "IVO" equipped "Cosy" ............=20 =20 Let the group know how all is working once you get her in the air !!....= .........FWIW =20 Kelly Troyer "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 From: "shipchief@aol.com" To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Wed, August 18, 2010 6:46:46 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions Correction!!! I just checked my aircraft manual, and the Turbo has a .81 AR. That's pret= ty tight for this group discussion. I guess we will see what happens as I= run my engine at higher power. -----Original Message----- From: shipchief@aol.com To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 3:49 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions George Kelly and all; I've been off the list for a while (work) but today I safety wired the wat= er pump pulley bolts, as discussed in 'one thing leads to another'. Then I ran my engine for 40 minutes @ 1900 RPM. The low voltage that alert= ed me to the pully bolts was still with me, so I ran the engine with the= upper cowl off, and climbed out of the cockpit to have a look.=20 I always sat in the plane while running it before, so this was pretty info= rmative. I ran it for a while, more than 20 minutes watching the battery= voltage slowly drop to 11.9 volts, still the engine ran sweet. I checked= alternator output; it was just battery voltage, so nothing. I hooked up= a battery charger and kept running so I could watch the belt, feel the in= take manifold and turbo etc. and look for problem areas. I'm feeling good= about my installation becuase it looks fairly neat and runs smooth and sw= eet. I'm beginning to feel that this is going to be a success story. wink,= wink, Tracy. I just need to finish the airplane ;) About the Turbo: I'm running a 60-1 P trim compressor and .97 AR On-Center TO-4 turbine hou= sing ( if I recall correctly) with a water cooled bearing. I built the exh= aust manifold simply because the Fred Brease mount I bought would not acco= modate the cast iron Mazda Turbo manifold. I selected the On-Center turbi= ne because I wanted the design flexibility it offered, and in fact I was= able to mount the turbo with the exhaust oulet facing aft. The down pipe= is very short, the intake filter is directly on the turbo compressor, and= to finally get to my point, my turbo is direct mounted to the engine with= a very short but somewhat large volume 321 stainless manifold.=20 I decided to give up all the waste gates, blow off valves, remote mounts,= flex joints, etc. and followed Kelly Johnson's addage: "Add Lightness and= Simplicate". I installed the battery in the back of my RV-8 because RV-8's with Lycomin= g IO-360 & constant speed props need to do this for CG reasons. I couldn't= imagine my 13BT being lighter. Still, lightness is required, so I work at= it. All those accoutraments have there place, and maybe I will end up nee= ding some or all of them, but I decided to start with none of them and go= forth. I'll add what ever I end up needing. My turbo air pipe is somewhat long, but it does pass by the left side of= the cowl where I could mount an intercooler with air exit, so I have that= as a possibility. If I need a waste gate, I'll just cut a hole in the exh= aust manifold and TIG weld in a bypass pipe with or without some kind of= valve....I have a spot in mind for that too. I may be over thinking this whole thing, and that is part of why I build= so slowly. But I do have 2.5 hours on the EM-2 hobbs meter!!=20 -----Original Message----- From: George Lendich To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 2:03 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions Kelly, Let us all know how well it goes for you in the real world application. I= can't help but feel we are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole wit= h Turbo application to Aviation needs. =20 Personally for myself, as I have stated before, I feel that I would use re= mote mounted turbo, like some cars use (to reduce the heat and flow speed= to the turbo) and feed it from a bypass off the exhaust pipe. The by-pass= could be controlled manually, for (when required) application. A wastegat= e does the same thing but the exhaust is taken right up to the turbo and= carries the heat with it. I think this would go a long way in controlling= heat and over spinning issues. =20 However you need the necessary room to make this possible. George (down under) Bob, John and All, =20 Well I have bit the bullet and made my decision for a turbo..........= ..After much research, talking to Bob=20 and John and conferring with a "Turbonetics" dealer I have ordered a TO4E-= 50 trim (compressor wheel),=20 wet bearing housing, big shaft "Q" trim (F1-68mm) turbine wheel and 1.15= a/r ratio turbine housing......... =20 The decision what size turbine wheel and a/r ratio housing was based= on the fact that the f1-68mm turbine and 1.15 a/r housing causes less exhaust back pressure than the sm= aller wheel (bigger hole) and will increase rpm less as you increase altitude as opposed to the F1-65mm= wheel plus the 1.15 a/r ratio housing will slow rpm increase for the same reason............ =20 The decision to go with the 50 trim compressor wheel (Like John) verse= s the 60-1 wheel (Like Bob) was=20 based the "Flow Maps" of both wheels and my uneducated opinion that the 50= trim wheel would be running=20 in a more efficient area of the flow map base on the "Air Consumption Char= t" (lbs per min) of the 1.3L 13B=20 that I submitted to the group in a previous post.............Of course for= all practical purposes there is probably little discernible difference between any of these turbo configurations me= ntioned............. =20 At least I have livened up the forum for a while !!............FWIW....= ..............