X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-iw0-f180.google.com ([209.85.214.180] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.8) with ESMTP id 4444063 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 26 Aug 2010 00:38:20 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.214.180; envelope-from=wdleonard@gmail.com Received: by iwn6 with SMTP id 6so1317409iwn.25 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 21:37:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=N8A/+p7ZkvNbGXGC5BqPxba5R63tF2jEEDkj7WAfjMU=; b=UwU6VmnynVAq0zuBDvI4MKJLXt4VnAMlUhlHcWR+OK6pygfpHHirwxKHLA8XuX5n2M mHb1wkk5cb23RiAeWTpUYAOvh6vzpXJnVkdFfnI+e9EJdlhO/PedO5HDVyxSm/t9PQjP bmWNg4l0tksVwajF420/lloSw7/Mgh5DlNmEI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=tb10R6QN5Box7GL26E4v1t0RjrHezTf84uJkWyPANWy6iJ47daN9YZEqYJ9NWOHtbC 9HAKlXWRKkQBldSxPBSMXtwoFgF/otFvUZTTyb3m/wvzriZXGpIhpohKEudVGox09d1l 05Y5po7ejPQpxlTBPjFL4RrTDNjYIflKM+A54= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.30.130 with SMTP id u2mr11518088ibc.111.1282797465274; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 21:37:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.158.72 with HTTP; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 21:37:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 21:37:45 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions From: David Leonard To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00221538fcd23c8f7b048eb28f71 --00221538fcd23c8f7b048eb28f71 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't particularly worry about temps after shut down. The reflective coating on the inside of the cowl in the hot areas is all that seems to be needed. I use regular aluminum foil attached with spray adhesive. I try to park into the wind if possible, but don't really worry about it. The cowl does get quite hot to the touch, but seems to be able to handle the heat. Your results may vary depending on installation and heat load (mass of exhaust metal). Radiant heat during flight is a different matter and needs to be thought of separately. this is the shielding of the components (like mount) that get close to exhaust system. aluminum works well as long as it is more than 1/= 4 inch or so away but be aware that if the exhaust should spring a leak, the aluminum will melt pronto while SS will hold up. One of the nice things for me, using the stock housing and manifold, is tha= t I can use the stock heat shields that hold up well, fit perfect, and are dirt cheap. I used to wrap my exhaust pipe with the extra tough 2000 deg wrap but it would only last 100 hrs or so. the other stuff not as well. didn't seem t= o make much difference so i stopped using it. Most of that wraping/fiber/weave/cloth stuff is junk. Be careful if you use it for anything important.. may even be a fire risk. nowadays,besides the stock heat shielding, I put aluminum or SS heat shield= s over the things that need to be protected and leave the hot stuff alone. Hope that helps Dave Leonard On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 10:25 PM, wrote: > *ANOTHER TURBO QUESTION:* > What about turbo insulation. Dave Leonard, you mentioned it before, and I > listened. Now I'm ground running (3 hours!!) and under cowl temps after > shutdown seem high. I have the Van's foil sheeting on the inside of the c= owl > anywhere near the turbo, a sewn insulation cover for the turbo that Dave > said would be insufficient, and some kevlar-like welder's drop cloth in a > single wrap around the turbo down pipe. The turbo header is bare with an > aluminum heat shield to keep direct radiant heat off the motor mount and > lower intake manifold. I'm afraid to insulate the header,as rotary exhaus= t > temps are challenging to 321 stainless steel. > Right now, I open the oil door to let heat out after ground runs, and > before addition of the foil, I used to run the shop vac discharge hose in > the cowl to move some air too. I need a solution that would allow flying = to > another destination, not just back to my hanger where a fan can cool the > under-cowl area so the fiberglass doesn't melt. > Any practical advise? > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kelly Troyer > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:10 am > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions > > The only possible downside I can see is turbine over-speed at > altitude.........Part of this equation > is based on what rpm your engine will be turning at takeoff and cruise, t= he > altitudes you fly and > the psru ratio you have (2.17 or 2.85) with the 2.85 probably averaging 6= 00 > to 1000 rpm higher > for both takeoff and cruise (fuel flow concerns may also be a personal > factor)..........Also your prop > is a factor depending if it is fixed pitch or constant speed (or in-fligh= t > adjust such as my "IVO")....... > > With an adjustable pitch prop you can load the engine at a lower rpm a= nd > control turbo boost > with the throttle while being careful to avoid detonation.........The > bottom line is only flight testing > can determine exactly how your turbo will perform in your particular > installation..............Should > your .81 a/r ratio turbine housing be a little too tight a .96 a/r ratio > "On Center" housing to fit your > "P" trim (F1-65mm) turbine wheel is readily available for less than $300.= 00 > and the .96 housing is > working well for John Slade and his "IVO" equipped "Cosy" ............ > > Let the group know how all is working once you get her in the air > !!.............FWIW > > Kelly Troyer > "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine > "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 > "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* "shipchief@aol.com" > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Wed, August 18, 2010 6:46:46 PM > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions > > Correction!!! > I just checked my aircraft manual, and the Turbo has a .81 AR. That's > pretty tight for this group discussion. I guess we will see what happens = as > I run my engine at higher power. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: shipchief@aol.com > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 3:49 pm > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions > > George Kelly and all; > I've been off the list for a while (work) but today I safety wired the > water pump pulley bolts, as discussed in 'one thing leads to another'. > Then I ran my engine for 40 minutes @ 1900 RPM. The low voltage that > alerted me to the pully bolts was still with me, so I ran the engine with > the upper cowl off, and climbed out of the cockpit to have a look. > I always sat in the plane while running it before, so this was pretty > informative. I ran it for a while, more than 20 minutes watching the batt= ery > voltage slowly drop to 11.9 volts, still the engine ran sweet. I checked > alternator output; it was just battery voltage, so nothing. I hooked up a > battery charger and kept running so I could watch the belt, feel the inta= ke > manifold and turbo etc. and look for problem areas. I'm feeling good abou= t > my installation becuase it looks fairly neat and runs smooth and sweet. I= 'm > beginning to feel that this is going to be a success story. wink, wink, > Tracy. I just need to finish the airplane ;) > About the Turbo: > I'm running a 60-1 P trim compressor and .97 AR On-Center TO-4 > turbine housing ( if I recall correctly) with a water cooled bearing. I > built the exhaust manifold simply because the Fred Brease mount I bought > would not accomodate the cast iron Mazda Turbo manifold. I selected the > On-Center turbine because I wanted the design flexibility it offered, and= in > fact I was able to mount the turbo with the exhaust oulet facing aft. The > down pipe is very short, the intake filter is directly on the turbo > compressor, and to finally get to my point, my turbo is direct mounted to > the engine with a very short but somewhat large volume 321 stainless > manifold. > I decided to give up all the waste gates, blow off valves, remote mounts, > flex joints, etc. and followed Kelly Johnson's addage: "Add Lightness and > Simplicate". > I installed the battery in the back of my RV-8 because RV-8's with Lycomi= ng > IO-360 & constant speed props need to do this for CG reasons. I couldn't > imagine my 13BT being lighter. Still, lightness is required, so I work at > it. All those accoutraments have there place, and maybe I will end up > needing some or all of them, but I decided to start with none of them and= go > forth. I'll add what ever I end up needing. > My turbo air pipe is somewhat long, but it does pass by the left side of > the cowl where I could mount an intercooler with air exit, so I have that= as > a possibility. If I need a waste gate, I'll just cut a hole in the exhaus= t > manifold and TIG weld in a bypass pipe with or without some kind of > valve....I have a spot in mind for that too. > I may be over thinking this whole thing, and that is part of why I build = so > slowly. > But I do have 2.5 hours on the EM-2 hobbs meter!! > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: George Lendich > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 2:03 pm > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions > > Kelly, > Let us all know how well it goes for you in the real world application. I > can't help but feel we are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole wit= h > Turbo application to Aviation needs. > > Personally for myself, as I have stated before, I feel that I would use > remote mounted turbo, like some cars use (to reduce the heat and flow spe= ed > to the turbo) and feed it from a bypass off the exhaust pipe. The by-pass > could be controlled manually, for (when required) application. A wastegat= e > does the same thing but the exhaust is taken right up to the turbo and > carries the heat with it. I think this would go a long way in controlling > heat and over spinning issues. > > However you need the necessary room to make this possible. > George (down under) > > Bob, John and All, > > Well I have bit the bullet and made my decision for a > turbo............After much research, talking to Bob > and John and conferring with a "Turbonetics" dealer I have ordered a > TO4E-50 trim (compressor wheel), > wet bearing housing, big shaft "Q" trim (F1-68mm) turbine wheel and 1.15 > a/r ratio turbine housing......... > > The decision what size turbine wheel and a/r ratio housing was based > on the fact that the f1-68mm > turbine and 1.15 a/r housing causes less exhaust back pressure than the > smaller wheel (bigger hole) and > will increase rpm less as you increase altitude as opposed to the F1-65mm > wheel plus the 1.15 a/r ratio > housing will slow rpm increase for the same reason............ > > The decision to go with the 50 trim compressor wheel (Like John) vers= es > the 60-1 wheel (Like Bob) was > based the "Flow Maps" of both wheels and my uneducated opinion that the 5= 0 > trim wheel would be running > in a more efficient area of the flow map base on the "Air Consumption > Chart" (lbs per min) of the 1.3L 13B > that I submitted to the group in a previous post.............Of course fo= r > all practical purposes there is probably > little discernible difference between any of these turbo configurations > mentioned............. > > At least I have livened up the forum for a while > !!............FWIW..................