X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com ([69.147.92.117] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.8) with SMTP id 4443203 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 09:42:14 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=69.147.92.117; envelope-from=delta11xd@att.net Received: (qmail 13944 invoked by uid 60001); 25 Aug 2010 13:41:38 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1282743698; bh=x95/BGxO3wjDpFi9sTTDyxQ9eAxTAIoOdVpqehoF8ms=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=MgaZ90rFtBKh1fi8ag/Ap545nEA5KkPNCSSnuO+damgqp71FvUoNmj+QTsJa0D9aXZDapSvBBT6uBK4b/dwKrkUxBp5RyO6ocqn+Scpmn7xFHuj8V60YzLc0LCtd65ur9+OhGt6j911yltgJwnb+odok2YXlN1ynfgdrNnignxI= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=att.net; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=DH8Mx7Zv/APXmWNpoGeXigPfwe9HzVCY+5nesxgI/bWtqNsb4TbA1v49ZYaqwAEn5mmEpW2vs8xzYnmLQwv/fkrT9zPXAE6eLmjeY0Yvj9iRocfDvkGuwZCUBfXNLJhEUV0SUkrrwmJ5q2AmFRcVWLK5Nt7TEqR6xrgiSUBonRw=; Message-ID: <359728.11858.qm@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: jh9j_8sVM1kiPsrf8T4uvVQpD27p5EQ2pt.8HNsCkrnZ079 dpWplpCFlzXsiuj2uVZo5YyKOOXjiWqxJJFdfL1KZELquZfFDiYd88KFQlTI JZBenZWtT53fFX19PJMI.6iNkNqzWSbefpRndUFGgWq08GHRcpT_S6p2mGMB L3FRN8WmRPiyifSNzUsWup9kHGf7T3cZV.6xPLUngInRKw9.fu8FWRQQVFzI 3r_oa8xO2SlZzaUB_mD3iF0m3nULCs8QfQQ.aXU0TEBrqBuMA3gfCoK17_uU 1uzfqeY9xjyH04Q1fgj53ZBSz4R74kRdFYI7nv4eG6eWt5sN3wQbx5Z3yNUZ sho67UFina2TUCyQ- Received: from [75.22.162.93] by web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 06:41:37 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailClassic/11.3.2 YahooMailWebService/0.8.105.279950 Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 06:41:37 -0700 (PDT) From: James Maher Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-2092557538-1282743697=:11858" --0-2092557538-1282743697=:11858 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Depending on its proximity to the exhaust, you may want to replace the alum= inum heat shield with a stainless steel one. =C2=A0 I too had an aluminum heat shield between the exhaust and intake manifolds = that melted on the first flight and was found in globs in the bottom of the= cowling. My setup was a tangential muffler inside the cowl, not a turbo. This was after nearly 20 hours of ground running without any problems. YMMV =C2=A0 Jim Maher --- On Wed, 8/25/10, shipchief@aol.com wrote: From: shipchief@aol.com Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Date: Wednesday, August 25, 2010, 1:25 AM ANOTHER TURBO QUESTION: What about turbo insulation. Dave Leonard, you mentioned it before, and I l= istened. Now I'm ground running (3 hours!!) and under cowl temps after shut= down seem high. I have the Van's foil sheeting on the inside of the cowl an= ywhere near the turbo, a sewn insulation cover for the turbo that Dave said= would be insufficient, and some kevlar-like welder's drop cloth in a singl= e wrap around the turbo down pipe. The turbo header is bare with an aluminu= m heat shield to keep direct radiant heat off the motor mount and lower int= ake manifold. I'm afraid to insulate the header,as=C2=A0rotary exhaust temp= s are challenging to 321 stainless steel.=20 Right now, I open the oil door to let heat out after ground runs, and befor= e addition of the foil, I used to run the shop vac discharge hose in the co= wl to move some air too. I need a solution that would allow flying to anoth= er destination, not just back to my hanger where a fan can cool the under-c= owl area so the fiberglass doesn't melt. Any practical advise? -----Original Message----- From: Kelly Troyer To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:10 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions #yiv1490170641 #yiv1490170641AOLMsgPart_2_b50f6374-1c3e-4d4e-9016-3a9d9b588= d05 td{color:black;}#yiv1490170641 #yiv1490170641AOLMsgPart_2_b50f6374-1c3e= -4d4e-9016-3a9d9b588d05 DIV {margin:0px;} =C2=A0 The only possible downside I can see is=C2=A0turbine over-speed at a= ltitude.........Part of this equation is based on what rpm your=C2=A0engine