<:) =20 Kelly Troyer "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 From: "Rogers, Bob J." To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Tue, August 17, 2010 5:20:49 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions Yes, I used the Jet-Hot 2000 coating, shown at this link. http://www.jet-h= ot.com/headercoatings.html I think that it is very effective to reduce he= at in the engine compartment. =20 It is only applied at the Oklahoma City facility. =20 Bob From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Be= half Of Kelly Troyer Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 3:02 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions =20 Bob, Did you have your turbine housing and exhaust pipe coated with heat resi= stant coating and if so what and where ??............. =20 Thanks, =20 Kelly Troyer "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 =20 =20 From: " Rogers, Bob J. " To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Mon, August 16, 2010 10:57:22 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions Kelly, =20 There is one pretty good picture of the turbo installation (before radiato= r baffling) on our EAA Chapter 1246 website at: http://www.eaa1246.org/pr= ojectsnplanesdisplay.asp?id=3D10&pic=3D190. ; Because the oil drains from= the turbo into a sump that is lower than the oil pan, I must use an elect= ric pump to transfer the oil back into the engine oil pan. Attached is a= view from the front, which shows the hoses and tubing from the turbo comp= ressor to the intercooler and back to the intake manifold. =20 =20 Bob =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Be= half Of Kelly Troyer Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 10:02 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions =20 Bob, I am waiting on a clarification from "Turbonetics" as to what size tur= bine wheel would turn the least rpm as altitude increases.............I know the tur= bine housing a/r ratio is a big factor effecting turbine rpm as we climb but it is not= clear to me how the turbine wheel diameter and trim factor in.............Air density= lessens with altitude but I am not smart enough to know if the larger or smaller turbin= e wheel will have the highest rpm because of this factor as we climb ??......... =20 Perhaps I am being anal about this but and you are probably correct that= that the=20 effect of a 3mm diameter difference between the two turbine wheels is slig= ht and=20 probably inconsequential...........If any of our multi-talented group memb= ers would=20 like to shine some light on this please jump in here !!.......... =20 On another note do you happen to have any photos of your 13B/turbo insta= llation during construction that you would care to share with the group ??........= ..You have a beautiful (to Rotorheads) and well thought out installation which from= your report is working very well and I am sure others of the group would like to plagi= arize.....<:) =20 Best Regards,=20 =20 Kelly Troyer "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 =20 =20 From: " Rogers, Bob J. " To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Fri, August 13, 2010 11:49:06 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions Kelly,=20 =20 I do not know which wheel is in my turbo. I expect the larger wheel (68= mm) to turn a little more slowly, since it has a larger surface area to= absorb the exhaust, but it should not make much difference. Either one= should be OK. The Turbonetics people can probably explain the performanc= e differences between the two wheel sizes. =20 Bob =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Be= half Of Kelly Troyer Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 3:44 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions =20 Bob, Thanks much for the info.................Just one more question.........= .....Info from "Turbonetics" says the 1.15 a/r turbine housing is limited to the F1-65 mm or F1-68 mm= turbine wheel....... Do you have info as to what turbine wheel was installed in your 60-1 tur= bo ??.............. =20 Thanks Again, =20 Kelly Troyer "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 =20 =20 From: " Rogers, Bob J. " To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Thu, August 12, 2010 1:39:26 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions Kelly, =20 I limit my takeoff power to no more than 42 =E2=80=9C of manifold pressure= (=E2=80=9CMP=E2=80=9D), usually just 40=E2=80=9D . At altitudes of 5,000= feet and above, I generally run no more than about 36 =E2=80=9C MP (15 GP= H) and 180 knots. Engine RPM is about 5,800. The turbo is capable of con= siderably more boost than this, but I have to watch engine water and oil= temps at higher power settings. I do not want to run more than 200 degre= es on oil or water and prefer 180 degrees. I can maintain these temps (ev= en on hot days) with cowl flap settings from closed to full open as long= as I keep the power settings at or below those described above. One day,= I climbed to 11,000 feet and my GPS groundspeed (with a slight tailwind)= was 213 knots. MP was 36=E2=80=9D, RPM 6,000. I have a 68=E2=80=9D diam= eter x 84 pitch Prince P-tip fixed pitch prop coupled to the RWS 2.17/1 re= duction unit. =20 Bob ----------MB_8CD12F6CFC6803D_774_C234_webmail-m077.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"
Thanks Dave and all!
I think I'm on the right track. After I redesigned the cooling system= , and added an oil restrictor to the turbo, things have been much better.= The EC-2 responds according to Tracy's manual, especially after I cleared= the oil out of the manifold pressure sense lines.
I still don't have a duct in the left cowl cheek. This is going to ta= ke some thinking, because it needs to supply engine combustion air, surfac= e cooling air for the engine compartment, and a cool air blast tube= for the injectors, which are fairly close to the exhaust.
I like the idea of upgrading to a stainless steel radiant heat shield= for the exhaust header, which might glow a bright yellow under full climb= power.
Kelly; thanks for the pic of the turbo housing, it looks just like mi= ne! I'm sure it would be a quick n' easy job to switch it out if it comes= to that.
I know pictures of my 'engine room' look a mess, but it's actually fa= irly modular. Peeling off the layers isn't to time consuming.
Today was a milestone for me....the wings were moved from the buildin= g room in the house, and set next to the fuselage in the garage!
YAWN, you say? I know it's not "Rotary" but it's a big deal for me.= 3D:-)
Scott
-----Original Message-----
From: David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wed, Aug 25, 2010 9:37 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions

I don't particularly worry about temps after shut down.  The ref= lective coating on the inside of the cowl in the hot areas is all that see= ms to be needed. I use regular aluminum foil attached with spray adhesive.=   I try to park into the wind if possible, but don't really worry abo= ut it.  The cowl does get quite hot to the touch, but seems to be abl= e to handle the heat.  Your results may vary depending on installatio= n and heat load (mass of exhaust metal).
 
Radiant heat during flight is a different matter and needs to be thou= ght of separately.  this is the shielding of the components (like mou= nt) that get close to exhaust system.  aluminum works well as long as= it is more than 1/4 inch or so away but be aware that if the exhaust shou= ld spring a leak, the aluminum will melt pronto while SS will hold up.&nbs= p;

One of the nice things for me, using the stock housing and manifold, is th= at I can use the stock heat shields that hold up well, fit perfect, and ar= e dirt cheap. 

I used to wrap my exhaust pipe with the extra tough 2000 deg wrap but it= would only last 100 hrs or so.  the other stuff not as well. = didn't seem to make much difference so i stopped using it.  Most of= that wraping/fiber/weave/cloth stuff is junk.  Be careful if you use= it for anything important.. may even be a fire risk.

nowadays,besides the stock heat shielding, I put aluminum or SS heat shiel= ds over the things that need to be protected and leave the hot stuff alone= .

