X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from zixvpm1.fdic.gov ([167.176.6.41] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.8) with ESMTPS id 4443359 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 11:42:49 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=167.176.6.41; envelope-from=brogers@fdic.gov Received: from zixvpm1.fdic.gov (ZixVPM [127.0.0.1]) by Outbound.fdic.gov (Proprietary) with ESMTP id 41AE69406AC for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 11:42:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.fdic.gov (mail.fdic.gov [10.30.1.5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by zixvpm1.fdic.gov (Proprietary) with ESMTP id B7CA194069E for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 11:42:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ([151.174.14.14]) by mail.fdic.gov with ESMTP id 5502665.2794737; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 11:42:08 -0400 Received: from DALEXC100P.PROD.FDIC.GOV ([172.26.81.152]) by dalexc001p.PROD.FDIC.GOV with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.7381); Wed, 25 Aug 2010 11:42:08 -0400 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CB446C.12DE783C" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 10:42:06 -0500 Message-ID: <1F44A251F397E444B05E240B8688AB7907DED884@DALEXC100P.PROD.FDIC.GOV> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions Thread-Index: ActEYwftlAjB0fPpSRKR59duwstH7gACDS8g References: From: "Rogers, Bob J." To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Aug 2010 15:42:08.0554 (UTC) FILETIME=[138FD0A0:01CB446C] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CB446C.12DE783C Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As I recall, the Jet Hot coating for my exhaust manifold and turbo cost = about $350 when I had it done a few years ago. So far, it is holding up = well after 50 hours of flying over the last year. =20 Bob ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On = Behalf Of Kelly Troyer Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 9:36 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions =20 "TreadStone Eng." < http://www.treadstoneperformance.com/index.phtml> = where I purchased my TO4E-50 offers two stainless shields for the "On Center" turbine housing (a = little pricy) that may help...........Also Bob Rogers had his turbine housing and exhaust pipe coated by "Jet Hot" = with their=20 2000F coating said to be good up to 2450F............Bob said it lowers = undercowl temps significantly........... Bob if you read this can you tell us your flight hours and cost and how = it is standing up................. =20 =20 =20 =20 = =20 T4 Stainless Turbo Heat Shield T4 Stainless Steel Heat Sheild Finally they are here! Conceal that ugly = and rusting turbine housing with this beautiful heat shield. Not only do = they look incredible, but they will help reduce under hood temperatures = dramatically! These are designed to work on most T4 turbocharger turbine = housings 0.58 - 0.96 A/R TANG and On-Center. Easy bolt on installation! = Made from laser cut 304 Stainless steel, tig welded/show polished in = house. We have T3 heat shields in stock also. Reg Price $139.95 Made in = the USA - Show Polished 304 Stainless Steel 2 Year warranty! $79.95 = =20 =20 = =20 Turbonetics Heat Shields Great for decreasing under hood temperatures, and holding in all that = thermal energy! Protect under hood components! $102.75 = =20 =20 JET-HOT 2000 is formulated for very high temperatures. This rugged = coating protects substrates up to 2,450=B0F, heat levels sometimes = encountered in Rodding and Off-Road applications. It is available in = black or grey and has a gritty and rough texture to it. It can = withstand higher temperatures than the EXTREME STERLING. Some turbo = applications see exhaust temps over the 1,700=BAF limit of EXTREME = STERLING, so the JET-HOT 2000 will work better for those types of = vehicles. This coating is only done in our Oklahoma City facility. =20 =20 =20 gray header coating=20 black header coating=20 =20 Kelly Troyer "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 =20 =20 ________________________________ From: James Maher To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Wed, August 25, 2010 8:41:37 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions Depending on its proximity to the exhaust, you may want to replace the = aluminum heat shield with a stainless steel one. =20 I too had an aluminum heat shield between the exhaust and intake = manifolds that melted on the first flight and was found in globs in the = bottom of the cowling. My setup was a tangential muffler inside the cowl, not a turbo. This was after nearly 20 hours of ground running without any problems. YMMV =20 Jim Maher --- On Wed, 8/25/10, shipchief@aol.com wrote: =09 From: shipchief@aol.com Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Date: Wednesday, August 25, 2010, 1:25 AM ANOTHER TURBO QUESTION: What about turbo insulation. Dave Leonard, you mentioned it before, and = I listened. Now I'm ground running (3 hours!!) and under cowl temps = after shutdown seem high. I have the Van's foil sheeting on the inside = of the cowl anywhere near the turbo, a sewn insulation cover for the = turbo that Dave said would be insufficient, and some kevlar-like = welder's drop cloth in a single wrap around the turbo down pipe. The = turbo header is bare with an aluminum heat shield to keep direct radiant = heat off the motor mount and lower intake manifold. I'm afraid to = insulate the header,as rotary exhaust temps are challenging to 321 = stainless steel.