will be turning at takeoff and cruise= , the altitudes you fly=C2=A0and=20 the psru ratio you have (2.17 or 2.85) with the 2.85 probably averaging 600= to 1000 rpm higher=C2=A0 for both takeoff and cruise (fuel flow concerns may also=C2=A0be a personal= factor)..........Also your prop is a factor depending if it is fixed pitch or constant speed (or in-flight = adjust such as my "IVO")....... =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0With an adjustable pitch prop you can load the engine at = a lower rpm and control=C2=A0turbo boost with the throttle while being careful to avoid detonation.........The botto= m line is only flight testing=20 can determine exactly how your turbo will perform in your particular instal= lation..............Should=20 your .81 a/r ratio turbine housing be a little too tight a .96 a/r ratio "O= n Center" housing=C2=A0to fit your=20 "P" trim (F1-65mm) turbine wheel is readily available for less than $300.00= and the=C2=A0.96 housing is =C2=A0working well for=C2=A0John Slade and his "IVO"=C2=A0equipped "Cosy"= =C2=A0............=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Let the group know how all is working once you get her in the air !!= .............FWIW =C2=A0Kelly Troyer "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 From: "shipchief@aol.com" To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Wed, August 18, 2010 6:46:46 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions Correction!!! I just checked my aircraft manual, and the Turbo has a .81 AR. That's prett= y tight for this group discussion. I guess we will see what happens as I ru= n my engine at higher power. -----Original Message----- From: shipchief@aol.com To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 3:49 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions George Kelly and all; I've been off the list for a while (work) but today I safety wired the wate= r pump pulley bolts, as discussed in=C2=A0 'one thing leads to another'. Then I ran my engine for 40 minutes @ 1900 RPM. The low voltage that alerte= d me to the pully bolts was still with me, so I ran the engine with the upp= er cowl off, and climbed out of the cockpit to have a look.=20 I always sat in the plane while running it before, so this was pretty infor= mative. I ran it for a while, more than 20 minutes watching the battery vol= tage slowly=C2=A0drop to 11.9 volts, still the engine ran sweet. I checked = alternator output; it was just battery voltage, so nothing. I hooked up a b= attery charger and kept running so I could watch the belt, feel the intake = manifold and turbo etc. and look for problem areas. I'm feeling good about = my installation becuase it looks fairly neat and runs smooth and sweet. I'm= beginning to feel that this is going to be a success story. wink, wink, Tr= acy. I just need to finish the airplane ;) About the Turbo: I'm running a 60-1 P trim compressor=C2=A0and .97 AR On-Center TO-4 turbine= =C2=A0housing=C2=A0( if I recall correctly) with a water cooled bearing. I = built the exhaust manifold simply because the Fred Brease mount I bought wo= uld=C2=A0not accomodate the cast=C2=A0iron Mazda Turbo manifold. =C2=A0I se= lected the On-Center turbine because I wanted the design flexibility it off= ered, and in fact I was able to mount the turbo with the exhaust oulet faci= ng aft. The down pipe is very short, the intake filter is directly on the t= urbo compressor, and to finally get to my point, my turbo is direct mounted= to the engine with a very short but somewhat large volume 321 stainless ma= nifold.=20 I decided to give up all the waste gates, blow off valves, remote mounts, f= lex joints, etc. and followed Kelly Johnson's addage: "Add Lightness and Si= mplicate". I installed the battery in the back of my RV-8 because RV-8's with Lycoming= IO-360=C2=A0& constant speed props need to do this for CG reasons. I could= n't imagine my 13BT being lighter. Still,=C2=A0lightness is required, so I = work at it.