X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com ([69.147.92.107] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.8) with SMTP id 4443230 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 10:37:00 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=69.147.92.107; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: (qmail 25517 invoked by uid 60001); 25 Aug 2010 14:36:23 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1282746983; bh=A/4SlWofxSbsG3zHjPNSrTwTLzPclgPpLIL+AI/ksoI=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=Qf6gKNLrPxpb1nwFcCBi5/Izk0kLoJyOaztYWFk2/ZaGbkFSAyQrMCwCVQoT5JWSruvL5JxBpg3IfTnYC7SgoyM2I2CCLRULbijoS7VOwj2oT1UnxvprdgjFniNs9yzWrEAcOH4DfZUVQeNd5nlg5rhEeTdHx6CsyYIIFdi6BdY= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=att.net; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=P/59AWhvc7Y19KfB7bwfHQ9R/3wWXrXtyAOPKAoXMuqAr2g9ZsoLByAD28ohjHv9Kh172psdwHw9D+CuGhl4zTODNO5Qg2A0AvASlfxxURDis6CyJGz9fUXXjOo9zrphTxFnwwGCcTVaQ6+GPKNNBXOl3nyKuAGgq4ybLDXIpQQ=; Message-ID: <118472.20401.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: eQ7NmucVM1ll8s_lQRD_p9oeVQ7M7Lsvh7T0XvVqsesrj.I iZ4r58INl2i2vfbLjMhyvz492VbO6CHTs_0tJN1YDVZubPnlUZFYZeuf3T5M dSihfYsXTCB0G3l9MGtMjHLKepDMD04D0O9LWU9CSyyD5jcLAcuO6wH_QZbm fnWqokIUMUR9o.gfta7jPBwlqtUCeqWMq_1ydx.k7VLI3ccruZ.sN0diNisj ZZQ825Kdl0k7Gq6VoNJnssb.hM9nesqzN7JnmZfSDPTAOrYmIzkW1mI4kUOB 3peoi9n1RqIbwNXdf7x.afFUN9kiXTpqmhdQwrUJXyVKs2mob8BMvMamvZ_8 5drddrgMXjpSQTpvUbgk5jarmDxJm5yJ7GKGC Received: from [208.114.39.140] by web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 07:36:23 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/470 YahooMailWebService/0.8.105.279950 Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 07:36:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Kelly Troyer Subject: Re: Turbo Questions To: Rotary motors in aircraft MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1568540478-1282746983=:20401" --0-1568540478-1282746983=:20401 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "TreadStone Eng." <=C2=A0http://www.treadstoneperformance.com/index.phtml> = where I =0Apurchased my TO4E-50=0Aoffers=C2=A0two stainless shields for the= "On Center" turbine housing (a little =0Apricy) that may help...........Al= so Bob=0ARogers had his turbine housing and exhaust pipe coated by "Jet Hot= " =0A with their =0A=0A2000F coating said to be g= ood up to 2450F............Bob said it lowers =0Aundercowl temps significan= tly...........=0ABob if you read this can you tell us your flight hours and= cost and=C2=A0how it is =0Astanding up.................=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A =0A= T4 Stainless Turbo Heat Shield=0AT4 Stainless Steel Heat Sheild Finally the= y are here! Conceal that ugly and =0Arusting turbine housing with this beau= tiful heat shield. Not only do they look =0Aincredible, but they will help = reduce under hood temperatures dramatically! =0AThese are designed to work = on most T4 turbocharger turbine housings 0.58 - 0.96 =0AA/R TANG and On-Cen= ter. Easy bolt on installation! Made from laser cut 304 =0AStainless steel,= tig welded/show polished in house. We have T3 heat shields in =0Astock als= o. Reg Price $139.95 Made in the USA - Show Polished 304 Stainless =0ASteel= 2 Year warranty!=0A$79.95 =0A=C2=A0=0A =0ATurbonetics Heat Shields=0AGreat= for decreasing under hood temperatures, and holding in all that thermal = =0Aenergy! Protect under hood components!=0A$102.75 =0A=C2=A0=0AJET-HOT 200= 0 is formulated for very high temperatures. =C2=A0This rugged coating =0Apr= otects substrates up to 2,450=C2=B0F, heat levels sometimes encountered in = Rodding =0Aand Off-Road applications. It is available in black or grey and = has a gritty and =0Arough texture to it.=C2=A0 It can withstand higher temp= eratures than the EXTREME =0ASTERLING.=C2=A0 Some turbo applications see ex= haust temps over the 1,700=C2=BAF limit of =0AEXTREME STERLING, so the JET-= HOT 2000 will work better for those types of =0Avehicles. This coating is o= nly done in our Oklahoma City facility.=0A=C2=A0=0A=C2=A0=0A=C2=A0 =0A= =C2=A0Kelly Troyer=0A"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A= "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A___________________________= _____=0AFrom: James Maher =0ATo: Rotary motors in aircra= ft =0ASent: Wed, August 25, 2010 8:41:37 AM=0A= Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions=0A=0A=0ADepending on its proximity= to the exhaust, you may want to replace the aluminum =0Aheat shield with a= stainless steel one.=0A=0AI too had an aluminum heat shield between the ex= haust and intake manifolds that =0Amelted on the first flight and was found= in globs in the bottom of the cowling.