<:) > > Kelly Troyer > "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine > "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 > "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* "Rogers, Bob J." > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Tue, August 17, 2010 5:20:49 PM > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions > > Yes, I used the Jet-Hot 2000 coating, shown at this link. > http://www.jet-hot.com/headercoatings.html I think that it is very > effective to reduce heat in the engine compartment. > > It is only applied at the Oklahoma City facility. > > Bob > ------------------------------ > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] > *On Behalf Of *Kelly Troyer > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 17, 2010 3:02 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions > > Bob, > Did you have your turbine housing and exhaust pipe coated with heat > resistant > coating and if so what and where ??............. > > Thanks, > > Kelly Troyer > "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine > "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 > "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* " Rogers, Bob J. " > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Mon, August 16, 2010 10:57:22 AM > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions > Kelly, > > There is one pretty good picture of the turbo installation (before radiat= or > baffling) on our EAA Chapter 1246 website at: > http://www.eaa1246.org/projectsnplanesdisplay.asp?id=3D10&pic=3D190. ; > Because the oil drains from the turbo into a sump that is lower than the = oil > pan, I must use an electric pump to transfer the oil back into the engine > oil pan. Attached is a view from the front, which shows the hoses and > tubing from the turbo compressor to the intercooler and back to the intak= e > manifold. > > Bob > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] > *On Behalf Of *Kelly Troyer > *Sent:* Monday, August 16, 2010 10:02 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions > > Bob, > I am waiting on a clarification from "Turbonetics" as to what size > turbine wheel > would turn the least rpm as altitude increases.............I know the > turbine housing > a/r ratio is a big factor effecting turbine rpm as we climb but it is no= t > clear to me > how the turbine wheel diameter and trim factor in.............Air densit= y > lessens with > altitude but I am not smart enough to know if the larger or smaller > turbine wheel > will have the highest rpm because of this factor as we climb ??......... > > Perhaps I am being anal about this but and you are probably correct > that that the > effect of a 3mm diameter difference between the two turbine wheels is > slight and > probably inconsequential...........If any of our multi-talented group > members would > like to shine some light on this please jump in here !!.......... > > On another note do you happen to have any photos of your 13B/turbo > installation > during construction that you would care to share with the group > ??..........You have > a beautiful (to Rotorheads) and well thought out installation which from > your report > is working very well and I am sure others of the group would like to > plagiarize.....<:) > > Best Regards, > > *Kelly Troyer** > "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine > "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 > "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold* > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* " Rogers, Bob J. " > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Fri, August 13, 2010 11:49:06 AM > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions > Kelly, > > I do not know which wheel is in my turbo. I expect the larger wheel (68 > mm) to turn a little more slowly, since it has a larger surface area to > absorb the exhaust, but it should not make much difference. Either one > should be OK. The Turbonetics people can probably explain the performanc= e > differences between the two wheel sizes. > > Bob > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] > *On Behalf Of *Kelly Troyer > *Sent:* Thursday, August 12, 2010 3:44 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions > > Bob, > Thanks much for the info.................Just one more > question..............Info from "Turbonetics" > says the 1.15 a/r turbine housing is limited to the F1-65 mm or F1-68 mm > turbine wheel....... > Do you have info as to what turbine wheel was installed in your 60-1 > turbo ??.............. > > Thanks Again, > > Kelly Troyer > "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine > "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 > "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* " Rogers, Bob J. " > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Thu, August 12, 2010 1:39:26 PM > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions > Kelly, > > I limit my takeoff power to no more than 42 =93 of manifold pressure (=93= MP=94), > usually just 40=94 . At altitudes of 5,000 feet and above, I generally r= un no > more than about 36 =93 MP (15 GPH) and 180 knots. Engine RPM is about 5,= 800. > The turbo is capable of considerably more boost than this, but I have to > watch engine water and oil temps at higher power settings. I do not want= to > run more than 200 degrees on oil or water and prefer 180 degrees. I can > maintain these temps (even on hot days) with cowl flap settings from clos= ed > to full open as long as I keep the power settings at or below those > described above. One day, I climbed to 11,000 feet and my GPS groundspee= d > (with a slight tailwind) was 213 knots. MP was 36=94, RPM 6,000. I have= a > 68=94 diameter x 84 pitch Prince P-tip fixed pitch prop coupled to the RW= S > 2.17/1 reduction unit. > > Bob > > --00221538fcd23c8f7b048eb28f71 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I don't particularly worry about temps after shut down.=A0 The ref= lective coating on the inside of the cowl in the hot areas is all that seem= s to be needed. I use regular aluminum foil attached with spray adhesive.= =A0 I try to park into the wind if possible, but don't really worry abo= ut it.=A0 The cowl does get quite hot to the touch, but seems to be able to= handle the heat.=A0 Your results may vary depending on installation and he= at load (mass of exhaust metal).
=A0
Radiant heat during flight is a different matter and needs to be thoug= ht of separately.=A0 this is the shielding of the components (like mount) t= hat get close to exhaust system.=A0 aluminum works well as long as it is mo= re than 1/4 inch or so away but be aware that if the exhaust should spring = a leak, the aluminum will melt pronto while SS will hold up.=A0