Hope that helps

Dave Leonard

On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 10:25 PM, <shipchief@aol.com>= wrote:
ANOTHER TURBO QUESTION:
What about turbo insulation. Dave Leonard, you mentioned it before,= and I listened. Now I'm ground running (3 hours!!) and under cowl temps= after shutdown seem high. I have the Van's foil sheeting on the inside of= the cowl anywhere near the turbo, a sewn insulation cover for the turbo= that Dave said would be insufficient, and some kevlar-like welder's drop= cloth in a single wrap around the turbo down pipe. The turbo header is ba= re with an aluminum heat shield to keep direct radiant heat off the motor= mount and lower intake manifold. I'm afraid to insulate the header,as&nbs= p;rotary exhaust temps are challenging to 321 stainless steel.
Right now, I open the oil door to let heat out after ground runs, and= before addition of the foil, I used to run the shop vac discharge hose in= the cowl to move some air too. I need a solution that would allow flying= to another destination, not just back to my hanger where a fan can cool= the under-cowl area so the fiberglass doesn't melt.
Any practical advise?


Sent: Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:10 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions

  The only possible downside I can see is turbine over-spee= d at altitude.........Part of this equation
is based on what rpm your engine will be turning at takeoff and= cruise, the altitudes you fly and
the psru ratio you have (2.17 or 2.85) with the 2.85 probably averagi= ng 600 to 1000 rpm higher 
for both takeoff and cruise (fuel flow concerns may also be a pe= rsonal factor)..........Also your prop
is a factor depending if it is fixed pitch or constant speed (or in-f= light adjust such as my "IVO").......
 
   With an adjustable pitch prop you can load the engine at= a lower rpm and control turbo boost
with the throttle while being careful to avoid detonation.........The= bottom line is only flight testing
can determine exactly how your turbo will perform in your particular= installation..............Should
your .81 a/r ratio turbine housing be a little too tight a .96 a/r ra= tio "On Center" housing to fit your
"P" trim (F1-65mm) turbine wheel is readily available for less than= $300.00 and the .96 housing is
 working well for John Slade and his "IVO" equipped "C= osy" ............ 
 
  Let the group know how all is working once you get her in the= air !!.............FWIW
 
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20

From: "shipchief@aol.com" <shipchief@aol.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft <flyrotary@lancairon= line.net>
Sent: Wed, August 18, 2010= 6:46:46 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re:= Turbo Questions

Correction!!!
I just checked my aircraft manual, and the Turbo has a .81 AR. That's= pretty tight for this group discussion. I guess we will see what happens= as I run my engine at higher power.



-----Original Message-----
From: shipchief@aol.com
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 3:49 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions

George Kelly and all;
I've been off the list for a while (work) but today I safety wired th= e water pump pulley bolts, as discussed in  'one thing leads to anoth= er'.
Then I ran my engine for 40 minutes @ 1900 RPM. The low voltage that= alerted me to the pully bolts was still with me, so I ran the engine with= the upper cowl off, and climbed out of the cockpit to have a look.
I always sat in the plane while running it before, so this was pretty= informative. I ran it for a while, more than 20 minutes watching the batt= ery voltage slowly drop to 11.9 volts, still the engine ran sweet. I= checked alternator output; it was just battery voltage, so nothing. I hoo= ked up a battery charger and kept running so I could watch the belt, feel= the intake manifold and turbo etc. and look for problem areas. I'm feelin= g good about my installation becuase it looks fairly neat and runs smooth= and sweet. I'm beginning to feel that this is going to be a success story= . wink, wink, Tracy. I just need to finish the airplane ;)
About the Turbo:
I'm running a 60-1 P trim compressor and .97 AR On-Center TO-4= turbine housing ( if I recall correctly) with a water cooled be= aring. I built the exhaust manifold simply because the Fred Brease mount= I bought would not accomodate the cast iron Mazda Turbo manifol= d.  I selected the On-Center turbine because I wanted the design flex= ibility it offered, and in fact I was able to mount the turbo with the exh= aust oulet facing aft. The down pipe is very short, the intake filter is= directly on the turbo compressor, and to finally get to my point, my turb= o is direct mounted to the engine with a very short but somewhat large vol= ume 321 stainless manifold.
I decided to give up all the waste gates, blow off valves, remote mou= nts, flex joints, etc. and followed Kelly Johnson's addage: "Add Lightness= and Simplicate".
I installed the battery in the back of my RV-8 because RV-8's with Ly= coming IO-360 & constant speed props need to do this for CG reaso= ns. I couldn't imagine my 13BT being lighter. Still, lightness is req= uired, so I work at it. All those accoutraments have there place= , and maybe I will end up needing some or all of them, but I decided to st= art with none of them and go forth. I'll add what ever I end up needing.
My turbo air pipe is somewhat long, but it does pass by the left side= of the cowl where I could mount an intercooler with air exit, so I have= that as a possibility. If I need a waste gate, I'll just cut a hole in th= e exhaust manifold and TIG weld in a bypass pipe with or without some kind= of valve....I have a spot in mind for that too.
I may be over thinking this whole thing, and that is part of why I bu= ild so slowly.
But I do have 2.5 hours on the EM-2 hobbs meter!!