=0AMy setup was a tangential muffler= inside the cowl, not a turbo.=0AThis was after nearly 20 hours of ground r= unning without any problems.=0AYMMV=0A=0AJim Maher=0A=0A--- On Wed, 8/25/10= , shipchief@aol.com wrote:=0A=0A=0A>From: shipchief@aol= .com =0A>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions=0A>To:= "Rotary motors in aircraft" =0A>Date: Wednesd= ay, August 25, 2010, 1:25 AM=0A>=0A>=0A>ANOTHER TURBO QUESTION:=0A>What abo= ut turbo insulation. Dave Leonard, you mentioned it before, and I =0A>liste= ned. Now I'm ground running (3 hours!!) and under cowl temps after shutdown= =0A>seem high. I have the Van's foil sheeting on the inside of the cowl an= ywhere =0A>near the turbo, a sewn insulation cover for the turbo that Dave = said would be =0A>insufficient, and some kevlar-like welder's drop cloth in= a single wrap around =0A>the turbo down pipe. The turbo header is bare wit= h an aluminum heat shield to =0A>keep direct radiant heat off the motor mou= nt and lower intake manifold. I'm =0A>afraid to insulate the header,as=C2= =A0rotary exhaust temps are challenging to 321 =0A>stainless steel. =0A>=0A= >Right now, I open the oil door to let heat out after ground runs, and befo= re =0A>addition of the foil, I used to run the shop vac discharge hose in t= he cowl to =0A>move some air too. I need a solution that would allow flying= to another =0A>destination, not just back to my hanger where a fan can coo= l the under-cowl area =0A>so the fiberglass doesn't melt.=0A>Any practical = advise?=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>-----Original Message-----=0A>From: Kelly Troyer =0A>To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>Sent: Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:10 am=0A>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Ques= tions=0A>=0A>=0A>=C2=A0 The only possible downside I can see is=C2=A0turbin= e over-speed at =0A>altitude.........Part of this equation=0A>is based on w= hat rpm your=C2=A0engine will be turning at takeoff and cruise, the =0A>alt= itudes you fly=C2=A0and =0A>=0A>the psru ratio you have (2.17 or 2.85) with= the 2.85 probably averaging 600 to =0A>1000 rpm higher=C2=A0=0A>for both t= akeoff and cruise (fuel flow concerns may also=C2=A0be a personal =0A>facto= r)..........Also your prop=0A>is a factor depending if it is fixed pitch or= constant speed (or in-flight =0A>adjust such as my "IVO").......=0A>=C2=A0= =0A>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0With an adjustable pitch prop you can load the engine= at a lower rpm and =0A>control=C2=A0turbo boost=0A>with the throttle while= being careful to avoid detonation.........The bottom =0A>line is only flig= ht testing =0A>=0A>can determine exactly how your turbo will perform in you= r particular =0A>installation..............Should =0A>=0A>your .81 a/r rati= o turbine housing be a little too tight a .96 a/r ratio "On =0A>Center" hou= sing=C2=A0to fit your =0A>=0A>"P" trim (F1-65mm) turbine wheel is readily a= vailable for less than $300.00 and =0A>the=C2=A0.96 housing is=0A>=C2=A0wor= king well for=C2=A0John Slade and his "IVO"=C2=A0equipped "Cosy"=C2=A0.....= .......=C2=A0=0A>=0A>=C2=A0 Let the group know how all is working once you = get her in the air =0A>!!.............FWIW=0A>Kelly Troyer=0A>"Dyke Delta"_= 13B ROTARY Engine=0A>"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A>"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold= =0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A________________________________=0AFrom: "shipchief= @aol.com" =0A>To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>Sent: Wed, August 18, 2010 6:46:46 PM=0A>Subject: [Fly= Rotary] Re: Turbo Questions=0A>=0A>Correction!!!=0A>I just checked my aircr= aft manual, and the Turbo has a .81 AR. That's pretty =0A>tight for this gr= oup discussion. I guess we will see what happens as I run my =0A>engine at = higher power.=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>-----Original Message-----=0A>From: shipch= ief@aol.com=0A>To: Rotary motors in aircraft = =0A>Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 3:49 pm=0A>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Quest= ions=0A>=0A>=0A>George Kelly and all;=0A>I've been off the list for a while= (work) but today I safety wired the water =0A>pump pulley bolts, as discus= sed in=C2=A0 'one thing leads to another'.