=20 Right now, I open the oil door to let heat out after ground runs, and = before addition of the foil, I used to run the shop vac discharge hose = in the cowl to move some air too. I need a solution that would allow = flying to another destination, not just back to my hanger where a fan = can cool the under-cowl area so the fiberglass doesn't melt. Any practical advise? =20 -----Original Message----- From: Kelly Troyer To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:10 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions The only possible downside I can see is turbine over-speed at = altitude.........Part of this equation is based on what rpm your engine will be turning at takeoff and cruise, = the altitudes you fly and=20 the psru ratio you have (2.17 or 2.85) with the 2.85 probably averaging = 600 to 1000 rpm higher=20 for both takeoff and cruise (fuel flow concerns may also be a personal = factor)..........Also your prop is a factor depending if it is fixed pitch or constant speed (or = in-flight adjust such as my "IVO")....... =20 With an adjustable pitch prop you can load the engine at a lower rpm = and control turbo boost with the throttle while being careful to avoid detonation.........The = bottom line is only flight testing=20 can determine exactly how your turbo will perform in your particular = installation..............Should=20 your .81 a/r ratio turbine housing be a little too tight a .96 a/r = ratio "On Center" housing to fit your=20 "P" trim (F1-65mm) turbine wheel is readily available for less than = $300.00 and the .96 housing is working well for John Slade and his "IVO" equipped "Cosy" ............ = =20 Let the group know how all is working once you get her in the air = !!.............FWIW =20 Kelly Troyer "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 =20 =20 =09 ________________________________ From: "shipchief@aol.com = " = > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Wed, August 18, 2010 6:46:46 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions Correction!!! I just checked my aircraft manual, and the Turbo has a .81 AR. That's = pretty tight for this group discussion. I guess we will see what happens = as I run my engine at higher power. =20 -----Original Message----- From: shipchief@aol.com = =20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 3:49 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions George Kelly and all; I've been off the list for a while (work) but today I safety wired the = water pump pulley bolts, as discussed in 'one thing leads to another'. Then I ran my engine for 40 minutes @ 1900 RPM. The low voltage that = alerted me to the pully bolts was still with me, so I ran the engine = with the upper cowl off, and climbed out of the cockpit to have a look.=20 I always sat in the plane while running it before, so this was pretty = informative. I ran it for a while, more than 20 minutes watching the = battery voltage slowly drop to 11.9 volts, still the engine ran sweet. I = checked alternator output; it was just battery voltage, so nothing. I = hooked up a battery charger and kept running so I could watch the belt, = feel the intake manifold and turbo etc. and look for problem areas. I'm = feeling good about my installation becuase it looks fairly neat and runs = smooth and sweet. I'm beginning to feel that this is going to be a = success story. wink, wink, Tracy. I just need to finish the airplane ;) About the Turbo: I'm running a 60-1 P trim compressor and .97 AR On-Center TO-4 turbine = housing ( if I recall correctly) with a water cooled bearing. I built = the exhaust manifold simply because the Fred Brease mount I bought would = not accomodate the cast iron Mazda Turbo manifold. I selected the = On-Center turbine because I wanted the design flexibility it offered, = and in fact I was able to mount the turbo with the exhaust oulet facing = aft. The down pipe is very short, the intake filter is directly on the = turbo compressor, and to finally get to my point, my turbo is direct = mounted to the engine with a very short but somewhat large volume 321 = stainless manifold.=20 I decided to give up all the waste gates, blow off valves, remote = mounts, flex joints, etc. and followed Kelly Johnson's addage: "Add = Lightness and Simplicate". I installed the battery in the back of my RV-8 because RV-8's with = Lycoming IO-360 & constant speed props need to do this for CG reasons. I = couldn't imagine my 13BT being lighter. Still, lightness is required, so = I work at it. All those accoutraments have there place, and maybe I will = end up needing some or all of them, but I decided to start with none of = them and go forth. I'll add what ever I end up needing. My turbo air pipe is somewhat long, but it does pass by the left side = of the cowl where I could mount an intercooler with air exit, so I have = that as a possibility. If I need a waste gate, I'll just cut a hole in = the exhaust manifold and TIG weld in a bypass pipe with or without some = kind of valve....I have a spot in mind for that too. I may be over thinking this whole thing, and that is part of why I = build so slowly. But I do have 2.5 hours on the EM-2 hobbs meter!!=20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: George Lendich > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 2:03 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions Kelly, Let us all know how well it goes for you in the real world application. = I can't help but feel we are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole = with Turbo application to Aviation needs. =20 Personally for myself, as I have stated before, I feel that I would use = remote mounted turbo, like some cars use (to reduce the heat and flow = speed to the turbo) and feed it from a bypass off the exhaust pipe. The = by-pass could be controlled manually, for (when required) application. A = wastegate does the same thing but the exhaust is taken right up to the = turbo and carries the heat with it. I think this would go a long way in = controlling heat and over spinning issues. =20 However you need the necessary room to make this possible. George (down under) Bob, John and All, =20 Well I have bit the bullet and made my decision for a = turbo............After much research, talking to Bob=20 and John and conferring with a "Turbonetics" dealer I have ordered a = TO4E-50 trim (compressor wheel),=20 wet bearing housing, big shaft "Q" trim (F1-68mm) turbine wheel and = 1.15 a/r ratio turbine housing......... =20 The decision what size turbine wheel and a/r ratio housing was = based on the fact that the f1-68mm turbine and 1.15 a/r housing causes less exhaust back pressure than = the smaller wheel (bigger hole) and will increase rpm less as you increase altitude as opposed to the = F1-65mm wheel plus the 1.15 a/r ratio housing will slow rpm increase for the same reason............ =20 The decision to go with the 50 trim compressor wheel (Like John) = verses the 60-1 wheel (Like Bob) was=20 based the "Flow Maps" of both wheels and my uneducated opinion that = the 50 trim wheel would be running=20 in a more efficient area of the flow map base on the "Air Consumption = Chart" (lbs per min) of the 1.3L 13B=20 that I submitted to the group in a previous post.............Of course = for all practical purposes there is probably little discernible difference between any of these turbo = configurations mentioned............. =20 At least I have livened up the forum for a while = !!............FWIW..................<:) =20 Kelly Troyer "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 =20 =20 =09 ________________________________ From: "Rogers, Bob J." > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Tue, August 17, 2010 5:20:49 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions Yes, I used the Jet-Hot 2000 coating, shown at this link. = http://www.jet-hot.com/headercoatings.html I think that it is very = effective to reduce heat in the engine compartment. =20 It is only applied at the Oklahoma City facility. =20 Bob =09 ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net = ] On Behalf Of Kelly Troyer Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 3:02 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions =20 Bob, Did you have your turbine housing and exhaust pipe coated with heat = resistant coating and if so what and where ??............. =20 Thanks, =20 Kelly Troyer "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 =20 =20 =09 ________________________________ From: " Rogers, Bob J. " > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Mon, August 16, 2010 10:57:22 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions Kelly, =20 There is one pretty good picture of the turbo installation (before = radiator baffling) on our EAA Chapter 1246 website at: = http://www.eaa1246.org/projectsnplanesdisplay.asp?id=3D10&pic=3D190. = = ; Because the oil drains from the turbo into a sump that is lower than = the oil pan, I must use an electric pump to transfer the oil back into = the engine oil pan. Attached is a view from the front, which shows the = hoses and tubing from the turbo compressor to the intercooler and back = to the intake manifold. =20 =20 Bob =20 =09 ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net = ] On Behalf Of Kelly Troyer Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 10:02 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions =20 Bob, I am waiting on a clarification from "Turbonetics" as to what size = turbine wheel would turn the least rpm as altitude increases.............I know the = turbine housing a/r ratio is a big factor effecting turbine rpm as we climb but it is = not clear to me how the turbine wheel diameter and trim factor in.............Air = density lessens with altitude but I am not smart enough to know if the larger or smaller = turbine wheel will have the highest rpm because of this factor as we climb = ??......... =20 Perhaps I am being anal about this but and you are probably correct = that that the=20 effect of a 3mm diameter difference between the two turbine wheels is = slight and=20 probably inconsequential...........If any of our multi-talented group = members would=20 like to shine some light on this please jump in here !!.......... =20 On another note do you happen to have any photos of your 13B/turbo = installation during construction that you would care to share with the group = ??..........You have a beautiful (to Rotorheads) and well thought out installation which = from your report is working very well and I am sure others of the group would like to = plagiarize.....<:) =20 Best Regards,=20 =20 Kelly Troyer "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 =20 =20 =09 ________________________________ From: " Rogers, Bob J. " > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Fri, August 13, 2010 11:49:06 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions Kelly,=20 =20 I do not know which wheel is in my turbo. I expect the larger wheel = (68 mm) to turn a little more slowly, since it has a larger surface area = to absorb the exhaust, but it should not make much difference. Either = one should be OK. The Turbonetics people can probably explain the = performance differences between the two wheel sizes. =20 Bob =20 =09 ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net = ] On Behalf Of Kelly Troyer Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 3:44 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions =20 Bob, Thanks much for the info.................Just one more = question..............Info from "Turbonetics" says the 1.15 a/r turbine housing is limited to the F1-65 mm or F1-68 = mm turbine wheel....... Do you have info as to what turbine wheel was installed in your 60-1 = turbo ??.............. =20 Thanks Again, =20 Kelly Troyer "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 =20 =20 =09 ________________________________ From: " Rogers, Bob J. " > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Thu, August 12, 2010 1:39:26 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions Kelly, =20 I limit my takeoff power to no more than 42 " of manifold pressure = ("MP"), usually just 40" . At altitudes of 5,000 feet and above, I = generally run no more than about 36 " MP (15 GPH) and 180 knots. Engine = RPM is about 5,800. The turbo is capable of considerably more boost = than this, but I have to watch engine water and oil temps at higher = power settings. I do not want to run more than 200 degrees on oil or = water and prefer 180 degrees. I can maintain these temps (even on hot = days) with cowl flap settings from closed to full open as long as I keep = the power settings at or below those described above. One day, I = climbed to 11,000 feet and my GPS groundspeed (with a slight tailwind) = was 213 knots. MP was 36", RPM 6,000. I have a 68" diameter x 84 pitch = Prince P-tip fixed pitch prop coupled to the RWS 2.17/1 reduction unit. =20 Bob =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01CB446C.12DE783C Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