=C2=A0All those=C2=A0accoutraments have there place, and maybe I= will end up needing some or all of them, but I decided to start with none = of them and go forth. I'll add what ever I end up needing. My turbo air pipe is somewhat long, but it does pass by the left side of th= e cowl where I could mount an intercooler with air exit, so I have that as = a possibility. If I need a waste gate, I'll just cut a hole in the exhaust = manifold and TIG weld in a bypass pipe with or without some kind of valve..= ..I have a spot in mind for that too. I may be over thinking this whole thing, and that is part of why I build so= slowly. But I do=C2=A0have 2.5 hours on the EM-2 hobbs meter!!=20 -----Original Message----- From: George Lendich To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 2:03 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions #yiv1490170641 #yiv1490170641AOLMsgPart_2_b50f6374-1c3e-4d4e-9016-3a9d9b588= d05 td{color:black;}#yiv1490170641 #yiv1490170641AOLMsgPart_2_b50f6374-1c3e= -4d4e-9016-3a9d9b588d05 #yiv1490170641AOLMsgPart_2_01f462c6-6dd5-4e25-9dd0-= 6980caec9993 td{color:black;}#yiv1490170641 #yiv1490170641AOLMsgPart_2_b50f= 6374-1c3e-4d4e-9016-3a9d9b588d05 #yiv1490170641AOLMsgPart_2_01f462c6-6dd5-4= e25-9dd0-6980caec9993 #yiv1490170641AOLMsgPart_2_0aa393c6-be48-485b-8002-dd= ec36f2bda6 td{color:black;}#yiv1490170641 #yiv1490170641AOLMsgPart_2_b50f63= 74-1c3e-4d4e-9016-3a9d9b588d05 #yiv1490170641AOLMsgPart_2_01f462c6-6dd5-4e2= 5-9dd0-6980caec9993 #yiv1490170641AOLMsgPart_2_0aa393c6-be48-485b-8002-ddec= 36f2bda6 DIV {MARGIN:0px;} =C2=A0Kelly, Let us all know how well it goes for you in the real world application. I c= an't help but feel we are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole with T= urbo application to Aviation needs. =C2=A0 Personally for myself, as I have stated before, I feel that I would use rem= ote mounted turbo, like some cars=C2=A0use (to reduce the heat and flow spe= ed to the turbo) and feed it from a bypass off the exhaust pipe. The by-pas= s could be controlled manually, for (when required) application.=C2=A0A was= tegate does the same thing but the exhaust is taken right up to the turbo a= nd carries the heat with it. I think this would go a long way in controllin= g heat and over spinning issues. =C2=A0 However you need the necessary room to make this possible. George (down under) Bob, John and All, =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Well I have bit the bullet and made my decisi= on for a turbo............After much research, talking to Bob=20 and John and conferring with a=C2=A0"Turbonetics" dealer I have ordered a T= O4E-50 trim (compressor wheel),=20 wet bearing housing, big shaft "Q" trim (F1-68mm) turbine wheel and=C2=A01.= 15 a/r ratio turbine housing......... =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The decision=C2=A0what size turbine wheel and a/r = ratio housing was based on the fact that the=C2=A0f1-68mm turbine and 1.15 a/r housing causes less exhaust back pressure than the sma= ller wheel (bigger hole) and will increase rpm less=C2=A0as you increase altitude as opposed to the F1-6= 5mm wheel plus the 1.15 a/r ratio housing will=C2=A0slow rpm increase for the same reason............ =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The decision to go with the 50 trim compressor wheel (Li= ke John)=C2=A0verses the 60-1=C2=A0wheel (Like Bob)=C2=A0was=20 based=C2=A0the "Flow Maps" of both wheels=C2=A0and my=C2=A0uneducated opini= on that the 50 trim wheel would be running=20 in a more efficient area of the flow map base on the "Air Consumption Chart= " (lbs per min) of the 1.3L 13B=20 that I submitted to the group in a previous post.............Of course for = all practical purposes there is probably little=C2=A0discernible difference between any of these turbo configuration= s mentioned............. =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 At least I have livened up the forum for a while !!...........= .FWIW..................