=0A>Then I ran my engine for 40 m= inutes @ 1900 RPM. The low voltage that alerted me =0A>to the pully bolts w= as still with me, so I ran the engine with the upper cowl =0A>off, and clim= bed out of the cockpit to have a look. =0A>=0A>I always sat in the plane wh= ile running it before, so this was pretty =0A>informative. I ran it for a w= hile, more than 20 minutes watching the battery =0A>voltage slowly=C2=A0dro= p to 11.9 volts, still the engine ran sweet. I checked =0A>alternator outpu= t; it was just battery voltage, so nothing. I hooked up a =0A>battery charg= er and kept running so I could watch the belt, feel the intake =0A>manifold= and turbo etc. and look for problem areas. I'm feeling good about my =0A>i= nstallation becuase it looks fairly neat and runs smooth and sweet. I'm =0A= >beginning to feel that this is going to be a success story. wink, wink, Tr= acy. I =0A>just need to finish the airplane ;)=0A>About the Turbo:=0A>I'm r= unning a 60-1 P trim compressor=C2=A0and .97 AR On-Center TO-4 turbine=C2= =A0housing=C2=A0( =0A>if I recall correctly) with a water cooled bearing. I= built the exhaust manifold =0A>simply because the Fred Brease mount I boug= ht would=C2=A0not accomodate the cast=C2=A0iron =0A>Mazda Turbo manifold. = =C2=A0I selected the On-Center turbine because I wanted the =0A>design flex= ibility it offered, and in fact I was able to mount the turbo with =0A>the = exhaust oulet facing aft. The down pipe is very short, the intake filter is= =0A>directly on the turbo compressor, and to finally get to my point, my t= urbo is =0A>direct mounted to the engine with a very short but somewhat lar= ge volume 321 =0A>stainless manifold. =0A>=0A>I decided to give up all the = waste gates, blow off valves, remote mounts, flex =0A>joints, etc. and foll= owed Kelly Johnson's addage: "Add Lightness and =0A>Simplicate".=0A>I insta= lled the battery in the back of my RV-8 because RV-8's with Lycoming =0A>IO= -360=C2=A0& constant speed props need to do this for CG reasons. I couldn't= imagine =0A>my 13BT being lighter. Still,=C2=A0lightness is required, so I= work at it.=C2=A0All =0A>those=C2=A0accoutraments have there place, and ma= ybe I will end up needing some or =0A>all of them, but I decided to start w= ith none of them and go forth. I'll add =0A>what ever I end up needing.=0A>= My turbo air pipe is somewhat long, but it does pass by the left side of th= e =0A>cowl where I could mount an intercooler with air exit, so I have that= as a =0A>possibility. If I need a waste gate, I'll just cut a hole in the = exhaust =0A>manifold and TIG weld in a bypass pipe with or without some kin= d of valve....I =0A>have a spot in mind for that too.=0A>I may be over thin= king this whole thing, and that is part of why I build so =0A>slowly.=0A>Bu= t I do=C2=A0have 2.5 hours on the EM-2 hobbs meter!! =0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>--= ---Original Message-----=0A>From: George Lendich =0A>= To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>Sent: Wed, A= ug 18, 2010 2:03 pm=0A>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions=0A>=0A>=0A>= =C2=A0Kelly,=0A>Let us all know how well it goes for you in the real world = application. I can't =0A>help but feel we are trying to fit a square peg in= a round hole with Turbo =0A>application to Aviation needs.=0A>=C2=A0=0A>Pe= rsonally for myself, as I have stated before, I feel that I would use remot= e =0A>mounted turbo, like some cars=C2=A0use (to reduce the heat and flow s= peed to the =0A>turbo) and feed it from a bypass off the exhaust pipe. The = by-pass could be =0A>controlled manually, for (when required) application.= =C2=A0A wastegate does the same =0A>thing but the exhaust is taken right up= to the turbo and carries the heat with =0A>it. I think this would go a lon= g way in controlling heat and over spinning =0A>issues.=0A>=C2=A0=0A>Howeve= r you need the necessary room to make this possible.=0A>George (down under)= =0A>Bob, John and All,=0A>>=0A>>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Well I have b= it the bullet and made my decision for a =0A>>turbo............After much r= esearch, talking to Bob =0A>>=0A>>and John and conferring with a=C2=A0"Turb= onetics" dealer I have ordered a TO4E-50 =0A>>trim (compressor wheel), =0A>= >=0A>>wet bearing housing, big shaft "Q" trim (F1-68mm) turbine wheel and= =C2=A01.15 a/r =0A>>ratio turbine housing.........=0A>>=0A>>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 The decision=C2=A0what size turbine wheel and a/r ratio housing w= as based on the =0A>>fact that the=C2=A0f1-68mm=0A>>turbine and 1.15 a/r ho= using causes less exhaust back pressure than the smaller =0A>>wheel (bigger= hole) and=0A>>will increase rpm less=C2=A0as you increase altitude as oppo= sed to the F1-65mm wheel =0A>>plus the 1.15 a/r ratio=0A>>housing will=C2= =A0slow rpm increase for the same reason............