As I recall, the Jet Hot coating = for my exhaust manifold and turbo cost about $350 when I had it done a few = years ago. =A0So far, it is holding up well after = 50 hours of flying over the last year.

 

Bob

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Kelly Troyer
Sent: Wednesday, August = 25, 2010 9:36 AM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Turbo Questions

 

"TreadStone Eng." < http://www.trea= dstoneperformance.com/index.phtml> where I purchased my TO4E-50

offers two stainless shields for the "On Center" turbine housing (a little pricy) that may = help...........Also Bob

Rogers had his turbine housing = and exhaust pipe coated by "Jet Hot" <http://www.jet-hot.com/ > with their =

2000F coating said to be good up to = 2450F............Bob said it lowers undercowl temps = significantly...........

Bob if you read this can you tell us your flight = hours and cost and how it is standing = up.................

 

 

 

 

T4 Stainless Turbo Heat Shield

T4 Stainless Steel Heat Sheild Finally they are here! Conceal that ugly and rusting turbine housing with this beautiful heat = shield. Not only do they look incredible, but they will help reduce under hood temperatures dramatically! These are designed to work on most T4 = turbocharger turbine housings 0.58 - 0.96 A/R TANG and On-Center. Easy bolt on = installation! Made from laser cut 304 Stainless steel, tig welded/show polished in = house. We have T3 heat shields in stock also. Reg Price $139.95 Made in the = USA = - Show Polished 304 Stainless Steel 2 Year = warranty!

$79.95<= font face=3DArial>

 

Turbonetics Heat Shields

Great for decreasing under hood temperatures, and = holding in all that thermal energy! Protect under hood = components!