<:) =C2=A0Kelly Troyer "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 From: "Rogers, Bob J." To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Tue, August 17, 2010 5:20:49 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions #yiv1490170641 #yiv1490170641AOLMsgPart_2_b50f6374-1c3e-4d4e-9016-3a9d9b588= d05 td{color:black;}#yiv1490170641 #yiv1490170641AOLMsgPart_2_b50f6374-1c3e= -4d4e-9016-3a9d9b588d05 #yiv1490170641AOLMsgPart_2_01f462c6-6dd5-4e25-9dd0-= 6980caec9993 td{color:black;}#yiv1490170641 #yiv1490170641AOLMsgPart_2_b50f= 6374-1c3e-4d4e-9016-3a9d9b588d05 #yiv1490170641AOLMsgPart_2_01f462c6-6dd5-4= e25-9dd0-6980caec9993 #yiv1490170641AOLMsgPart_2_0aa393c6-be48-485b-8002-dd= ec36f2bda6 td{color:black;}#yiv1490170641 #yiv1490170641AOLMsgPart_2_b50f63= 74-1c3e-4d4e-9016-3a9d9b588d05 #yiv1490170641AOLMsgPart_2_01f462c6-6dd5-4e2= 5-9dd0-6980caec9993 #yiv1490170641AOLMsgPart_2_0aa393c6-be48-485b-8002-ddec= 36f2bda6 v00003a* {}#yiv1490170641 #yiv1490170641AOLMsgPart_2_b50f6374-1c3e= -4d4e-9016-3a9d9b588d05 #yiv1490170641AOLMsgPart_2_01f462c6-6dd5-4e25-9dd0-= 6980caec9993 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span.yiv1490170641emailstyle18=20 {font-family:Arial;color:navy;}#yiv1490170641 #yiv1490170641AOLMsgPart_2_b= 50f6374-1c3e-4d4e-9016-3a9d9b588d05 #yiv1490170641AOLMsgPart_2_01f462c6-6dd= 5-4e25-9dd0-6980caec9993 #yiv1490170641AOLMsgPart_2_0aa393c6-be48-485b-8002= -ddec36f2bda6 span.yiv1490170641emailstyle20 {font-family:Arial;color:navy= ;}#yiv1490170641 #yiv1490170641AOLMsgPart_2_b50f6374-1c3e-4d4e-9016-3a9d9b5= 88d05 #yiv1490170641AOLMsgPart_2_01f462c6-6dd5-4e25-9dd0-6980caec9993 #yiv1= 490170641AOLMsgPart_2_0aa393c6-be48-485b-8002-ddec36f2bda6 span.yiv14901706= 41grame {}#yiv1490170641 #yiv1490170641AOLMsgPart_2_b50f6374-1c3e-4d4e-90= 16-3a9d9b588d05 #yiv1490170641AOLMsgPart_2_01f462c6-6dd5-4e25-9dd0-6980caec= 9993 #yiv1490170641AOLMsgPart_2_0aa393c6-be48-485b-8002-ddec36f2bda6 span.y= iv1490170641EmailStyle21 {font-family:Arial;color:navy;}#yiv1490170641 #yi= v1490170641AOLMsgPart_2_b50f6374-1c3e-4d4e-9016-3a9d9b588d05 #yiv1490170641= AOLMsgPart_2_01f462c6-6dd5-4e25-9dd0-6980caec9993 #yiv1490170641AOLMsgPart_2_0aa393c6-be48-485b-8002-ddec36f2bda6 span.yiv14= 90170641GramE {}#yiv1490170641 #yiv1490170641AOLMsgPart_2_b50f6374-1c3e-4d= 4e-9016-3a9d9b588d05 #yiv1490170641AOLMsgPart_2_01f462c6-6dd5-4e25-9dd0-698= 0caec9993 #yiv1490170641AOLMsgPart_2_0aa393c6-be48-485b-8002-ddec36f2bda6 f= iltered {margin:72.0pt 36.0pt 36.0pt 36.0pt;}#yiv1490170641 #yiv1490170641A= OLMsgPart_2_b50f6374-1c3e-4d4e-9016-3a9d9b588d05 #yiv1490170641AOLMsgPart_2= _01f462c6-6dd5-4e25-9dd0-6980caec9993 #yiv1490170641AOLMsgPart_2_0aa393c6-b= e48-485b-8002-ddec36f2bda6 div.yiv1490170641Section1 {} Yes, I used the Jet-Hot 2000 coating, shown at this link. http://www.jet-ho= t.com/headercoatings.html=C2=A0 I think that it is very effective to reduce= heat in the engine compartment. =C2=A0 It is only applied at the Oklahoma City facility. =C2=A0 Bob From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beh= alf Of Kelly Troyer Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 3:02 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions =C2=A0 Bob, =C2=A0 Did you have your turbine housing=C2=A0and exhaust pipe coated with = heat resistant coating and if so what and where ??............. =C2=A0 Thanks, =C2=A0 Kelly Troyer "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 From: " Rogers, Bob J. " To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Mon, August 16, 2010 10:57:22 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions Kelly, =C2=A0 There is one pretty good picture of the turbo installation (before radiator= baffling) on our EAA Chapter 1246 website at:=C2=A0 http://www.eaa1246.org= /projectsnplanesdisplay.asp?id=3D10&pic=3D190.=C2=A0; Because the oil drain= s from the turbo into a sump that is lower than the oil pan, I must use an = electric pump to transfer the oil back into the engine oil pan.=C2=A0 Attac= hed is a view from the front, which shows the hoses and tubing from the tur= bo compressor to the intercooler and back to the intake manifold.