One of the nice things for me, using the stock housing and manifold, is= that I can use the stock heat shields that hold up well, fit perfect, and = are dirt cheap.=A0

I used to wrap my exhaust pipe with the extra to= ugh 2000 deg wrap but it would only last 100 hrs or so.=A0 the other stuff = not as well.=A0 didn't seem to make much difference so i stopped using = it.=A0 Most of that wraping/fiber/weave/cloth stuff is junk.=A0 Be careful = if you use it for anything important.. may even be a fire risk.

nowadays,besides the stock heat shielding, I put aluminum or SS heat sh= ields over the things that need to be protected and leave the hot stuff alo= ne.

Hope that helps

Dave Leonard

On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 10:25 PM, <shipchief@ao= l.com> wrote:
ANOTHER TURBO QUESTION:
What about turbo insulation. Dave Leonard, you mentioned it before, an= d I listened. Now I'm ground running (3 hours!!) and under cowl temps a= fter shutdown seem high. I have the Van's foil sheeting on the inside o= f the cowl anywhere near the turbo, a sewn insulation cover for the turbo t= hat Dave said would be insufficient, and some kevlar-like welder's drop= cloth in a single wrap around the turbo down pipe. The turbo header is bar= e with an aluminum heat shield to keep direct radiant heat off the motor mo= unt and lower intake manifold. I'm afraid to insulate the header,as=A0r= otary exhaust temps are challenging to 321 stainless steel.
Right now, I open the oil door to let heat out after ground runs, and = before addition of the foil, I used to run the shop vac discharge hose in t= he cowl to move some air too. I need a solution that would allow flying to = another destination, not just back to my hanger where a fan can cool the un= der-cowl area so the fiberglass doesn't melt.
Any practical advise?