-----Original Message-----
From: George Lendich <lendich@aanet.com.au>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 2:03 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions

 Kelly,
Let us all know how well it goes for you= in the real world application. I can't help but feel we are trying to fit= a square peg in a round hole with Turbo application to Aviation needs.
 
Personally for myself, as I have stated= before, I feel that I would use remote mounted turbo, like some cars = ;use (to reduce the heat and flow speed to the turbo) and feed it from a= bypass off the exhaust pipe. The by-pass could be controlled manually, fo= r (when required) application. A wastegate does the same thing but th= e exhaust is taken right up to the turbo and carries the heat with it. I= think this would go a long way in controlling heat and over spinning issu= es.
 
However you need the necessary room to ma= ke this possible.
George (down under)
Bob, John and All,
 
     Well I have bit the bullet and made my= decision for a turbo............After much research, talking to Bob
and John and conferring with a "Turbonetics" dealer I have order= ed a TO4E-50 trim (compressor wheel),
wet bearing housing, big shaft "Q" trim (F1-68mm) turbine wheel and&n= bsp;1.15 a/r ratio turbine housing.........
 
     The decision what size turbine wheel an= d a/r ratio housing was based on the fact that the f1-68mm
turbine and 1.15 a/r housing causes less exhaust back pressure than= the smaller wheel (bigger hole) and
will increase rpm less as you increase altitude as opposed to th= e F1-65mm wheel plus the 1.15 a/r ratio
housing will slow rpm increase for the same reason............
 
    The decision to go with the 50 trim compressor whe= el (Like John) verses the 60-1 wheel (Like Bob) was
based the "Flow Maps" of both wheels and my uneducated= opinion that the 50 trim wheel would be running
in a more efficient area of the flow map base on the "Air Consumption= Chart" (lbs per min) of the 1.3L 13B
that I submitted to the group in a previous post.............Of cours= e for all practical purposes there is probably
little discernible difference between any of these turbo configu= rations mentioned.............
 
   At least I have livened up the forum for a while !!.....= .......FWIW..................<:)
 
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20

From: "Rogers, Bob J." <= ;BRogers@FDIC.gov&g= t;
To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft <flyr= otary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Tue, August 17, 2010= 5:20:49 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re:= Turbo Questions

Yes, I used the Jet= -Hot 2000 coating, shown at this link. http://www.jet-hot.com/headercoatings.= html  I think that it is very effective to reduce he= at in the engine compartment.
 = ;
It is only applied= at the Oklahoma City facility.
 = ;
Bob
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Kelly Troyer
Sent: Tuesday, August 17,= 2010 3:02 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re:= Turbo Questions
 
Bob,
  Did you have your turbine housing = ;and exhaust pipe coated with heat resistant
coating and if so what and where ??..........= ...
 