=C2=A0=20 =C2=A0 Bob =C2=A0 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beh= alf Of Kelly Troyer Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 10:02 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions =C2=A0 Bob, =C2=A0=C2=A0 I am waiting on a clarification=C2=A0 from "Turbonetics" as to= what size turbine wheel would=C2=A0turn the least rpm as altitude increases.............I know the = =C2=A0turbine housing a/r ratio is a big factor effecting turbine rpm as=C2=A0we climb but it is = not clear to me how=C2=A0the turbine wheel diameter and trim factor in.............Air dens= ity lessens with altitude but=C2=A0I am not smart enough to know=C2=A0if the larger or small= er turbine wheel will have the highest rpm because of this factor=C2=A0as we climb ??.......= .. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Perhaps I am being anal about this but and you are probably correct = that that the=20 effect of=C2=A0a 3mm diameter=C2=A0difference between the two turbine wheel= s is slight and=20 probably inconsequential...........If any of our multi-talented group membe= rs would=20 like to shine some light on this please jump in here !!.......... =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On another note do you happen to have any photos of your 13B/turbo i= nstallation during construction that you would care to share with the group ??.........= .You have a beautiful (to Rotorheads) and well thought out installation which from yo= ur report is working very well and=C2=A0I am sure others of the group would like to p= lagiarize.....<:) =C2=A0 Best Regards,=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Kelly Troyer "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 From: " Rogers, Bob J. " To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Fri, August 13, 2010 11:49:06 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions Kelly,=20 =C2=A0 I do not know which wheel is in my turbo.=C2=A0 I expect the larger wheel (= 68 mm) to turn a little more slowly, since it has a larger surface area to = absorb the exhaust, but it should not make much difference.=C2=A0 Either on= e should be OK.=C2=A0 The Turbonetics people can probably explain the perfo= rmance differences between the two wheel sizes. =C2=A0 Bob =C2=A0 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beh= alf Of Kelly Troyer Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 3:44 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions =C2=A0 Bob, =C2=A0 Thanks much for the info.................Just one more question.....= .........Info from "Turbonetics" says the 1.15=C2=A0a/r turbine housing is limited to the F1-65 mm or F1-68 = mm turbine wheel....... =C2=A0 Do you have info as to what=C2=A0turbine wheel was installed in your= 60-1 turbo ??.............. =C2=A0 Thanks Again, =C2=A0 Kelly Troyer "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 From: " Rogers, Bob J. " To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Thu, August 12, 2010 1:39:26 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions Kelly, =C2=A0 I limit my takeoff power to no more than 42 =E2=80=9C of manifold pressure = (=E2=80=9CMP=E2=80=9D), usually just 40=E2=80=9D .=C2=A0 At altitudes of 5,= 000 feet and above, I generally run no more than about 36 =E2=80=9C MP (15 = GPH) and 180 knots.=C2=A0 Engine RPM is about 5,800.=C2=A0 The turbo is cap= able of considerably more boost than this, but I have to watch engine water= and oil temps at higher power settings.=C2=A0 I do not want to run more th= an 200 degrees on oil or water and prefer 180 degrees.=C2=A0 I can maintain= these temps (even on hot days) with cowl flap settings from closed to full= open as long as I keep the power settings at or below those described abov= e.=C2=A0 One day, I climbed to 11,000 feet and my GPS groundspeed (with a s= light tailwind) was 213 knots.=C2=A0 MP was 36=E2=80=9D, RPM 6,000.=C2=A0 I= have a 68=E2=80=9D diameter x 84 pitch Prince P-tip fixed pitch prop coupl= ed to the RWS 2.17/1 reduction unit. =C2=A0 Bob --0-2092557538-1282743697=:11858 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Depending on its proximity to the exhaus= t, you may want to replace the aluminum heat shield with a stainless steel = one.
 