$102.75=

 

JET-HOT 2000 is formulated for = very high temperatures.  This rugged coating protects substrates up to = 2,450=B0F, heat levels sometimes encountered in Rodding and Off-Road = applications. It is available in black or grey and has a gritty and rough texture to it.  It can withstand higher temperatures than the EXTREME STERLING.  Some turbo applications see exhaust temps over the = 1,700=BAF limit of EXTREME STERLING, so the JET-HOT 2000 will work better for = those types of vehicles. This coating is only done in our Oklahoma City = facility.

 

 

 

3D"gray

3D"black

 

Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

 

 

From: James Maher <delta11xd@att.net>
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wed, August 25, = 2010 8:41:37 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Turbo Questions

Depending on its proximity to the exhaust, = you may want to replace the aluminum heat shield with a stainless steel = one.

 

I too had an aluminum heat shield between = the exhaust and intake manifolds that melted on the first flight and was = found in globs in the bottom of the cowling.

My setup was a tangential muffler inside = the cowl, not a turbo.

This was after nearly 20 hours of ground = running without any problems.

YMMV

 

Jim Maher

--- On Wed, 8/25/10, = shipchief@aol.com <shipchief@aol.com> wrote:


From: shipchief@aol.com <shipchief@aol.com>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Date: Wednesday, August 25, 2010, 1:25 AM

ANOTHER TURBO QUESTION:

What about = turbo insulation. Dave Leonard, you mentioned it before, and I listened. Now = I'm ground running (3 hours!!) and under cowl temps after shutdown seem = high. I have the Van's foil sheeting on the inside of the cowl anywhere near = the turbo, a sewn insulation cover for the turbo that Dave said would be insufficient, and some kevlar-like welder's drop cloth in a single = wrap around the turbo down pipe. The turbo header is bare with an aluminum = heat shield to keep direct radiant heat off the motor mount and lower = intake manifold. I'm afraid to insulate the header,as rotary exhaust = temps are challenging to 321 stainless steel.

Right now, I = open the oil door to let heat out after ground runs, and before addition of the = foil, I used to run the shop vac discharge hose in the cowl to move some air = too. I need a solution that would allow flying to another destination, not = just back to my hanger where a fan can cool the under-cowl area so the = fiberglass doesn't melt.

Any practical = advise?

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Kelly Troyer <keltro@att.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:10 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions

  The = only possible downside I can see is turbine over-speed at altitude.........Part of this equation

is based on = what rpm your engine will be turning at takeoff and cruise, the altitudes = you fly and

the psru = ratio you have (2.17 or 2.85) with the 2.85 probably averaging 600 to 1000 rpm higher 

for both = takeoff and cruise (fuel flow concerns may also be a personal = factor)..........Also your prop

is a factor = depending if it is fixed pitch or constant speed (or in-flight adjust such as my "IVO").......

 
   With an adjustable pitch prop you can load the = engine at a lower rpm and control turbo boost

with the = throttle while being careful to avoid detonation.........The bottom line is = only flight testing

can determine = exactly how your turbo will perform in your particular installation..............Should

your .81 a/r = ratio turbine housing be a little too tight a .96 a/r ratio "On = Center" housing to fit your

"P" = trim (F1-65mm) turbine wheel is readily available for less than $300.00 and = the .96 housing is

 working = well for John Slade and his "IVO" equipped "Cosy" ............ 

 

  Let = the group know how all is working once you get her in the air = !!.............FWIW

 

Kelly = Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold =

 

 

From: "shipchief@aol.com" <shipchief@aol.com>
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wed, August 18, = 2010 6:46:46 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Re: Turbo Questions

Correction!!!

I just checked my aircraft manual, and the Turbo has a .81 AR. That's = pretty tight for this group discussion. I guess we will see what happens as I = run my engine at higher power.

 

-----Original Message-----
From: shipchief@aol.com
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 3:49 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions

George Kelly = and all;

I've been off = the list for a while (work) but today I safety wired the water pump pulley = bolts, as discussed in  'one thing leads to = another'.

Then I ran my = engine for 40 minutes @ 1900 RPM. The low voltage that alerted me to the = pully bolts was still with me, so I ran the engine with the upper cowl off, and = climbed out of the cockpit to have a look.