=0A>>=0A>>=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 The decision to go with the 50 trim compressor wheel (Like John)=C2= =A0verses the =0A>>60-1=C2=A0wheel (Like Bob)=C2=A0was =0A>>=0A>>based=C2= =A0the "Flow Maps" of both wheels=C2=A0and my=C2=A0uneducated opinion that = the 50 trim =0A>>wheel would be running =0A>>=0A>>in a more efficient area = of the flow map base on the "Air Consumption Chart" =0A>>(lbs per min) of t= he 1.3L 13B =0A>>=0A>>that I submitted to the group in a previous post.....= ........Of course for all =0A>>practical purposes there is probably=0A>>lit= tle=C2=A0discernible difference between any of these turbo configurations = =0A>>mentioned.............=0A>>=0A>>=C2=A0=C2=A0 At least I have livened u= p the forum for a while =0A>>!!............FWIW..................<:)=0A>>Ke= lly Troyer=0A>>"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=0A>>"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A>>"M= istral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold =0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A________________= ________________=0AFrom: "Rogers, Bob J." =0A>>To: Rotary= motors in aircraft =0A>>Sent: Tue, August 17,= 2010 5:20:49 PM=0A>>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions=0A>>=0A>>=0A>= >Yes, I used the Jet-Hot 2000 coating, shown at this link. =0A>>http://www.= jet-hot.com/headercoatings.html=C2=A0 I think that it is very effective to = =0A>>reduce heat in the engine compartment.=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>It is only appli= ed at the Oklahoma City facility.=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>Bob=0A>>=0A_______________= _________________=0A=0A>>From:Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@l= ancaironline.net] On Behalf Of =0A>>Kelly Troyer=0A>>Sent: Tuesday, August = 17, 2010 3:02 PM=0A>>To: Rotary motors in aircraft=0A>>Subject: [FlyRotary]= Re: Turbo Questions=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>Bob,=0A>>=C2=A0 Did you have your turbi= ne housing=C2=A0and exhaust pipe coated with heat =0Aresistant=0A>>coating = and if so what and where ??.............=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>Thanks,=0A>>=C2=A0= =0A>>Kelly Troyer=0A>>"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=0A>>"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2= =0A>>"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold =0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>=0A_______= _________________________=0A=0A>>From:" Rogers, Bob J. " = =0A>>To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>>Sent: = Mon, August 16, 2010 10:57:22 AM=0A>>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questio= ns=0A>>Kelly,=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>There is one pretty good picture of the turbo = installation (before radiator =0A>>baffling) on our EAA Chapter 1246 websit= e at:=C2=A0 =0A>>http://www.eaa1246.org/projectsnplanesdisplay.asp?id=3D10&= pic=3D190.=C2=A0; Because the =0A>>oil drains from the turbo into a sump th= at is lower than the oil pan, I must use =0A>>an electric pump to transfer = the oil back into the engine oil pan.=C2=A0 Attached is =0A>>a view from th= e front, which shows the hoses and tubing from the turbo =0A>>compressor to= the intercooler and back to the intake manifold.=C2=A0 =0A>>=0A>>=C2=A0=0A= >>Bob=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>=0A________________________________=0A=0A>>From:Rotary= motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of =0A>>= Kelly Troyer=0A>>Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 10:02 AM=0A>>To: Rotary moto= rs in aircraft=0A>>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>= Bob,=0A>>=C2=A0=C2=A0 I am waiting on a clarification=C2=A0 from "Turboneti= cs" as to what size turbine =0A>>wheel=0A>>would=C2=A0turn the least rpm as= altitude increases.............I know the =C2=A0turbine =0A>>housing=0A>>a= /r ratio is a big factor effecting turbine rpm as=C2=A0we climb but it is n= ot clear =0A>>to me=0A>>how=C2=A0the turbine wheel diameter and trim factor= in.............Air density =0A>>lessens with=0A>>altitude but=C2=A0I am no= t smart enough to know=C2=A0if the larger or smaller turbine =0A>>wheel=0A>= >will have the highest rpm because of this factor=C2=A0as we climb ??......= ...=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>=C2=A0 Perhaps I am being anal about this but and you ar= e probably correct that that =0A>>the =0A>>=0A>>effect of=C2=A0a 3mm diamet= er=C2=A0difference between the two turbine wheels is slight and =0A>>=0A>>p= robably inconsequential...........If any of our multi-talented group member= s =0A>>would =0A>>=0A>>like to shine some light on this please jump in here= !!..........