I too had an aluminum heat shield between the exhaust and intake manif= olds that melted on the first flight and was found in globs in the bottom o= f the cowling.
My setup was a tangential muffler inside the cowl, not a turbo.
This was after nearly 20 hours of ground running without any problems.=
YMMV
 
Jim Maher

--- On Wed, 8/25/10, shipchief@aol.com <ship= chief@aol.com> wrote:

From: shipchief@aol.com <shipchief@aol.com>=
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions
To: "Rotary mo= tors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Date: Wednesday, A= ugust 25, 2010, 1:25 AM

ANOTHER TURBO QUESTION:
What about turbo insulation. Dave Leonard, you mentioned it before, an= d I listened. Now I'm ground running (3 hours!!) and under cowl temps after= shutdown seem high. I have the Van's foil sheeting on the inside of the co= wl anywhere near the turbo, a sewn insulation cover for the turbo that Dave= said would be insufficient, and some kevlar-like welder's drop cloth in a = single wrap around the turbo down pipe. The turbo header is bare with an al= uminum heat shield to keep direct radiant heat off the motor mount and lowe= r intake manifold. I'm afraid to insulate the header,as rotary exhaust= temps are challenging to 321 stainless steel.
Right now, I open the oil door to let heat out after ground runs, and = before addition of the foil, I used to run the shop vac discharge hose in t= he cowl to move some air too. I need a solution that would allow flying to = another destination, not just back to my hanger where a fan can cool the un= der-cowl area so the fiberglass doesn't melt.
Any practical advise?


-----Original Message-----
From: Kelly Troyer <keltro@att.net>To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent:= Sat, Aug 21, 2010 9:10 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions
<= BR>
  The only possible downside I can see is turbine over-speed= at altitude.........Part of this equation
is based on what rpm your engine will be turning at takeoff and c= ruise, the altitudes you fly and
the psru ratio you have (2.17 or 2.85) with the 2.85 probably averagin= g 600 to 1000 rpm higher 
for both takeoff and cruise (fuel flow concerns may also be a per= sonal factor)..........Also your prop
is a factor depending if it is fixed pitch or constant speed (or in-fl= ight adjust such as my "IVO").......
 
   With an adjustable pitch prop you can load= the engine at a lower rpm and control turbo boost
with the throttle while being careful to avoid detonation.........The = bottom line is only flight testing
can determine exactly how your turbo will perform in your particular i= nstallation..............Should
your .81 a/r ratio turbine housing be a little too tight a .96 a/r rat= io "On Center" housing to fit your
"P" trim (F1-65mm) turbine wheel is readily available for less than $3= 00.00 and the .96 housing is
 working well for John Slade and his "IVO" equipped "Co= sy" ............ 
 
  Let the group know how all is working once you get her in the a= ir !!.............FWIW
 
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD= 1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20

<= BR>
From: "shipchief@aol.com" &l= t;shi= pchief@aol.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net= >
Sent: Wed, Augu= st 18, 2010 6:46:46 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions

Correction!!!
I just checked my aircraft manual, and the Turbo has a .81 AR. That's = pretty tight for this group discussion. I guess we will see what happens as= I run my engine at higher power.



-----Original Message-----
From: shipchief@aol.com
To: Rotary motors = in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent:= Wed, Aug 18, 2010 3:49 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions
<= BR>
George Kelly and all;
I've been off the list for a while (work) but today I safety wired the= water pump pulley bolts, as discussed in  'one thing leads to another= '.
Then I ran my engine for 40 minutes @ 1900 RPM. The low voltage that a= lerted me to the pully bolts was still with me, so I ran the engine with th= e upper cowl off, and climbed out of the cockpit to have a look.
I always sat in the plane while running it before, so this was pretty = informative. I ran it for a while, more than 20 minutes watching the batter= y voltage slowly drop to 11.9 volts, still the engine ran sweet. I che= cked alternator output; it was just battery voltage, so nothing. I hooked u= p a battery charger and kept running so I could watch the belt, feel the in= take manifold and turbo etc. and look for problem areas. I'm feeling good a= bout my installation becuase it looks fairly neat and runs smooth and sweet= . I'm beginning to feel that this is going to be a success story. wink, win= k, Tracy. I just need to finish the airplane ;)
About the Turbo:
I'm running a 60-1 P trim compressor and .97 AR On-Center TO-4 tu= rbine housing ( if I recall correctly) with a water cooled bearin= g. I built the exhaust manifold simply because the Fred Brease mount I boug= ht would not accomodate the cast iron Mazda Turbo manifold.  = ;I selected the On-Center turbine because I wanted the design flexibility i= t offered, and in fact I was able to mount the turbo with the exhaust oulet= facing aft. The down pipe is very short, the intake filter is directly on = the turbo compressor, and to finally get to my point, my turbo is direct mo= unted to the engine with a very short but somewhat large volume 321 stainle= ss manifold.
I decided to give up all the waste gates, blow off valves, remote moun= ts, flex joints, etc. and followed Kelly Johnson's addage: "Add Lightness a= nd Simplicate".
I installed the battery in the back of my RV-8 because RV-8's with Lyc= oming IO-360 & constant speed props need to do this for CG reasons= . I couldn't imagine my 13BT being lighter. Still, lightness is requir= ed, so I work at it. All those accoutraments have there place, an= d maybe I will end up needing some or all of them, but I decided to start w= ith none of them and go forth. I'll add what ever I end up needing.
My turbo air pipe is somewhat long, but it does pass by the left side = of the cowl where I could mount an intercooler with air exit, so I have tha= t as a possibility. If I need a waste gate, I'll just cut a hole in the exh= aust manifold and TIG weld in a bypass pipe with or without some kind of va= lve....I have a spot in mind for that too.
I may be over thinking this whole thing, and that is part of why I bui= ld so slowly.
But I do have 2.5 hours on the EM-2 hobbs meter!!