I always sat = in the plane while running it before, so this was pretty informative. I ran = it for a while, more than 20 minutes watching the battery voltage = slowly drop to 11.9 volts, still the engine ran sweet. I checked alternator output; = it was just battery voltage, so nothing. I hooked up a battery charger and = kept running so I could watch the belt, feel the intake manifold and turbo = etc. and look for problem areas. I'm feeling good about my installation = becuase it looks fairly neat and runs smooth and sweet. I'm beginning to feel = that this is going to be a success story. wink, wink, Tracy. I just need to finish the = airplane ;)

About the = Turbo:

I'm running a = 60-1 P trim compressor and .97 AR On-Center TO-4 = turbine housing ( if I recall correctly) with a water cooled bearing. I built the exhaust = manifold simply because the Fred Brease mount I bought would not = accomodate the cast iron Mazda Turbo manifold.  I selected the On-Center = turbine because I wanted the design flexibility it offered, and in fact I was = able to mount the turbo with the exhaust oulet facing aft. The down pipe is = very short, the intake filter is directly on the turbo compressor, and to = finally get to my point, my turbo is direct mounted to the engine with a very = short but somewhat large volume 321 stainless manifold. =

I decided to = give up all the waste gates, blow off valves, remote mounts, flex joints, etc. = and followed Kelly Johnson's addage: "Add Lightness and = Simplicate".

I installed = the battery in the back of my RV-8 because RV-8's with Lycoming = IO-360 & constant speed props need to do this for CG reasons. I couldn't = imagine my 13BT being lighter. Still, lightness is required, so I work at it. All those accoutraments have there place, and maybe I = will end up needing some or all of them, but I decided to start with none of = them and go forth. I'll add what ever I end up = needing.

My turbo air = pipe is somewhat long, but it does pass by the left side of the cowl where I = could mount an intercooler with air exit, so I have that as a possibility. = If I need a waste gate, I'll just cut a hole in the exhaust manifold and = TIG weld in a bypass pipe with or without some kind of valve....I have a spot = in mind for that too.

I may be over = thinking this whole thing, and that is part of why I build so = slowly.

But I do have 2.5 hours on the EM-2 hobbs meter!!

 

-----Original Message-----
From: George Lendich <lendich@aanet.com.au>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 2:03 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions

 Kelly,

Let us all = know how well it goes for you in the real world application. I can't help but = feel we are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole with Turbo application = to Aviation needs.

 

Personally = for myself, as I have stated before, I feel that I would use remote mounted turbo, = like some cars use (to reduce the heat and flow speed to the turbo) = and feed it from a bypass off the exhaust pipe. The by-pass could be controlled manually, for (when required) application. A wastegate does the = same thing but the exhaust is taken right up to the turbo and carries the = heat with it. I think this would go a long way in controlling heat and over spinning issues.

 

However you = need the necessary room to make this possible.

George (down = under)

Bob, John and = All,

 

  &nbs= p;  Well I have bit the bullet and made my decision for a = turbo............After much research, talking to Bob

and John and conferring with a "Turbonetics" dealer I have ordered a TO4E-50 trim (compressor wheel),

wet bearing = housing, big shaft "Q" trim (F1-68mm) turbine wheel and 1.15 a/r = ratio turbine housing.........

 

  &nbs= p;  The decision what size turbine wheel and a/r ratio housing was = based on the fact that the f1-68mm

turbine and = 1.15 a/r housing causes less exhaust back pressure than the smaller wheel = (bigger hole) and

will increase = rpm less as you increase altitude as opposed to the F1-65mm wheel = plus the 1.15 a/r ratio

housing = will slow rpm increase for the same = reason............

 

  &nbs= p; The decision to go with the 50 trim compressor wheel (Like = John) verses the 60-1 wheel (Like Bob) was

based the "Flow Maps" of both wheels and my uneducated = opinion that the 50 trim wheel would be running

in a more = efficient area of the flow map base on the "Air Consumption Chart" = (lbs per min) of the 1.3L 13B

that I = submitted to the group in a previous post.............Of course for all practical = purposes there is probably

little disc= ernible difference between any of these turbo configurations = mentioned.............

 

   = At least I have livened up the forum for a while = !!............FWIW..................<:)

 

Kelly = Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold =

 

 

From: "Rogers, Bob J." <BRogers@FDIC.gov>
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Tue, August 17, = 2010 5:20:49 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Re: Turbo Questions

Yes, I used the Jet-Hot 2000 = coating, shown at this link. http://www.jet-hot.com/headercoatings.html  I = think that it is very effective to reduce heat in the engine = compartment.