=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>=C2=A0 On another note do you happen to have a= ny photos of your 13B/turbo =0A>>installation=0A>>during construction that = you would care to share with the group ??..........You =0A>>have=0A>>a beau= tiful (to Rotorheads) and well thought out installation which from your =0A= >>report=0A>>is working very well and=C2=A0I am sure others of the group wo= uld like to =0A>>plagiarize.....<:)=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>Best Regards,=C2=A0=0A>>= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=0A>>Kelly Troyer=0A>>"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=0A>>= "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A>>"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>=C2= =A0=0A>>=0A________________________________=0A=0A>>From:" Rogers, Bob J. " = =0A>>To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>>Sent: Fri, August 13, 2010 11:49:06 AM=0A>>Subject: [FlyRotary]= Re: Turbo Questions=0A>>Kelly, =0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>I do not know which wheel i= s in my turbo.=C2=A0 I expect the larger wheel (68 mm) to =0A>>turn a littl= e more slowly, since it has a larger surface area to absorb the =0A>>exhaus= t, but it should not make much difference.=C2=A0 Either one should be OK.= =C2=A0 The =0A>>Turbonetics people can probably explain the performance dif= ferences between the =0A>>two wheel sizes.=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>Bob=0A>>=C2=A0=0A= >>=0A________________________________=0A=0A>>From:Rotary motors in aircraft= [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of =0A>>Kelly Troyer=0A>>Se= nt: Thursday, August 12, 2010 3:44 PM=0A>>To: Rotary motors in aircraft=0A>= >Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>Bob,=0A>>=C2=A0 Th= anks much for the info.................Just one more =0A>>question.........= .....Info from "Turbonetics"=0A>>says the 1.15=C2=A0a/r turbine housing is = limited to the F1-65 mm or F1-68 mm turbine =0A>>wheel.......=0A>>=C2=A0 Do= you have info as to what=C2=A0turbine wheel was installed in your 60-1 tur= bo =0A>>??..............=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>Thanks Again,=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>Kelly = Troyer=0A>>"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=0A>>"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A>>"Mistr= al"_Backplate/Oil Manifold =0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>=0A__________________= ______________=0A=0A>>From:" Rogers, Bob J. " =0A>>To: Ro= tary motors in aircraft =0A>>Sent: Thu, August= 12, 2010 1:39:26 PM=0A>>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions=0A>>Kelly= ,=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>I limit my takeoff power to no more than 42 =E2=80=9C of m= anifold pressure (=E2=80=9CMP=E2=80=9D), =0A>>usually just 40=E2=80=9D .=C2= =A0 At altitudes of 5,000 feet and above, I generally run no =0A>>more than= about 36 =E2=80=9C MP (15 GPH) and 180 knots.=C2=A0 Engine RPM is about 5,= 800.=C2=A0 The =0A>>turbo is capable of considerably more boost than this, = but I have to watch =0A>>engine water and oil temps at higher power setting= s.=C2=A0 I do not want to run more =0A>>than 200 degrees on oil or water an= d prefer 180 degrees.=C2=A0 I can maintain these =0A>>temps (even on hot da= ys) with cowl flap settings from closed to full open as =0A>>long as I keep= the power settings at or below those described above.=C2=A0 One day, I =0A= >>climbed to 11,000 feet and my GPS groundspeed (with a slight tailwind) wa= s 213 =0A>>knots.=C2=A0 MP was 36=E2=80=9D, RPM 6,000.=C2=A0 I have a 68=E2= =80=9D diameter x 84 pitch Prince P-tip =0A>>fixed pitch prop coupled to th= e RWS 2.17/1 reduction unit.=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>Bob --0-1568540478-1282746983=:20401 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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"TreadStone Eng." < http://www.treadstoneperformanc= e.com/index.phtml> where I purchased my TO4E-50
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offers&= nbsp;two stainless shields for the "On Center" turbine housing (a little pr= icy) that may help...........Also Bob
=0A
Rogers had his turbine h= ousing and exhaust pipe coated by "Jet Hot" <http://www.jet-hot.com/ > wi= th their
=0A
2000F coating said to be good up to 2450F...........= .Bob said it lowers undercowl temps significantly...........
=0A
B= ob if you read this can you tell us your flight hours and cost and how= it is standing up.................
=0A
 