-----Original Message-----
From: Kelly Troyer <keltro@att.net>
To: Rotary mot= ors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:10 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Ques= tions

=A0 The only possible downside I can see is=A0turbine over-speed at al= titude.........Part of this equation
is based on what rpm your=A0engine will be turning at takeoff and crui= se, the altitudes you fly=A0and
the psru ratio you have (2.17 or 2.85) with the 2.85 probably averagin= g 600 to 1000 rpm higher=A0
for both takeoff and cruise (fuel flow concerns may also=A0be a person= al factor)..........Also your prop
is a factor depending if it is fixed pitch or constant speed (or in-fl= ight adjust such as my "IVO").......
=A0
=A0=A0=A0With an adjustable pitch prop you can load the engine = at a lower rpm and control=A0turbo boost
with the throttle while being careful to avoid detonation.........The = bottom line is only flight testing
can determine exactly how your turbo will perform in your particular i= nstallation..............Should
your .81 a/r ratio turbine housing be a little too tight a .96 a/r rat= io "On Center" housing=A0to fit your
"P" trim (F1-65mm) turbine wheel is readily available for le= ss than $300.00 and the=A0.96 housing is
=A0working well for=A0John Slade and his "IVO"=A0equipped &q= uot;Cosy"=A0............=A0
=A0
=A0 Let the group know how all is working once you get her in the air = !!.............FWIW
=A0
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
&= quot;RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold= =20

From: "shipchief@aol.com" <shipchief@aol.com&= gt;
To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft <fl= yrotary@lancaironline.net>
= Sent: Wed, August 18, 2010 6:46:46 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: T= urbo Questions

Correction!!!
I just checked my aircraft manual, and the Turbo has a .81 AR. That= 9;s pretty tight for this group discussion. I guess we will see what happen= s as I run my engine at higher power.



-----Original Message-----
From: shipchief@aol.com
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <= ;flyrotary= @lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 3:49 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions=

George Kelly and all;
I've been off the list for a while (work) but today I safety wired= the water pump pulley bolts, as discussed in=A0 'one thing leads to an= other'.
Then I ran my engine for 40 minutes @ 1900 RPM. The low voltage that a= lerted me to the pully bolts was still with me, so I ran the engine with th= e upper cowl off, and climbed out of the cockpit to have a look.
I always sat in the plane while running it before, so this was pretty = informative. I ran it for a while, more than 20 minutes watching the batter= y voltage slowly=A0drop to 11.9 volts, still the engine ran sweet. I checke= d alternator output; it was just battery voltage, so nothing. I hooked up a= battery charger and kept running so I could watch the belt, feel the intak= e manifold and turbo etc. and look for problem areas. I'm feeling good = about my installation becuase it looks fairly neat and runs smooth and swee= t. I'm beginning to feel that this is going to be a success story. wink= , wink, Tracy. I just need to finish the airplane ;)
About the Turbo:
I'm running a 60-1 P trim compressor=A0and .97 AR On-Center TO-4 t= urbine=A0housing=A0( if I recall correctly) with a water cooled bearing. I = built the exhaust manifold simply because the Fred Brease mount I bought wo= uld=A0not accomodate the cast=A0iron Mazda Turbo manifold. =A0I selected th= e On-Center turbine because I wanted the design flexibility it offered, and= in fact I was able to mount the turbo with the exhaust oulet facing aft. T= he down pipe is very short, the intake filter is directly on the turbo comp= ressor, and to finally get to my point, my turbo is direct mounted to the e= ngine with a very short but somewhat large volume 321 stainless manifold. <= /div>
I decided to give up all the waste gates, blow off valves, remote moun= ts, flex joints, etc. and followed Kelly Johnson's addage: "Add Li= ghtness and Simplicate".
I installed the battery in the back of my RV-8 because RV-8's with= Lycoming IO-360=A0& constant speed props need to do this for CG reason= s. I couldn't imagine my 13BT being lighter. Still,=A0lightness is requ= ired, so I work at it.=A0All those=A0accoutraments have there place, and ma= ybe I will end up needing some or all of them, but I decided to start with = none of them and go forth. I'll add what ever I end up needing.
My turbo air pipe is somewhat long, but it does pass by the left side = of the cowl where I could mount an intercooler with air exit, so I have tha= t as a possibility. If I need a waste gate, I'll just cut a hole in the= exhaust manifold and TIG weld in a bypass pipe with or without some kind o= f valve....I have a spot in mind for that too.
I may be over thinking this whole thing, and that is part of why I bui= ld so slowly.
But I do=A0have 2.5 hours on the EM-2 hobbs meter!!