 

It is only applied at the = Oklahoma = City facility.

 

Bob

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Kelly Troyer
Sent: Tuesday, August = 17, 2010 3:02 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Re: Turbo Questions

 

Bob,

  Did = you have your turbine housing and exhaust pipe coated with heat = resistant

coating and = if so what and where ??.............

 

Thanks,
 

Kelly = Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

 

 

From: " Rogers, Bob J. " <BRogers@FDIC.gov>
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Mon, August 16, = 2010 10:57:22 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Re: Turbo Questions

Kelly,

 

There is one pretty good picture = of the turbo installation (before radiator baffling) on our EAA Chapter 1246 = website at:  http://www.eaa1246.org/projectsnplanesdisplay.asp?id=3D= 10&pic=3D190. ; Because the oil drains from the turbo into a sump that is lower than = the oil pan, I must use an electric pump to transfer the oil back into the = engine oil pan.  Attached is a view from the front, which shows the hoses = and tubing from the turbo compressor to the intercooler and back to the = intake manifold. 

 

Bob

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Kelly Troyer
Sent: Monday, August = 16, 2010 10:02 AM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Re: Turbo Questions

 

Bob,

   = I am waiting on a clarification  from "Turbonetics" as to = what size turbine wheel

would turn = the least rpm as altitude increases.............I know the  turbine = housing

a/r ratio is = a big factor effecting turbine rpm as we climb but it is not clear to = me

how the = turbine wheel diameter and trim factor in.............Air density lessens = with

altitude = but I am not smart enough to know if the larger or smaller turbine = wheel

will have the = highest rpm because of this factor as we climb = ??.........

 

  = Perhaps I am being anal about this but and you are probably correct that that the =

effect = of a 3mm diameter difference between the two turbine wheels is slight and =

probably inconsequential...........If any of our multi-talented group members = would

like to shine = some light on this please jump in here !!..........

 

  On = another note do you happen to have any photos of your 13B/turbo = installation

during = construction that you would care to share with the group ??..........You = have

a beautiful = (to Rotorheads) and well thought out installation which from your = report

is working = very well and I am sure others of the group would like to = plagiarize.....<:)

 

Best = Regards, 

  &nbs= p;

Kelly = Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold =

 

 

From: " Rogers, Bob J. " <BRogers@FDIC.gov>
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Fri, August 13, = 2010 11:49:06 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Re: Turbo Questions

Kelly,

 

I do not know which wheel is in = my turbo.  I expect the larger wheel (68 mm) to turn a little more = slowly, since it has a larger surface area to absorb the exhaust, but it = should not make much difference.  Either one should be OK.  The = Turbonetics people can probably explain the performance differences between the = two wheel sizes.

 

Bob

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Kelly Troyer
Sent: Thursday, August = 12, 2010 3:44 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Re: Turbo Questions

 

Bob,

  Thanks = much for the info.................Just one more question..............Info from "Turbonetics"
says the 1.15 a/r turbine housing is limited to the F1-65 mm or = F1-68 mm turbine wheel.......

  Do you = have info as to what turbine wheel was installed in your 60-1 turbo ??..............

 

Thanks = Again,

 

Kelly = Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

 

 

From: " Rogers, Bob J. " <BRogers@FDIC.gov>
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thu, August 12, = 2010 1:39:26 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Re: Turbo Questions

Kelly,

 

I limit my takeoff power to no = more than 42 “ of manifold = pressure (“MP”), usually just 40” .  At altitudes of 5,000 feet and above, I = generally run no more than about 36 “ MP (15 GPH) and 180 knots.  = Engine RPM is about 5,800.  The turbo is capable of considerably more boost = than this, but I have to watch engine water and oil temps at higher power settings.  I do not want to run more than 200 degrees on oil or = water and prefer 180 degrees.  I can maintain these temps (even on hot = days) with cowl flap settings from closed to full open as long as I keep the = power settings at or below those described above.  One day, I climbed = to 11,000 feet and my GPS groundspeed (with a slight tailwind) was 213 knots.  MP was 36”, RPM 6,000.  I have a 68” = diameter x 84 pitch Prince P-tip fixed pitch prop coupled to the RWS 2.17/1 reduction = unit.

 

Bob

 

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