=0A
 =
=0A
 
=0A
 
=0A
=0A
=0A

T4 Stainl= ess Turbo Heat Shield

=0A

T4 Stainless Steel H= eat Sheild Finally they are here! Conceal that ugly and rusting turbine hou= sing with this beautiful heat shield. Not only do they look incredible, but= they will help reduce under hood temperatures dramatically! These are desi= gned to work on most T4 turbocharger turbine housings 0.58 - 0.96 A/R TANG = and On-Center. Easy bolt on installation! Made from laser cut 304 Stainless= steel, tig welded/show polished in house. We have T3 heat shields in stock= also. Reg Price $139.95 Made in the USA - Show Polished 304 Stainless Stee= l 2 Year warranty!

=0A
$79.95
=0A
 
=0A
=0A
=0A

Turbonetics= Heat Shields

=0A

Great for decreasing under h= ood temperatures, and holding in all that thermal energy! Protect under hoo= d components!

=0A
$10= 2.75
=0A
 
=0A
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
=0A<= TABLE border=3D0 cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 width=3D"85%" align=3Dcent= er>=0A
=0A

JET-HOT 2000 is formulate= d for very high temperatures.  This rugged coating protects substrates= up to 2,450=C2=B0F, heat levels sometimes encountered in Rodding and Off-R= oad applications. It is available in black or grey and has a gritty and rou= gh texture to it.  It can withstand higher temperatures than the EXTRE= ME STERLING.  Some turbo applications see exhaust temps over the 1,700= =C2=BAF limit of EXTREME STERLING, so the JET-HOT 2000 will work better for= those types of vehicles. This coating is only done in our Oklahoma City fa= cility.

=0A

 

=0A

 

=0A

 

=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
3D=
=0A

3D"=

=0A
 
=0A
Kelly Troyer=
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backp= late/Oil Manifold
=0A

=0A

=0A
= =0A
=0AFrom: James Maher <delta11xd@att.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <= flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sen= t: Wed, August 25, 2010 8:41:37 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions
=0A=0A=0A=0A=
=0A
Depending on its proximity to the exhaust, you may= want to replace the aluminum heat shield with a stainless steel one.
= =0A
 
=0A
I too had an aluminum heat shield between the e= xhaust and intake manifolds that melted on the first flight and was found i= n globs in the bottom of the cowling.
=0A
My setup was a tangentia= l muffler inside the cowl, not a turbo.
=0A
This was after nearly = 20 hours of ground running without any problems.
=0A
YMMV
=0A=
 
=0A
Jim Maher

--- On Wed, 8/25/10, shipchief= @aol.com <shipchief@aol.com> wrote:
=0A
From: shipchief@aol.com <shipchief@aol.com>
Subjec= t: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions
To: "Rotary motors in ai= rcraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Date: Wednesday, August 25, = 2010, 1:25 AM

=0A
=0A
ANOTHER TURBO QUESTION:
=0AWhat about turbo insulation. Dave Leonard, you mentioned it before, and I= listened. Now I'm ground running (3 hours!!) and under cowl temps after sh= utdown seem high. I have the Van's foil sheeting on the inside of the cowl = anywhere near the turbo, a sewn insulation cover for the turbo that Dave sa= id would be insufficient, and some kevlar-like welder's drop cloth in a sin= gle wrap around the turbo down pipe. The turbo header is bare with an alumi= num heat shield to keep direct radiant heat off the motor mount and lower i= ntake manifold. I'm afraid to insulate the header,as rotary exhaust te= mps are challenging to 321 stainless steel.
=0A
Right now, I open= the oil door to let heat out after ground runs, and before addition of the= foil, I used to run the shop vac discharge hose in the cowl to move some a= ir too. I need a solution that would allow flying to another destination, n= ot just back to my hanger where a fan can cool the under-cowl area so the f= iberglass doesn't melt.
=0A
Any practical advise?
=0A

=0A
-----Original Message-----
From= : Kelly Troyer <keltro@att.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <= flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:10 am
Subje= ct: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions

=0A
=0A=0A=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
&n= bsp; The only possible downside I can see is turbine over-speed at alt= itude.........Part of this equation
=0A
is based on what rpm your&= nbsp;engine will be turning at takeoff and cruise, the altitudes you fly&nb= sp;and
=0A
the psru ratio you have (2.17 or 2.85) with the 2.85 p= robably averaging 600 to 1000 rpm higher 
=0A
for both takeof= f and cruise (fuel flow concerns may also be a personal factor).......= ...Also your prop
=0A
is a factor depending if it is fixed pitch o= r constant speed (or in-flight adjust such as my "IVO").......
=0A 
   With an adjustable pitch prop you can load the= engine at a lower rpm and control turbo boost
=0A
with the t= hrottle while being careful to avoid detonation.........The bottom line is = only flight testing
=0A
can determine exactly how your turbo will= perform in your particular installation..............Should
=0A
= your .81 a/r ratio turbine housing be a little too tight a .96 a/r ratio "O= n Center" housing to fit your
=0A
"P" trim (F1-65mm) turbine= wheel is readily available for less than $300.00 and the .96 housing = is
=0A
 working well for John Slade and his "IVO" e= quipped "Cosy" ............ 
=0A
 
=0A
&nb= sp; Let the group know how all is working once you get her in the air !!...= ..........FWIW
=0A
 
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B RO= TARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold =0A
=0A

=0A
=0A
=0AFrom: "shipchief@aol.com" <shipchief@aol.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wed, August 18, 2010 6:46:46 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions<= BR>
=0A
Correction!= !!
=0A
I just checked my aircraft manual, and the Turbo has a .81 = AR. That's pretty tight for this group discussion. I guess we will see what= happens as I run my engine at higher power.