-----Original Message-----
From: George Lendich <lendich@aanet.com.a= u>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>= ;
Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 2:03 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Ques= tions

=A0Kelly,
Let us all know how well it goes for y= ou in the real world application. I can't help but feel we are trying t= o fit a square peg in a round hole with Turbo application to Aviation needs= .
=A0
Personally for myself, as I have state= d before, I feel that I would use remote mounted turbo, like some cars=A0us= e (to reduce the heat and flow speed to the turbo) and feed it from a bypas= s off the exhaust pipe. The by-pass could be controlled manually, for (when= required) application.=A0A wastegate does the same thing but the exhaust i= s taken right up to the turbo and carries the heat with it. I think this wo= uld go a long way in controlling heat and over spinning issues.
=A0
However you need the necessary room to= make this possible.
George (down under)
Bob, John and All,
=A0
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Well I have bit the bullet and made my decision for a t= urbo............After much research, talking to Bob
and John and conferring with a=A0"Turbonetics" dealer I have= ordered a TO4E-50 trim (compressor wheel),
wet bearing housing, big shaft "Q" trim (F1-68mm) turbine wh= eel and=A01.15 a/r ratio turbine housing.........
=A0
=A0=A0=A0=A0 The decision=A0what size turbine wheel and a/r ratio hous= ing was based on the fact that the=A0f1-68mm
turbine and 1.15 a/r housing causes less exhaust back pressure than th= e smaller wheel (bigger hole) and
will increase rpm less=A0as you increase altitude as opposed to the F1= -65mm wheel plus the 1.15 a/r ratio
housing will=A0slow rpm increase for the same reason............
=A0
=A0=A0=A0 The decision to go with the 50 trim compressor wheel (Like J= ohn)=A0verses the 60-1=A0wheel (Like Bob)=A0was
based=A0the "Flow Maps" of both wheels=A0and my=A0uneducated= opinion that the 50 trim wheel would be running
in a more efficient area of the flow map base on the "Air Consump= tion Chart" (lbs per min) of the 1.3L 13B
that I submitted to the group in a previous post.............Of course= for all practical purposes there is probably
little=A0discernible difference between any of these turbo configurati= ons mentioned.............
=A0
=A0=A0 At least I have livened up the forum for a while !!............= FWIW..................<:)
=A0
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
&= quot;RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold= =20

From: "Rogers, Bob J.= " <BRogers@FDIC.gov>
To= : Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.n= et>
Sent: Tue, August 17, 2010= 5:20:49 PM
Subject: [F= lyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions

Yes, I used = the Jet-Hot 2000 coating, shown at this link. http://www.jet-hot.com/headerco= atings.html=A0 I think that it is very effective to reduce= heat in the engine compartment.
=A0
It is only a= pplied at the Oklahoma City facility.
=A0
Bob
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lan= caironline.net] On Behalf Of Kelly Troyer
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, = 2010 3:02 PM
To: Rotary= motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions
=A0
Bob,
=A0 Did you have your turbine housing=A0= and exhaust pipe coated with heat resistant
coating and if so what and where ??.....= ........
=A0
Thanks,
=A0
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_1= 3B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Bac= kplate/Oil Manifold
=A0
=A0
From: " Rogers, Bob J. &q= uot; <BRogers@FDIC.gov>
To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Mon, August 16, 2010 10:57:22 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: T= urbo Questions
Kelly,
=A0
There is one= pretty good picture of the turbo installation (before radiator baffling) o= n our EAA Chapter 1246 website at:=A0 http://www.eaa1246.org/projectsnplanesdisplay.asp?id=3D10&= ;pic=3D190.=A0; Because the oil drains from the turbo into a sump that = is lower than the oil pan, I must use an electric pump to transfer the oil = back into the engine oil pan.=A0 Attached is a view from the front, which s= hows the hoses and tubing from the turbo compressor to the intercooler and = back to the intake manifold.=A0
=A0
Bob
=A0
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lan= caironline.net] On Behalf Of Kelly Troyer
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2= 010 10:02 AM
To: Rotary= motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions
=A0
Bob,
=A0=A0 I am waiting on a clarification= =A0 from "Turbonetics" as to what size turbine wheel
would=A0turn the least rpm as altitude i= ncreases.............I know the =A0turbine housing
a/r ratio is a big factor effecting turb= ine rpm as=A0we climb but it is not clear to me
how=A0the turbine wheel diameter and tri= m factor in.............Air density lessens with
altitude but=A0I am not smart enough to = know=A0if the larger or smaller turbine wheel
will have the highest rpm because of thi= s factor=A0as we climb ??.........
=A0
=A0 Perhaps I am being anal about this b= ut and you are probably correct that that the
effect of=A0a 3mm diameter=A0difference = between the two turbine wheels is slight and
probably inconsequential...........If an= y of our multi-talented group members would
like to shine some light on this please = jump in here !!..........
=A0
=A0 On another note do you happen to hav= e any photos of your 13B/turbo installation
during construction that you would care = to share with the group ??..........You have
a beautiful (to Rotorheads) and well tho= ught out installation which from your report
is working very well and=A0I am sure oth= ers of the group would like to plagiarize.....<:)
=A0
Best Regards,=A0
=A0=A0=A0
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke D= elta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistra= l"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
=A0
=A0
From: " Rogers, Bob J. &q= uot; <BRogers@FDIC.gov>
To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Fri, August 13, 2010 11:49:06 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: T= urbo Questions
Kelly,
=A0
I do not kno= w which wheel is in my turbo.=A0 I expect the larger wheel (68 mm) to turn = a little more slowly, since it has a larger surface area to absorb the exha= ust, but it should not make much difference.=A0 Either one should be OK.=A0= The Turbonetics people can probably explain the performance differences be= tween the two wheel sizes.
=A0
Bob
=A0
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lan= caironline.net] On Behalf Of Kelly Troyer
Sent: Thursday, August 12,= 2010 3:44 PM
To: Rotar= y motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions
=A0
Bob,
=A0 Thanks much for the info............= .....Just one more question..............Info from "Turbonetics"<= br>says the 1.15=A0a/r turbine housing is limited to the F1-65 mm or F1-68 = mm turbine wheel.......
=A0 Do you have info as to what=A0turbin= e wheel was installed in your 60-1 turbo ??..............
=A0
Thanks Again,
=A0
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_1= 3B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Bac= kplate/Oil Manifold
=A0
=A0
From: " Rogers, Bob J. &q= uot; <BRogers@FDIC.gov>
To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thu, August 12, 2010 1:39:26 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: T= urbo Questions
Kelly,
=A0
I limit my t= akeoff power to no more than 42 =93 of manifold pressure (=93M= P=94), usually just 40=94 .=A0 At altitudes of 5,000 feet and above, I gene= rally run no more than about 36 =93 MP (15 GPH) and 180 knots.=A0 Engine RP= M is about 5,800.=A0 The turbo is capable of considerably more boost than t= his, but I have to watch engine water and oil temps at higher power setting= s.=A0 I do not want to run more than 200 degrees on oil or water and prefer= 180 degrees.=A0 I can maintain these temps (even on hot days) with cowl fl= ap settings from closed to full open as long as I keep the power settings a= t or below those described above.=A0 One day, I climbed to 11,000 feet and = my GPS groundspeed (with a slight tailwind) was 213 knots.=A0 MP was 36=94,= RPM 6,000.=A0 I have a 68=94 diameter x 84 pitch Prince P-tip fixed pitch = prop coupled to the RWS 2.17/1 reduction unit.
=A0
Bob
=

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