-----Original Message-----
From: George Lendich <lendich@aanet.com.= au>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@la= ncaironline.net>
Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 2:03 pm
Subject: [Fly= Rotary] Re: Turbo Questions

 Kelly,
Let us all know how well it goes for you i= n the real world application. I can't help but feel we are trying to fit a = square peg in a round hole with Turbo application to Aviation needs.=
 
Personally for myself, as I have stated be= fore, I feel that I would use remote mounted turbo, like some cars use= (to reduce the heat and flow speed to the turbo) and feed it from a bypass= off the exhaust pipe. The by-pass could be controlled manually, for (when = required) application. A wastegate does the same thing but the exhaust= is taken right up to the turbo and carries the heat with it. I think this = would go a long way in controlling heat and over spinning issues.
 
However you need the necessary room to mak= e this possible.
George (down under)
Bob, John and All,
 
     Well I have bit the bullet and made my d= ecision for a turbo............After much research, talking to Bob
and John and conferring with a "Turbonetics" dealer I have ordere= d a TO4E-50 trim (compressor wheel),
wet bearing housing, big shaft "Q" trim (F1-68mm) turbine wheel and&nb= sp;1.15 a/r ratio turbine housing.........
 
     The decision what size turbine wheel and= a/r ratio housing was based on the fact that the f1-68mm
turbine and 1.15 a/r housing causes less exhaust back pressure than th= e smaller wheel (bigger hole) and
will increase rpm less as you increase altitude as opposed to the= F1-65mm wheel plus the 1.15 a/r ratio
housing will slow rpm increase for the same reason............
 
    The decision to go with the 50 trim compressor whee= l (Like John) verses the 60-1 wheel (Like Bob) was
based the "Flow Maps" of both wheels and my uneducated = opinion that the 50 trim wheel would be running
in a more efficient area of the flow map base on the "Air Consumption = Chart" (lbs per min) of the 1.3L 13B
that I submitted to the group in a previous post.............Of course= for all practical purposes there is probably
little discernible difference between any of these turbo configur= ations mentioned.............
 
   At least I have livened up the forum for a while !!......= ......FWIW..................<:)
 
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD= 1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20

<= BR>
From: "Rogers, Bob J." <= BRogers= @FDIC.gov>
To: Ro= tary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net&= gt;
Sent: Tue, August 17= , 2010 5:20:49 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions

Yes, I u= sed the Jet-Hot 2000 coating, shown at this link. http://www.jet= -hot.com/headercoatings.html  I think that it is very= effective to reduce heat in the engine compartment.
<= /FONT> 
It is on= ly applied at the Oklahoma City facility.
<= /FONT> 
Bob
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto= :flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On B= ehalf Of Kelly Troyer
Se= nt: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 3:02 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions
 
Bob,
  Did you have your turbine h= ousing and exhaust pipe coated with heat resistant
=
coating and if so what and where ?= ?.............
 