=0A


=0A
-----Original Message-----
From: shipchief@aol.com
To: Rotary motors in a= ircraft <flyrotary@lancaironl= ine.net>
Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 3:49 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Re: Turbo Questions

=0A
=0AGeorge Kelly and all;
=0A
I've been off the list for a while (w= ork) but today I safety wired the water pump pulley bolts, as discussed in&= nbsp; 'one thing leads to another'.
=0A
Then I ran my engine for 4= 0 minutes @ 1900 RPM. The low voltage that alerted me to the pully bolts wa= s still with me, so I ran the engine with the upper cowl off, and climbed o= ut of the cockpit to have a look.
=0A
I always sat in the plane w= hile running it before, so this was pretty informative. I ran it for a whil= e, more than 20 minutes watching the battery voltage slowly drop to 11= .9 volts, still the engine ran sweet. I checked alternator output; it was j= ust battery voltage, so nothing. I hooked up a battery charger and kept run= ning so I could watch the belt, feel the intake manifold and turbo etc. and= look for problem areas. I'm feeling good about my installation becuase it = looks fairly neat and runs smooth and sweet. I'm beginning to feel that thi= s is going to be a success story. wink, wink, Tracy. I just need to finish = the airplane ;)
=0A
About the Turbo:
=0A
I'm running a 60= -1 P trim compressor and .97 AR On-Center TO-4 turbine housing&nb= sp;( if I recall correctly) with a water cooled bearing. I built the exhaus= t manifold simply because the Fred Brease mount I bought would not acc= omodate the cast iron Mazda Turbo manifold.  I selected the On-Ce= nter turbine because I wanted the design flexibility it offered, and in fac= t I was able to mount the turbo with the exhaust oulet facing aft. The down= pipe is very short, the intake filter is directly on the turbo compressor,= and to finally get to my point, my turbo is direct mounted to the engine w= ith a very short but somewhat large volume 321 stainless manifold.
= =0A
I decided to give up all the waste gates, blow off valves, remote m= ounts, flex joints, etc. and followed Kelly Johnson's addage: "Add Lightnes= s and Simplicate".
=0A
I installed the battery in the back of my R= V-8 because RV-8's with Lycoming IO-360 & constant speed props nee= d to do this for CG reasons. I couldn't imagine my 13BT being lighter. Stil= l, lightness is required, so I work at it. All those accoutr= aments have there place, and maybe I will end up needing some or all of the= m, but I decided to start with none of them and go forth. I'll add what eve= r I end up needing.
=0A
My turbo air pipe is somewhat long, but it= does pass by the left side of the cowl where I could mount an intercooler = with air exit, so I have that as a possibility. If I need a waste gate, I'l= l just cut a hole in the exhaust manifold and TIG weld in a bypass pipe wit= h or without some kind of valve....I have a spot in mind for that too.=0A
I may be over thinking this whole thing, and that is part of why I= build so slowly.
=0A
But I do have 2.5 hours on the EM-2 hob= bs meter!!

=0A


=0A--= ---Original Message-----
From: George Lendich <lendich@aanet.com.au>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft= <flyrotary@lancaironline.net= >
Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 2:03 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Tur= bo Questions

=0A
=0A=0A=0A=
=0A
<= FONT color=3Dnavy size=3D2 face=3DArial>Yes, I used the Jet-Hot 2000 coating, shown a= t this link. http://www.jet-hot.com/headercoatings.html  = I think that it is very effective to reduce heat in the engine compartment.=
=0A
 
=0A
It is only applied at the Oklahoma City= facility.
=0A
 
=0A
Bob
=0A=0A
=0A
=0A=0A
From:<= /SPAN> Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Kelly Troyer
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 3:02= PM
To: Rotary motors in= aircraft
Subject: [FlyR= otary] Re: Turbo Questions
=0A
 
=0A
=0A
=0A
Bob,
=0A
=0A
  Did you have your turbine housing&nbs= p;and exhaust pipe coated with heat resistant
=0A<= DIV>=0A
coating and if so what and = where ??.............
=0A
=0A
 
=0A
=0A
Thanks,
 
=0A
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_1= 3B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold =
=0A
=0A
 
=0A
=0A
 
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
= Fro= m: " Rogers, Bob J. " <BRogers@FDIC.gov>
= To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Mon, August 16, 2010 10:57:22 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Ques= tions
=0A
=0A
Kelly,
=0A
 
= =0A
There= is one pretty good picture of the turbo installation (before radiator baff= ling) on our EAA Chapter 1246 website at:  http://www.eaa1246.org/projectsnplanesdisplay.asp?id=3D= 10&pic=3D190. ; Because the oil drains from the turbo into a s= ump that is lower than the oil pan, I must use an electric pump to transfer= the oil back into the engine oil pan.  Attached is a view from the fr= ont, which shows the hoses and tubing from the turbo compressor to the inte= rcooler and back to the intake manifold. 
=0A
 