Thanks,
 
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
 
 
From: " Rogers, Bob J. " <BRogers@FDIC.gov>
To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft <flyr= otary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Mon, August 16, 2010= 10:57:22 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re:= Turbo Questions
Kelly,
 = ;
There is one pretty= good picture of the turbo installation (before radiator baffling) on our= EAA Chapter 1246 website at:  http://www.eaa1246.org/projectsnplanesdisplay.asp?id=3D10&pi= c=3D190. ; Because the oil drains from the turbo into a sump that= is lower than the oil pan, I must use an electric pump to transfer the oi= l back into the engine oil pan.  Attached is a view from the front,= which shows the hoses and tubing from the turbo compressor to the interco= oler and back to the intake manifold. 
 = ;
Bob
 = ;
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Kelly Troyer
Sent: Monday, August 16,= 2010 10:02 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re:= Turbo Questions
 
Bob,
   I am waiting on a clarification&= nbsp; from "Turbonetics" as to what size turbine wheel
would turn the least rpm as altitude inc= reases.............I know the  turbine housing
a/r ratio is a big factor effecting turbine= rpm as we climb but it is not clear to me
how the turbine wheel diameter and trim= factor in.............Air density lessens with
altitude but I am not smart enough to kn= ow if the larger or smaller turbine wheel
will have the highest rpm because of this fac= tor as we climb ??.........
 
  Perhaps I am being anal about this but= and you are probably correct that that the
effect of a 3mm diameter difference= between the two turbine wheels is slight and
probably inconsequential...........If any of= our multi-talented group members would
like to shine some light on this please jump= in here !!..........
 
  On another note do you happen to have= any photos of your 13B/turbo installation
during construction that you would care to sh= are with the group ??..........You have
a beautiful (to Rotorheads) and well thought= out installation which from your report
is working very well and I am sure other= s of the group would like to plagiarize.....<:)
 
Best Regards, 
   
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_1= 3B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2= /EM2
"Mistral"_Back= plate/Oil Manifold
 
 
From: " Rogers, Bob J. " <BRogers@FDIC.gov>
To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft <flyr= otary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Fri, August 13, 2010= 11:49:06 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re:= Turbo Questions
Kelly,
 = ;
I do not know which= wheel is in my turbo.  I expect the larger wheel (68 mm) to turn a= little more slowly, since it has a larger surface area to absorb the exha= ust, but it should not make much difference.  Either one should be OK= .  The Turbonetics people can probably explain the performance differ= ences between the two wheel sizes.
 = ;
Bob
 = ;
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Kelly Troyer
Sent: Thursday, August 12,= 2010 3:44 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re:= Turbo Questions
 
Bob,
  Thanks much for the info..............= ...Just one more question..............Info from "Turbonetics"
says the 1.15 a/r turbine housing is limited to the F1-65 mm or F1-68= mm turbine wheel.......
  Do you have info as to what turbi= ne wheel was installed in your 60-1 turbo ??..............
 
Thanks Again,
 
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
 
 
From: " Rogers, Bob J. " <BRogers@FDIC.gov>
To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft <flyr= otary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thu, August 12, 2010= 1:39:26 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re:= Turbo Questions
Kelly,
 = ;
I limit my takeoff= power to no more than 42 =E2=80=9C of manifold pressure (=E2= =80=9CMP=E2=80=9D), usually just 40=E2=80=9D .  At altitudes of 5,000= feet and above, I generally run no more than about 36 =E2=80=9C MP (15 GP= H) and 180 knots.  Engine RPM is about 5,800.  The turbo is capa= ble of considerably more boost than this, but I have to watch engine water= and oil temps at higher power settings.  I do not want to run more= than 200 degrees on oil or water and prefer 180 degrees.  I can main= tain these temps (even on hot days) with cowl flap settings from closed to= full open as long as I keep the power settings at or below those describe= d above.  One day, I climbed to 11,000 feet and my GPS groundspeed (w= ith a slight tailwind) was 213 knots.  MP was 36=E2=80=9D, RPM 6,000.=   I have a 68=E2=80=9D diameter x 84 pitch Prince P-tip fixed pitch= prop coupled to the RWS 2.17/1 reduction unit.
 = ;
Bob


----------MB_8CD12F6CFC6803D_774_C234_webmail-m077.sysops.aol.com--