Thanks,
 
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B R= OTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
 
 
From: " Rogers, Bob J. " <<= A href=3D"http://us.mc839.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DBRogers@FDIC.gov" = target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow ymailto=3D"mailto:BRogers@FDIC.gov">BRogers@= FDIC.gov>
To: Rot= ary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net&g= t;
Sent: Mon, August 16,= 2010 10:57:22 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions
Kelly,
<= /FONT> 
There is= one pretty good picture of the turbo installation (before radiator bafflin= g) on our EAA Chapter 1246 website at:  http://www.eaa1246.org/projectsnplanesdisplay.asp?id=3D10&= amp;pic=3D190. ; Because the oil drains from the turbo into a sump= that is lower than the oil pan, I must use an electric pump to transfer th= e oil back into the engine oil pan.  Attached is a view from the front= , which shows the hoses and tubing from the turbo compressor to the interco= oler and back to the intake manifold. 
<= /FONT> 
Bob
<= /FONT> 
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto= :flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On B= ehalf Of Kelly Troyer
Se= nt: Monday, August 16, 2010 10:02 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions
 
Bob,
   I am waiting on a cla= rification  from "Turbonetics" as to what size turbine wheel
would turn the least rpm as a= ltitude increases.............I know the  turbine housing
a/r ratio is a big factor effectin= g turbine rpm as we climb but it is not clear to me
how the turbine wheel diamete= r and trim factor in.............Air density lessens with
altitude but I am not smart e= nough to know if the larger or smaller turbine wheel
will have the highest rpm because = of this factor as we climb ??.........
 
  Perhaps I am being anal abo= ut this but and you are probably correct that that the
=
effect of a 3mm diameter = ;difference between the two turbine wheels is slight and
probably inconsequential..........= .If any of our multi-talented group members would
like to shine some light on this p= lease jump in here !!..........
 
  On another note do you happ= en to have any photos of your 13B/turbo installation
during construction that you would= care to share with the group ??..........You have
a beautiful (to Rotorheads) and we= ll thought out installation which from your report
is working very well and I am= sure others of the group would like to plagiarize.....<:)=
 
Best Regards, <= /DIV>
   
= Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine<= /FONT>
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil= Manifold
 
 
From: " Rogers, Bob J. " <<= A href=3D"http://us.mc839.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DBRogers@FDIC.gov" = target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow ymailto=3D"mailto:BRogers@FDIC.gov">BRogers@= FDIC.gov>
To: Rot= ary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net&g= t;
Sent: Fri, August 13,= 2010 11:49:06 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions
Kelly, <= /SPAN>
<= /FONT> 
I do not= know which wheel is in my turbo.  I expect the larger wheel (68 mm) t= o turn a little more slowly, since it has a larger surface area to absorb t= he exhaust, but it should not make much difference.  Either one should= be OK.  The Turbonetics people can probably explain the performance d= ifferences between the two wheel sizes.
<= /FONT> 
Bob
<= /FONT> 
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto= :flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On B= ehalf Of Kelly Troyer
Se= nt: Thursday, August 12, 2010 3:44 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions
 
Bob,
  Thanks much for the info...= ..............Just one more question..............Info from "Turbonetics"says the 1.15 a/r turbine housing is limited to the F1-65 mm or F1-6= 8 mm turbine wheel.......
  Do you have info as to what=  turbine wheel was installed in your 60-1 turbo ??..............
 
Thanks Again,
<= /DIV>
 
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B R= OTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
 
 
From: " Rogers, Bob J. " <<= A href=3D"http://us.mc839.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DBRogers@FDIC.gov" = target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow ymailto=3D"mailto:BRogers@FDIC.gov">BRogers@= FDIC.gov>
To: Rot= ary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net&g= t;
Sent: Thu, August 12,= 2010 1:39:26 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Questions
Kelly,
<= /FONT> 
I limit = my takeoff power to no more than 42 =E2=80= =9C of manifold pressure (=E2=80=9CMP=E2=80=9D), usually just 40=E2= =80=9D .  At altitudes of 5,000 feet and above, I generally run no mor= e than about 36 =E2=80=9C MP (15 GPH) and 180 knots.  Engine RPM is ab= out 5,800.  The turbo is capable of considerably more boost than this,= but I have to watch engine water and oil temps at higher power settings.&n= bsp; I do not want to run more than 200 degrees on oil or water and prefer = 180 degrees.  I can maintain these temps (even on hot days) with cowl = flap settings from closed to full open as long as I keep the power settings= at or below those described above.  One day, I climbed to 11,000 feet= and my GPS groundspeed (with a slight tailwind) was 213 knots.  MP wa= s 36=E2=80=9D, RPM 6,000.  I have a 68=E2=80=9D diameter x 84 pitch Prince P-tip fixed pitch prop coupled to t= he RWS 2.17/1 reduction unit.
<= /FONT> 
Bob
=
<= /FONT>
--0-2092557538-1282743697=:11858--