=0A
Bob
=0A
 
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
From:<= /B> Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Kelly Troyer
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 10:02 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
<= B>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Tur= bo Questions
=0A
<= /SPAN> 
=0A
=0A
=0A
Bob,
=0A
=0A
   I am waiting on a clarification  from "T= urbonetics" as to what size turbine wheel
=0A
= =0A
would turn the least rpm a= s altitude increases.............I know the  turbine housing
=0A
=0A
a/r r= atio is a big factor effecting turbine rpm as we climb but it is not c= lear to me
=0A
=0A
how the turbine wheel diameter and trim factor in........= .....Air density lessens with
=0A
=0A
altitude but I am not smart enough to = know if the larger or smaller turbine wheel
= =0A
=0A
= will have the highest r= pm because of this factor as we climb ??.........
<= /DIV>=0A
=0A
&nbs= p;
=0A
=0A
  Pe= rhaps I am being anal about this but and you are probably correct that that= the
=0A
=0A
effect of a 3mm diameter difference between the two turbi= ne wheels is slight and
=0A
=0A
probably inconsequential...........If any of our= multi-talented group members would
=0A
=0Alike to shine some light on this p= lease jump in here !!..........
=0A
=0A
 
=0A
= =0A
  On another note do you h= appen to have any photos of your 13B/turbo installation
=
=0A
=0A
during constructi= on that you would care to share with the group ??..........You have<= /FONT>
=0A
=0A
a bea= utiful (to Rotorheads) and well thought out installation which from your re= port
=0A
=0A
is working very well and I am sure others of the group would li= ke to plagiarize.....<:)
=0A
=0A
 
=0A
=0A<= DIV class=3Dyiv1490170641MsoNormal>Best Regards, <= /DIV>
=0A
=0A
  =  
=0A
Kelly Troyer
"= Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
=0A
=0A
 
=0A
=0A
<= FONT size=3D3 face=3DArial> 
=0A
=0A
= =0A
=0A
=0A
From:= " Rogers, Bob J. " <BRogers@FDIC.gov>
To:<= /SPAN> Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Fri, August 13, 2010 11:49:06 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questio= ns
=0A
=0A
Kelly,
=0A
 
= =0A
I do = not know which wheel is in my turbo.  I expect the larger wheel (68 mm= ) to turn a little more slowly, since it has a larger surface area to absor= b the exhaust, but it should not make much difference.  Either one sho= uld be OK.  The Turbonetics people can probably explain the performanc= e differences between the two wheel sizes.
=0A
&nbs= p;
=0A
Bob
=0A
 
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Kelly Troyer
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 3:44 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Q= uestions
=0A
 
=0A
=0A
=0A
Bob,
=0A
=0A
  Thanks much for the info.................Just one more = question..............Info from "Turbonetics"
says the 1.15 a/r tur= bine housing is limited to the F1-65 mm or F1-68 mm turbine wheel.......
=0A
=0A
=   Do you have info as to what turbine wheel was installed in your= 60-1 turbo ??..............
=0A
=0A
 
=0A
=0A<= DIV class=3Dyiv1490170641MsoNormal>Thanks Again,
<= /DIV>=0A
=0A
&nbs= p;
=0A
Kelly Troyer
"= Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/= Oil Manifold
=0A
=0A
 
=0A
=0A
 
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
From: " Rogers, Bob J. " <BRogers@FDIC.gov>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thu, August 12, 2010 1:39:26 = PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Re: Turbo Questions
=0A
Kelly,
=0A
&nbs= p;
=0A
I limit my takeoff power to no more than 42 =E2=80=9C of manifold pressure (=E2=80=9CMP=E2=80=9D), usually = just 40=E2=80=9D .  At altitudes of 5,000 feet and above, I generally = run no more than about 36 =E2=80=9C MP (15 GPH) and 180 knots.  Engine= RPM is about 5,800.  The turbo is capable of considerably more boost = than this, but I have to watch engine water and oil temps at higher power s= ettings.  I do not want to run more than 200 degrees on oil or water a= nd prefer 180 degrees.  I can maintain these temps (even on hot days) = with cowl flap settings from closed to full open as long as I keep the powe= r settings at or below those described above.  One day, I climbed to 1= 1,000 feet and my GPS groundspeed (with a slight tailwind) was 213 knots.&n= bsp; MP was 36=E2=80=9D, RPM 6,000.  I have a 68=E2=80=9D diameter x 84 pitch Prince P-tip fixed pitch prop coupled to t= he RWS 2.17/1 reduction unit.
=0A
 
=0A= Bob=
--0-1568540478-1282746983=:20401--